Thoughts on a Tug?

[DeanCHS1980]

Hi All,

I really appreciate everyone's comments and expertise regarding this topic!!!

Cathi, I agree. A newer 4 Runner is not an option for me. Too pricey. I like a 4 Runner, but it would probably need to be 7 to 10 years old to fit in my budget.

Bob, I definitely understand starting with a $10,000 budget and ending up over $20,000. I am going to try to hold to around $10,000, but I am already seeing what an extra few thousand will buy.

Norm and Ginny, I appreciate your questions and musings in terms of how the trailer/tug is going to be used as variables in choosing the best combination. The tug that we buy will serve as a daily driver along with a Honda Fit, thus we do have some flexibility. In terms of how we will camp, good question. Given work demands, I am expecting long weekend trips at least once per month along with longer summer trips. I am busy with university work, but have some flexibility, plus I have been there long enough that I earn 5 weeks of vacation per year in addition to standard university holidays. The cost of operation is important, but is secondary to safety and reliability.

Paul, the Scamp and Escape 5ers are sweet rigs and I assume tow well.

Alan, a Taco V6 Quad Cab would be a great rig imo. I would think it would handle a 16'/17' FG rig. Trying to find a decent one at a decent used price will be the challenge. But, there are other options as well.

Mike, I really appreciate your comments that the tug is not just about pulling, but includes STOPPING as well. All very good points. Any trailer I get, will have trailer brakes! Yes, I have tended to drive small and midsize vehicles my adult life. I did grow up on a small farm and my dad was a logger, so I grew up around larger vehicles, trucks, diesel, and heavy equipment. I don't mind driving a larger vehicle, but I have not needed to do that for most of my adult years.

Lee, LOL! Yup, the DW prefers an SUV, but is open to a pickup as well. The newer Highlander will tow up to 5,000 lbs. I think most of the older ones are limited to around 3,500, but I would consider one!

Mike, I think the at or under 80% of the tugs capacity makes sense. I have never towed a trailer, but I like the "idea" of not using all of the tug's capacity in general. THANKS for the spreadsheet. I am printing it now!!!

Francois, yup, I like your 80% rule of thumb. That is a great looking tug/trailer combo!!!

Floyd, LOL! Motor Trend has picked their lemons over the years. I have only used MT to access their new truck/SUV issue that gives basic information. From there, I have gone on-line to research more regarding trucks/SUVs. With the exception of the Corvair that was around when I was a baby, I grew up remembering Vegas, Chevettes, and Alliances. My girlfriend drove a Vega. It was a piece of junk, but she was hot! BTW, we have been married for 32 years now. LOL, I overlooked the Vega!!! Love the Yoda Doll and your appreciation of Toy Yodas!

David, sounds like that 94' Dodge 2500 was quite a truck. My nephew has one of that vintage. The last time I checked it had nearly 400,000 miles on the engine. He always claimed his early 90s Dodge 2500 was better than his early 2000s Dodge 2500.

Sergey, I am not opposed to a F150. In fact, if I were going to pull a slightly heavier trailer, I think the F150 2.7 Eco-Boost Quad Cab would be my #1 rig. I am trying to stay a little smaller. The older Tundras were 3/4s to 7/8s the size for full-size trucks, thus I am considering them. I would be open to an F150, but that is not were I am focusing.

Wayne, I agree that the Highlander would make an everyday great driver, but the older ones only tow 3,500 and the newer ones that will tow 5,000 are too pricey for me. Otherwise, another great Toy-Yoda!

Gonna keep on looking and gonna keep on bouncing my thoughts off the great folks on FGRV.com!!!

Thanks,

Dean

[floyd]

Originally Posted by Civilguy

There are two different tow weight ratings assigned to vehicles; the total trailer weight and the tongue weight. While most vehicles have tongue weights rated at 10% of the tow rating, this isn't always true. There are some vehicles such as the Volvo V70 that are notorious for having a very low tongue weight capacity relative to their total tow rating.

It sounds like you don't have a trailer yet, which can make this whole exercise a bit edgy as the weights and tongue weights of trailers vary so much. Have you “bought your third RV first” as they say? We towed a 1,600 lb tear drop trailer for a while so I could tow with my old Passat AWD wagon before investing in a tow vehicle. We are now on our second trailer, which did require that upgrade.

