Tongue weight problem

[redbarron55]

I think that a discussion on Volvo or any European car for towing is an investigation into the specifications for towing in Europe. There are a lot of experts on towing in Europe on the board here and usually on how you need to dot do it and you need at least a 1/2 ton pickup instead.
For quite some time the Euro specs have required that the hitch be mounted in the location specified by the manufacturer's engineers which is usually into the side box frames beside the trunk on either side.
here is a link to one hitch for the Volvo: https://www.rexbo.eu/westfalia/trail...00607&at=19068
Here is a link to the installation manual for the Bosal hitch which may give some information:
http://www.transportsysteme24.de/dok...ung/svo030.pdf

Here are the instructions for the Erich Jaeger electricla kit that also turns on the required trailer stabilazation system for trailers.:

http://www.transportsysteme24.de/dok...ng/13vo050.pdf

This kit is for the 13 pin Euro plug which will have to be modified for the 7 pin US plug.

Since 2007 all cars used for towing must have certificated hitches installed per car manufacturer's instructions with the addition of the T-ESP module to stabilize the combination under tow.

Use the translate function on the browser to read the Transport Systeme 24 website.

The stabilization system is an integral part of the towing requirements in the Euro Zone and to leave it off could be a mistake.

I have ordered from the above distributor with success for my VW.
At the very least the instruction manual should be informative.
In reading It may be that the V70 does not support stabilization, but you should check. I know that the VW does.
The Westfalia (and others have removable towbars. The euro sustem does not usually have the square receiver hitch as an option, but you could add one to the Bosal type.
The Euro standard is a 50 MM ball or about 0.003" smaller than the 2" US.
Since the Westfalia was first my thought is that the 2" standard is copied from that.

[Bob Miller]

Not to mention that the spring bars are attached to the trailers frame, putting additional stress there as well. In summary you are using the frame of the trailer to push down on the front of the TV some 15-20 feet away.


Useful on much bigger, heavier trailers, not so much so on smaller FGRV's, especially the part about stressing the trailers frame.

[Bob Miller]

(Clip from Post #20) "There are a lot of experts on towing in Europe on the board here and usually on how you need to dot do it and you need at least a 1/2 ton pickup instead."


I'm not quite sure what this means, please explain.

[Jon in AZ]

Originally Posted by Paul O.

...I would say that the Volvo engineers should have the last word on what the frame (unibody) can bear.

And that seems to be the crux of the matter in this whole extended conversation regarding WDH covering many threads and different vehicles and manufacturers. The manufacturers won't say. Information from owner's manuals, dealer sources, and manufacturer representatives seems deliberately non-committal.

The Honda-designated rating on my manufacturer-designed and factory-installed hitch is Class III, which generally implies suitability for use with WDH. But the owner's manual says, "Use of a weight distributing hitch is not recommended with this vehicle because an improperly adjusted hitch can affect braking and handling characteristics." They don't recommend it, but they don't forbid it, either. What about a properly adjusted WDH?

In any case, I don't need one for my little Scamp.

[Andrew Gibbens]

Originally Posted by Ellpea in CA

Deets on the V70:
GVW 4690 lbs
Curb weight 3380-3595 lbs
Permissible axle weight, front 2330 lbs
Permissible axle weight, rear 2470 lbs
Max trailer weight w/o brakes 1100 lbs
Max trailer weight w/brakes 3300 lbs
Max tongue weight 165 lbs

That looks very much like the European towing rating for the V70 with a low hitch weight (5% of trailer) which is safe for the low towing speeds allowed in Europe. If those are Volvo's official North American numbers, then you are trapped by the tongue weight limit.

[boardlady]

following your plight with great interest: I recently down-sized my tow vehicle to minimize my carbon footprint. Paying careful attention to towing capacity vs un-loaded fuel efficiency, I settled on a Subaru Outback 3.6, rated at 2700lbs capacity. It never occurred to me that the tongue weight might not be engineered to be in line with the towing capacity. Yet it isn't: at a puny 200#, it permits only a 1500# trailer give or take, if one wishes to maintain a healthy tongue weight ratio. Arrgghh!!

[redbarron55]

Originally Posted by Bob Miller

(Clip from Post #20) "There are a lot of experts on towing in Europe on the board here and usually on how you need to dot do it and you need at least a 1/2 ton pickup instead."


I'm not quite sure what this means, please explain.

Sorry the n and the d got swapped.
Most of the experts on towing with a European car have never towed with one and using their extensive experience with everything else can easily explain why it is unsafe and incorrect.


Sent from my SCH-I605 using Fiberglass RV mobile app

[ORshepherd]

Originally Posted by Bob Miller

(Clip from Post #20) "There are a lot of experts on towing in Europe on the board here and usually on how you need to dot do it and you need at least a 1/2 ton pickup instead."


I'm not quite sure what this means, please explain.

Did you mean you DON'T NEED a 1/2 ton pickup.....right? (or is my irony turned off...:-) )

[ORshepherd]

I have a very interesting link from the UK to share. You'll need t do a litttle converting kg to lbs and find a FGRV alternative....I used the T@B .... You plug in your vehicle and your trailer and it will tell you if it's a good match.

TowCar.info - test your car and caravan outfit

[Paul O.]

Pickup trucks and big engines were taxed* out of existence in Europe long time ago, and their choices in campers are very different. That's what makes it so difficult to compare, and market their cars/SUVs as tow vehicles in this country.
--
*That is by means of vehicle taxes and gasoline taxes.

[Mike Magee]

Originally Posted by Ellpea in CA

Liz,
I would trust the Volvo resources over an RV place.

For one thing, these Volvos DO NOT HAVE A FRAME.

They have a UNIT BODY CONSTRUCTION (explains hubby Ron, the former Volvo dealer). Therefore, there is no way the receiver can be hitched to a frame (evidence your RV guy does not know what he's talking about).

