Tow Vehicle - Page 5 - Fiberglass RV


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Old 07-15-2015, 10:34 AM   #57
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Name: JD
Trailer: Scamp 16 Modified (BIGLY)
Florida
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There is no 10% "rule". Common usage in the US is 10 - 15% weight in the tongue, but in Europe it is common to use 7%. The key is to KNOW what the weight is on the tongue and also have a properly setup trailer with the major weight near the axle for a low polar moment of inertia.
The tests on trailers from the 70's bears this out in repeated testing.
Modern front wheel drive cars actually handle this better since their weight bias is toward the front as well. Trucks need more weight on the hitch since they often handle poorly even without a trailer as compared to cars with higher centers of gravity ans unsophisticated suspensions.
On my VW TDI wagon rear suspension is a 5 link IRS and it has negative camber and also a small amount of toe in for better stability that a truck would not have with it's solid rear axle. The roll center of the truck rear axle and the trailer with a solid axle are both very low at the surface of the road, giving a greater tipping tendency as compared to most modern cars.
With the 7% loading on my TDI and the 200 lb hitch rating this would equal 2875 lbs ( I think). I am using this as the limit although the car is rated to tow 3500 lbs from a power and mechanical standpoint. (All above is from the hotly disputed European ratings.) I am not recommending anyone else follow my lead, but my TDI is setup with the factor Towbar and Trailer Electronic Stabilization, just like would be required if towing in the Eurozone by law. There are no comparable laws or regulations in the US and the requirements for equipment and testing is basically unregulated in this country. (for those who want to jump in and say how wrong they are in operating trailers etc.)
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Old 07-15-2015, 10:51 AM   #58
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Lets see... I believe that we are talking about a Volvo V-70 in the U.S. of A., Other vehicles and countries are not a part of this equation.


Particularly for a new trailer owner, let's stick with the 10%+ "Rule of Thumb" for tongue weight. Experienced owners may well be able to get by with less, but I don't see any creditable sources in the U.S. suggesting lower values, and no one is backing the 5% value that Volvo is suggesting.
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Old 07-15-2015, 11:38 AM   #59
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Trailer: Oliver Legacy Elite II, #70
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Folks I am swamped with work right now, so only have a short amount of time for the next few days to catch up on this thread. Have had a few PM's requesting more information regarding my original statement about WDH's vs without and how that affects tongue and tow ratings. I am attaching a quick and dirty photo of the decal/sticker found on the underside of my factory installed receiver hitch that states the tongue and tow rates with and w/o WDH. I would assume most all new vehicles with factory installed tow packages would have something comparable. It is worth noting my 04 Tundra DC did not have a similar sticker, nor did my Tacoma before that either. One CS rep at Ford told me most likely the vast majority of people are towing way beyond their tongue/tow rates based upon this specification.

But in the meantime below are a few links that will provide more information on this situation. For some of you it will be (maybe) a read and it and weep scenario and for others no big deal. I do believe this is important however and as stated so many times I firmly believe you cannot have enough tow vehicle vs getting by the least amount possible regardless of the what you're towing. Ok so Waynes photo might be a bit over the top and funny as hell to boot.

Standardized Tow Rating Procedure Finally Gaining Traction | Edmunds.com

and the link to the actual J2807 specs, however I could not find a successful link that completely describes what these testing procedures really are. If someone has more time to do that great.

J2807: Performance Requirements for Determining Tow-Vehicle Gross Combination Weight Rating and Trailer Weight Rating - SAE International

And finally here is the sticker decal under my F150

It is worth noting when I brought this up with the good folks at Oliver like so many they had never heard of such a thing and because the Olivers tow so well even without a WDH subsequently they did not use or install them on new deliveries. However they do now offer as an option the Andersen WDH. I don't use one and feel my Elite II tows great without it even though I am right at the threshold of limitations without using one. In the short time we have owned our Oliver already we have had a few emergency situations and am thankful I DID NOT have something smaller than my F150 to handle this.

Ok thats my two cents worth for now. Will try and catch up later, but hope everyone finds this at least somewhat helpful.
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Old 07-15-2015, 12:09 PM   #60
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Trailer: Nest fan, Airstream Sold
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jon in AZ View Post
The alternative, older construction method is called "body-on-frame." It allows for a stronger frame for heavy-duty use.

Attachment 86705
Body on frame! Heavy duty??? They are nothing to write home about.

The new SUV's which are top rated tow vehicles are unibody....ie... Ford Expedition, VW Touareg, BMW X5, etc. A WDH works great on them.
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Old 07-15-2015, 12:09 PM   #61
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That FOMOCO label is much like the ones placed on factory hitches on GM vehicles and MAY NOT reflect the towing capacity of the vehicle to which it is attached. It is usually the rating for the hitch, not the vehicle. The disclaimer that FOMOCO includes at the bottom of the label states that "Ratings will vary depending on vehicle equipment. See Owners Manual for specific details" tells it all.


As an example: Even though the manual places towing limits as low as 2000 lbs. and as high as 5700 lbs on certain models, the label used on the factory installed hitches for Chevy Blazers & GMC Jimmy's, states a limit of 6000 lbs, which just happens to exceed, by at least 300 lbs, and as much as 4000 lbs, all of the Owners manual towing specifications for that range of vehicles to which it is attached.