Many folks try to stay at or under 80% or so of the nominal ratings. That means keeping the total "real world" weight of the trailer, gear, and liquids at or below 80% of the vehicle's tow ratings. So, your 5,000 lb rating would correspond to a "real-world" 4,000 lb trailer weight, and the 3,500 corresponds to a potentially meager 2,800. However, using 80% or so can help keep the color in your knuckles when you go through an edgy bit of road conditions.

A vehicle's tow rating may require optional-but-necessary equipment such as transmission coolers. VW (and probably others) commonly publish lower tow capacities for pulling a trailer that does not have brakes.

Currently I am towing a lightly-loaded 17' Casita with a new-to-us 2010 Audi Q5. The Casita has a relatively high tongue weight. The Audi apparently has some fly-by-wire electronic enhancements to combat sway, (and perhaps even improve libido and hair growth). To date, I have been very impressed with the overall stability, braking and power. But, I haven't tackled high-plains Wyoming winds yet.

A weight distribution hitch and/or anti-sway gear or a lack thereof might also enter into the calculations. Looking forward, I have corresponded with folks who feel they have been favorably served by the Andersen WDH. I don't feel a strong need for much weight distribution, but I think some anti-sway might be a good thing. You will find that the whole subject of whether to use a WDH is another deep rabbit hole.

I will trust you to select a vehicle appropriate to accommodate the hounds, kayaks, mother-in-laws and muskie poles as you may travel with. I am attaching a copy of a spreadsheet with tow ratings and a “leading consumer magazine’s” summary score for an array of 2015 models. Maybe this will suggest a choice you had missed (Hyundai Santa Fe?). As a 2015 model is not within your budget parameter, you'll need to research whether previous-year models had similar ratings. But it sounds like you are the kind of guy that will enjoy doing that. Good luck Dean.

SOOO... With all the talk of manufacturer's ratings, you say don't trust them?

[jennykatz]

what about a used Honda Pilot 04-08 might work they have a 3.5 v-6 I had the 4 wheel drive (all wheel) and it had a 4500lb tow rating the front wheel drive was rated at 3500lb .mpg was similar to sequia with the 4whl drive We towed a 5000lb boat home 300 miles with no problems but sold it for a 07 Toyota Sequoia with a v-8 (14-20 mpg non towing) towing 12-14 mpg . Jim

[DeanCHS1980]

Hi Jim,

Great minds! Actually, we own a 2005 Honda Pilot EX-L AWD. We bought it this summer for our 17 y/o daughter. It has about 140,000 miles on it, but it is in great shape, plus we bought it from one of my colleagues at work, so we know its history. We got a great deal on it. It does not have the tow package. With the tow package, it would be rated to tow 4,500 lbs if a boat trailer and 3,500 lbs for other trailers. It is a great vehicle for our daughter, but we want a few less miles and more a bit more tow capacity than 3,500 lbs., I think. The new Pilots are rated to tow 5,000 lbs, properly equipped. I appreciate the post. I will check to see if there were Pilots after 2005 rated to tow more than 3,500 lbs for trailers other than boat trailers. Pilots are solid vehicles!

Thanks,

Dean

[Jon in AZ]

Second generation Pilots (2009-2015) are rated for 4500/450 in AWD form. All the towing adds are standard, including cooling upgrades, an integrated receiver, and trailer wiring with a connector for a brake controller, which is nice because (unlike Highlander) you can find a used one equipped to tow that hasn't actually been used for towing.

Beware of issues related to the VCM system (shuts down cylinders under light throttle). There was a class action lawsuit resulting in a limited warranty extension to 8/100K. Hard to say how widespread the issues are- doesn't seem to register in CR data, but continual chatter on the Pilot forum.

We tow a 13' Scamp with a FWD Pilot. At 75K, no VCM issues so far. As a daily driver, it is acceptable, but doesn't get me excited. Very smooth and comfortable for long distance slogs (which I do a lot of), but not much fun in city traffic (which I don't do a lot of). Fuel economy 24-26 on rural 2-lanes @60, 21-23 on interstates @75, 17-19 in city and towing @60.

[honda03842]

We have a 2014 Odyssey, same engine as the Pilot, with VCM. VCM is a concern because it makes the engine more complicated. So far after 30,000 miles it's virtually invisible. I absolutely can not tell how many cylinders are active or when they switch.