Secondly (as people here have instructed us), the Volvo takes a Class II hitch. There is no WDH for a Class II.

Thirdly, Volvo strictly recommends against a WDH. Ron says this is because of the unit body construction. A WDH *would* distribute the weight, some of it forward to the front axle, but it would do so by putting undue distress on the rear construction of the vehicle.

The upshot is that it is all very confusing, and you really can't listen to just one source. Doing what you (we) are doing and researching among many informed resources before coming to a sensible decision is IMHO the right way to go.

Best,
LP

Unibody or not unibody is not determinative of towing capability. My unibody Highlander is rated for 5000 lbs with 500 hitch weight. Different unibodies have different hitch receiver attachment strength, different suspensions, different brake sizes and different drive trains and cooling systems; these are more determinative.

[MC1]

Originally Posted by ORshepherd

I went to talk to a service manager at an RV place who told me the same thing the Volvo service manager told me.
PLUS!! He looked up the VOlvo and thinks that the hitch is bolted to the plate UNDER THE BUMPER...not to the car frame.

They both also said that a WDH would solve a good deal of the problem....

I tend to agree and in the end the trailer will tow much better and be a safer rig overall.

A RV/good welding shop can reinforce the Volvo 2" receiver so it can properly support and deal with the stresses of the WDH. In other word, bring it up to North American standards so it can tow an North American trailer correctly.

We went through the same exact same issue with our mid sized, unibody car, and the pros at our hitch shop solved the problem. Worked out great.

[Ziggy]

Originally Posted by ORshepherd

What I really want to know is how much wiggle room we have here...

For matters of safety I like the wiggle room to go in the other direction. Personally, I want at least a minimum 10-20% margin of safety. So If I had a 165# max tongue weight I would not put more than 150# MAX on it. That would limit you to a 1500# trailer.

[Paul O.]

Originally Posted by ORshepherd

I have a very interesting link from the UK to share. You'll need t do a litttle converting kg to lbs and find a FGRV alternative....I used the T@B .... You plug in your vehicle and your trailer and it will tell you if it's a good match.

TowCar.info - test your car and caravan outfit

Predictably, no pickup trucks and 5th wheel caravans as far as I can tell. Otherwise still quite interesting!

[Darwin Maring]

Fill the tank full first and check the Weight. One gallon weighs 8 pounds so just maybe, you will not need to move the battery.

[Paul O.]

These folks sell "fifthwheelers" in the UK:
Fifth Wheel at Calder Leisure - Britain's Leading 5th Wheel Company
I bet not very many.

[EllPea in CA]

Originally Posted by Darwin Maring

Fill the tank full first and check the Weight. One gallon weighs 8 pounds so just maybe, you will not need to move the battery.

Darwin, as we were weighing, I got into the trailer myself and went as far to the back as I could (didn't move the table or crawl onto the bunk), and it changed the tongue weight by about 10 pounds. BUT I was just behind the axle, I think, not as far back as the water tank probably is.

However, if we filled the water tank and solved the tongue weight problem, wouldn't we then be too heavy on one side, creating a new and different problem?

[Bob Miller]

I don't think that anyone is saying anything more than to stick by the manufacturers specifications for towing as per the Owners Manual delivered with the vehicle . You don't have to be any kind of an expert for that.


But, as far as adopting European specifications to North American versions of those vehicles, I still subscribe to "What Happens in Europe, Stays in Europe".


Overall I have made more than 20 trips to Europe, and have driven extensively on European roads, including in the old USSR & Eastern Europe, all of Western Europe, Scandinavia and Great Britain. As such I think that I at least have a small idea about how drivers behave in Europe and what the rules of the road are in those countries. It's very different there and the bulk of American drivers would not do well without making major changes in driving habits and attitudes. From adhering to road rules, to NOT modifying and/or reengineering their vehicles.


And, I have towed with European vehicles, two different Volvos, two air-cooled VW Type 181's and a Mercedes diesel, guessing about 10,000 miles of towing or more. But I still don't get the 1/2 Ton Pick-Up reference.

[Bob Miller]

Originally Posted by Ellpea in CA

Darwin, as we were weighing, I got into the trailer myself and went as far to the back as I could (didn't move the table or crawl onto the bunk), and it changed the tongue weight by about 10 pounds. BUT I was just behind the axle, I think, not as far back as the water tank probably is.

However, if we filled the water tank and solved the tongue weight problem, wouldn't we then be too heavy on one side, creating a new and different problem?

Not when you put the battery on the side opposite the water tank. Again, my suggestions are based on what we did with our Lil BigFoot, others experiences may vary.

[EllPea in CA]

Originally Posted by Ziggy

There is a good discussion on Volvo tongue weight here. Max Tongue Weight for Hitch

John, thanks for posting this link. The more I read and explore, the more it seems there is NO agreement on this issue anywhere.

I did copy these paragraphs from one of the posts (this was posted ELEVEN years ago, so weights and limits could definitely have changed):

"First, for the XC90, I found this article (Boats For Sale - Buy & Sell, New & Used Boats, Owners & Dealers) where they put 360 lbs on the tongue, which is almost 2x what Volvo recommends. *Interesting read...

As for the XC70, I started looking at all the international sites that Volvo has (language-selector | Volvo Cars) and I surfed the different countries to see what I can find. *I was able to find on the UK website (United Kingdom | Volvo Car UK Ltd) that they listed the following specifications on their towbars (hitches):

Max Towing Capacity • 1800kg
Tow Ball Diameter • 50mm
Recommended Ball Load • 85kg

So this means that the max towing capacity is about 3960 lbs and the recommended ball load is about 187 lbs. *I guess the cars in UK are built stronger

"


LP