Bottom Line: The towing specifications on the hitch are usually only for the hitch, refer to the owners manual for that vehicle for actual towing values.
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Old 07-15-2015, 12:16 PM   #62
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rob Outlaw View Post
In the short time we have owned our Oliver already we have had a few emergency situations and am thankful I DID NOT have something smaller than my F150 to handle this.
I went to the Ford towing site and did find mention in note 2 of WD for specific weights and configurations.

The Odyssey does not have a factory installed hitch but rather a dealer installed hitch. I'll check for a sticker, I'd be shocked it there's anything because I don't find anything in the manual.

I've towed for 8 years averaging over 7 months a year mostly with a Honda CRV, probably as many towing miles as anyone on the site. The Honda CRV was rated for 1500 lbs (3300 lbs in Europe) and a tongue weight of 220 lbs in both the NA and Europe.

I've had two 'emergency situations' towing a 2600 lb trailer with a tongue weight of 200 lbs, a tongue weight of about 7.5%. In both events the trailer was well behaved. In both cases we had our anti-sway bar in place. We initially towed without an anti-sway bar again without any issues, adding ithe anti sway because it was good insurance.

I believe a massive vehicle insures nothing except possibly over confidence and higher speeds. I have met two people who have lost control of their 'properly' connected trailers, both with rated vehicles, at least one with a WD hitch and still rolled the trailer. Knowledge is at least as important as equipment.
I believe there's also some one on this site that had a similar experience rolling a trailer with a rated vehicle or at least having a severe sway situation..

As a group we seem to focus on transferring information on equipment and very few word on towing knowledge or towing skills.
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Old 07-15-2015, 12:47 PM   #63
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Trailer: Scamp 16 Modified (BIGLY)
Florida
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When they did trailer testing in the 70s they found that the critical factor was the G loading that it took to get the combination to go from understeering to oversteering. The loading that they wound wad critical was 0.3 G lateral load.
Over 130 combinations were tested using nine trailers and five cars
Here is a graph from the tests referring results with a 2500 lb 15 ft travel trailer vs various car weights and tongue loading.



My VW Sportwagen weighs in at GVWR of 4454 and 200 lb hitch load puts it within the allowable range.

Excerpi fot section on trailer swing:



Summarized test results:



Just food for thought.

If someone would tell me how to upload a file I would be glade to upload the SAE J2807 testing requirements.
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Old 07-15-2015, 12:57 PM   #64
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As an aside the information as to skill and the time it takes to recognize an oscillation or other handling problem and correct (in the proper manner) is very short. This is why the electronic trailer stability is of such importance. I went to the trouble of purchasing from Germany the proper wiring kit and module to make the T-ESP for the VW work on my Sportwagen. This setup not only modifies the engine and transmission programming profiles for towing, but also engages the T-ESP that detects the incipient instability and corrects before the driver is fully aware of what is happening. The system will brake or add power to (front wheels for power of course) the individual wheels and control the over all throttle as required and also give steering clues to initiate proper direction of travel.
This system is REQUIRED in Europe! Along with tested and certified trailer load ratings and equipment! Trailer stabilization is just now coming into the US, but has been required in the Euro zone since 2006 for new cars and trucks including over the road tractor trailers.
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Old 07-15-2015, 01:14 PM   #65
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Tow conservative until you know "better".
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Old 07-15-2015, 07:42 PM   #66
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Originally Posted by George in New Mex View Post
We're new to all of this, just reading, nothing owned yet. Wife and I are considering a 17 ft. Casita or Oliver in a couple of years. We know our 4 cylinder car won't be adequate. We don't want to drive a gas hog, but do any of you have recommendations on the engine required in a tow vehicle to be able to comfortably pull such a trailer (long hauls on the interstates, up steep mountain roads, etc.? We would really appreciate recommendations.
I just lost my long response so if you don't want a Tacome/4-runner/highlander v6 or their equivalent, you should step down to a 16 Casita. Then you could consider fwd minivans or SUVs.

There is a spreadsheet on the site that lists member's tow vehicle/trailer combinations. You Will quickly see the what folks do with their own money.

Don't ask lawyers for towing advice - you won't have any money left for a trailer.
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Old 07-15-2015, 08:23 PM   #67
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Fwiw, I see that the Nissan Pathfinder is available with a V6 and with the tow package is rated to 5000 lbs. Might wanna check prices on those, as they don't seem to be ridiculously high.
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Old 07-15-2015, 08:33 PM   #68
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Why would one ask a Lawyer for towing advice?
But they are very handy for liability advice.... a $100 investment can save a million.....
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Old 07-16-2015, 12:17 AM   #69
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OK, here are the specs on my V70. It is a 2002, not a XC, but it is a turbo. It is a FWD.

The manual states:

Maximum trailer weight:
trailers without brakes: 1100 lbs
trailers with brakes 3300 lbs
recommended hitch tongue load is:
trailer weights below 2,650 lbs: 110 lbs
trailer weights above 2,650 lbs: 165 lbs
I'm worried that the tongue weight doesn't give me the options I thought I had. Yet, I'm seeing photos of Volvos towing dual axle Airstreams!

Ideally, I'd like to find a 16' Scamp (or similar) with shower, etc. If I could be assured this car could handle that w/o problems I'd really go for it! We do live in a river valley, and to travel anywhere else we need to go through mountains. To get to the coast, which is really only about 100 miles away, there are 4 summits (at least) to get over. So road-wise is really different from as the crow flies around here!

Thanks for the valuable discussion!

LP
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Old 07-16-2015, 12:25 AM   #70
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Stats didn't show in your post, but in any event, I'd be extremely reluctant to tow anything with an almost 14-year-old vehicle.
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