On the Interstate we get over 30 mpg consistently driving at 65+ and 35 mpg multiple times all calculated. Driving around FL on their excellent secondary road system at 60 mph were consistently in the high 20s.

The most amazing part is how it does it's job silently. When you step on it it seems to leap into the 6 cylinder mode.

Towing to FL we averaged 18-19 mpg towing our overloaded Scamp 16 and overloaded Odyssey (we were moving and carried well too much but Ginny says '50 years of life condensed into 4 plastic bins, not too bad'.

Only time will tell on with the VCM. What I've learned is their were some engine mount issues in the early years.

[Civilguy]

Originally Posted by floyd

SOOO... With all the talk of manufacturer's ratings, you say don't trust them?

Floyd,

I'm not sure if you are referring to the "80% rule". That one obviously didn't originate with me but I am a conservative kind of guy and I do subscribe to it. I guess you could say I never mind having some additional buffer.

Quick story: we pulled the Casita down I-5 on a dark and stormy night last week. About a hundred miles south of our home I was passing a semi-trailer combination on a curve and noticed the DW quietly gripping the door handle. At that moment I realized that I "knew" that curve.

I used to make the trip between WA and CA several times a year for many years, so much of that 800 miles is imprinted in my memory banks. I had driven that curve in my aged '65 Nova, a '64 VW van, and various other clunkers that I ran in those years. I flashed back to how that particular S curve by the river was always a bit edgy and could serve to make the vehicle feel as though the suspension was floating if you pushed the speed.

Those 15-seconds or so passing the semi with the 4,400/440 lb-rated Audi harnessed to the ~3,000/~400 lb Casita with no sway bar or WDH felt solid as could be. As they say, for everything else there's MasterCard.

[DeanCHS1980]

Hi Jon, Thanks for the information on the 2009 to 2015 Honda Pilots. The fact that they all come with tow packages is SWEET!

Norm and Ginny, I wil study the VCM issue in the Pilots more. It looks like you are really happy and comfy in your Odyssey. I have been very pleased with my three Hondas (1988 Civic, 2004 Pilot - bought used this summer, and 2009 Honda Fit Sport.

Back to that tug research!

Dean

[rdickens]

Dean,

You might try using one of these:

http://www.searchtempest.com
or
http://www.autotempest.com/

Those will search all Craigslist and EBay listings within a specified radius of a location /zip code.

Using those, I found a 2013 Honda Pilot in Hutchinson (Ks) for $9,000.
(Lawrence, Ks Craigslist)

http://lawrence.craigslist.org/cto/5278765536.html

Good luck on your search! 😊

Ray



Sent from my iPad using Fiberglass RV

[Evergreengirl]

Dean, no one has mentioned the Honda Ridgeline, which we ended up with for our tow vehicle and are very happy with. It has a great tow rating, is super comfortable, has a real back seat, and a very useful "hidden" cargo area under the back bed. It's kind of the truck version of the Pilot. To us it seems as useful as a small truck and as comfortable as an SUV. We bought a 2007 model with about 70,000 miles on it, but we did have to spend more than what you've budgeted. Like you, we started out with a smaller budget, but after having many issues with high-mileage used vehicles, we finally decided to spend a little more and get something not quite so used! Just food for thought. Sounds like you're really doing your homework, which I wish we'd done right from the start!

[vintageracer]

Originally Posted by Evergreengirl

Dean, no one has mentioned the Honda Ridgeline, which we ended up with for our tow vehicle and are very happy with. It has a great tow rating, is super comfortable, has a real back seat, and a very useful "hidden" cargo area under the back bed. It's kind of the truck version of the Pilot. To us it seems as useful as a small truck and as comfortable as an SUV.

Dean,

I know 15+ people who have Honda Ridgeline trucks. Most have 4WD. EVERYONE of them has nothing but GREAT THINGS to say about the vehicle. Comfortable, fair fuel mileage, hauls people and cargo safely. 5 of those 15+ people pull a loaded car trailer with ease, safely & comfort. That's MUCH more weight than any fiberglass trailer!

Still a little pricey on the used market however with $10K you have a LOT of em to look at.

Buy a 4WD Ridgeline versus a 2WD front wheel Ridgeline truck. A new Honda Ridgeline will be introduced very soon. First redo since the truck was introduced back in 2005. Should make the older ones a little more affordable used.

Then again it's a HONDA!!!!

[DeanCHS1980]

Hi Ray, Kathy and Mike,

I was just perusing the 2009 Honda Pilot Owners Manual. Jon has been very helpful in pointing out that the 2009 to 2015 Pilots came with the tow package standard. VERY NICE. I just confirmed in the owner's manual that you can tow up to 4,500 lbs with the Pilot IF it is 4WD. VERY NICE. I am open to lots of options, but have been looking at Toyota FJ Cruisers, Tacos, Tundras, and 4 Runners. I am also looking at 2009 Kia Borregos. My DW prefers an SUV, but I am open to a PU. The 4 Runners are at the top of our tentative list. They are pricey used, but VERY reliable. Given we are also Honda fans, I am pleased to find out the 2009-15 Pilots are so capable. At the moment, I am going to assume the Ridgelines are rated the same as the Pilots. I will confirm. In any case, would love to have a creampuff 2009 or later Pilot or Ridgeline (Laura will prefer the Pilot) AWD. Let the research continue!!!

As always, I appreciate the expertise and your thoughts!

Dean

[Civilguy]

<Oops, posted to wrong thread, so deleted.>

[SOCK MONKEY]

I'm going to resurrect this thread just to see if you ended up finding something.
We bought a Bigfoot 17 which I believe is rated at around 2,000 lbs. I towed it home with my 96 Ford Explorer I use as a snowplow no problem, but the year says it all so we need something newer. I'm of the exact frame of mind as Dean the OP.

I've been on the net for a few hours here doing research of recommended tow vehicles for small trailers. My conclusions agree with all posted here so far. Like the : Don't go by what the vehicles specs say. You can almost cut some of those in half, like the Ford Escape most will say is only safe at under 1,500 lbs.
It's real tough to narrow down the search to my goal which is
Under $10,000, lower miles, V6 Auto, and from what I'm reading, it must have a real frame!
I wasn't overly worried about gas mileage, but after seeing how really BAD some vehicles are, I've added that to my "pay attention" list.
Funny thing is older Explorers with respectable mileage can be got for around $3,000 around here, they seem to have a bad rep so are half the price of Rangers. Mines been no problems ever other than standard maintenance. Also Nissan Pathfinders go for around $7,000. Both these have frames,
Only one person has mentioned an important factor for us, and that is COMFORT! There are a lot of vehicles I won't own because they will kill my back after 300K.
Anyhow I will keep an eye out and if I find any useful stuff I'll post links.

Top 15 Light-Duty Tow Vehicles - The Lighter Side - RV Magazine

This one has a PDF for each year going back to 1998 if your looking for specs.

Trailer Towing Guides | Trailer Life Magazine

[DeanCHS1980]

Hi John!

Hey, thanks for reviving my thread for a post or two!!! I am surprised that I did not follow up on this thread. I posted elsewhere, but did not give an update on this thread. Given Laura's preference for a mid-size SUV, our budget of trying to stay close to $10,000, and a desire for the tug to tow a minimum of 5,000 lbs and wanting something that was as reliable as possible, we narrowed our search down to primarily Toyota 4 Runners (2005 to 2007 for price reasons) and Kia Borregos (2009 - only year made in the U.S.). The problem with the 4 Runners is that they are so ding-dang popular!!! However, we did find a 4 Runner 2007 SR5 Limited V8 4X4 the next town over with all the options we wanted other than leather. The asking price was $13,999 with a negotiated price of $11,700. We liked everything about it other than it had 167,000 miles. I know there are 4 Runners out there with 300,000 miles, but I was concerned about the mileage since they were not my miles.

We ended making a 980 mile round trip in 36 hours to southern GA on December 11th and 12th to buy a 2009 Kia Borrego Limited V8 2WD. It is a beauty. Black with black leather interior. Since it is a V8, it is rated to tow 7,500 lbs. It has a 4.6L V8 with 337 hp and 323 lb ft of torque. The EPA MPG is 15 city and 22 hwy. It is the same engine as in the Hyundai Genesis luxury sedan. Actually, since it has a 6 speed transmission rather than the V6's 5 speed, it gets better hwy mileage than in the V6 but not quite as good city MPGs. The V6 is rated to tow 5,000 lbs. I could have gotten a V6, but decided that the lack of real mileage difference between the two, we would go with the V8 for the extra towing grunt. Plus, it had sunroof that Laura wanted along with features that we have never had on a vehicle: power adjusted front seats, power adjustable pedals and steering wheel, navigation, satellite, heat seats front and back, dual-auto HVAC, rear HVAC, DVD player, and security system. Oh, it also has a 3rd row, so it will seat 7. It originally listed for $14,600, but I watched price drops and negotiated $11,750, plus $389 dealer fee. It only had 83,500 miles. Plus, new tires, oil change/filter, air filter, etc. We got 23.5 mpg driving it home. We have not driven it enough to know the city mileage yet.

The Casita is winterized and has the cover on it, so we have not towed yet. I did hookup the Borrego and Casita one day just to say that I have. Pulled it into the street and practiced backing up several times!

Looking forward to using the Borrego to tow the Casita. We have an egg rally in the Smokys in April. Camping with friends in late April. A rally in early June in PA and another June egg rally in KY.

Thanks again for checking in!!!

Take care,

Dean

P.S. - Wishing you the best with your tug search!

[SOCK MONKEY]

an glad your efforts resulted in finding the perfect vehicle. I've got all winter as I doubt we'll go anywhere until May. Now you got me looking for the Kia's too

[DeanCHS1980]

Hi John,

I see you are in BC. Kia sold the Borrego in the United States for only one year (2009). . .economy tanked, gas very expensive, and truck based SUVs were falling out of favor for new crossovers. But, Kia sold the Borrego (Mohave) elsewhere for several additional years, including in Canada. We bought an '08 Kia Rondo brand new several years ago that we have liked, so I had no problem considering the Borrego. Both the V6 and V8 make solid options for used tugs. There are mostly V6s on the market ranging in price from $7,000 to $14,000. The V8s were running from around $10,000 to $14,000. Depending on your interest, they are a "truck" based SUV. They are not a crossover. For this reason, they make easy work of towing, but don't ride as smoothly as some crossovers in terms of daily driver use. Not a problem for me. It rides just fine around town, but has plenty of grunt to tow our Casita. They were Kia's answer to Toyota's 4 Runner. I am very pleased with it.

Keep us posted!

Take care,

Dean

[SOCK MONKEY]

Thanks for the history,, I was going to see if I could find that info so that was great. I only found one in BC
2009 Kia Borrego EX Luxury
They are asking $19,000!!??

I've narrowed it down to looking for that body style and if possible a 2 WD.
The other option is to replace one of our s Subaru's and purchase a tow vehicle that does have 4x4 or all wheel drive. We live at 2,600 up in the mountains. Frount wheel drive only makes it home on a good day. The subarus are unstoppable in snow. My 98 Outback is only rated for 2,000Lb so not a safe option.

[Civilguy]

I see three Bigfoot 17.5's listed on the manufacturer's website ranging from 3,018 to 3,275 pounds dry weight. It appears that older models were somewhat lighter. Some folks note a distrust of manufacturer's published weights, saying that they tend to run lower than actual. Weighing at a scale would resolve any questions in that area.

From the dry weight, you need to add an allowance for the gear you put in the trailer. Byron posted a link to the "real world" weights in post #2 of this thread. The linked data has two Bigfoot 17.5's noted at 2,980 and 4,400 pounds total weight. Some folks use 1,000 pounds as an allowance for fluids and gear, but that will vary in accordance with your personal habits and circumstances. We currently tend to pack light as we don't travel with kids or much in the way of hobby or sports gear. Others carry more, from bikes to barbeques to mercy-knows what.

I don't know that a frame is essential. Opinions vary on that, as you will find that they do on most matters here.

Good luck on your quest John.

[DeanCHS1980]

Hi John,

The prices I listed were in U.S. dollars. Loaded EXs are nice. I assume $19,000 in Canadian currency, not U.S. dollars? Does it have the V6 or V8? Make sure it has the tow package (hitch receiver). Borregos have a nice cover for the hitch, so you don't always know if there is actually hitch receiver or not back there! How many miles?

The dealer had our Borrego originally listed at $14,600. After being marked down a few times, we eventually purchased it for $11,750 with a $389 dealer fee.

I am a Subaru fan, but I have only owned one. Great car. Had to trade it in on a minivan when the girls were little.

Keep us posted on your search!

Take care,

Dean