Towing 13' Scamp 2004 with Outback

[thrifty bill]

Originally Posted by Jon in AZ

Meet Frontal Area. He’s a shy fellow, rarely seen but often felt. He inconveniently observes that J2807 under-specs the physical size of trailer used for testing purposes in every weight category. At speed or against a headwind, the aerodynamic effect of excess frontal area is significant and only partly mitigated by the rounded shape of some molded trailers.

His more gregarious companion is Common Sense, who warns that even a rigorous test like J2807 is standardized and therefore limited. Sooner or later, people who blindly accept its results will encounter conditions- or often a combination of. conditions- that exceed test parameters.

I believe their credentials were earned at the School of Hard Knocks. I met them on the side of I-8 headed into San Diego while waiting for my overheated transmission to cool down.

There is also the guy named "sucker", alternate name is "fool". That would be me when I bought my first RV trailer. RV dealer assured me my rig was more than capable of pulling the trailer I was buying, "no problem". Hearing what I wanted to hear led me to doing no research on my own.

Later when I was pulling the trailer up Vantage Pass on I-90 in WA state, pulling a long grade out of the desert. I learned my true name at that point, cresting the top of the hill at 29MPH, slower than the big rigs, and smoke pouring out from the hood. Yes, I was pretty stupid.



This is the truth: "I learned for sure is that very few owners seem to know the exact weight of their trailer, taking the dry weight as the true number or approximating it and passing that along to buyers." This is not limited to private sellers, RV dealers tend to do the same thing. I have friends that bought a trailer from Camping World. Camping World gave them a weight to use to base their tow vehicle on. I told them, before you give Camping World your money, have them run that trailer across a certified scale (such a scale was within about 2 miles of Camping World). Of course, they didn't ask, their TV turned out to be undersized, and they ended up buying a new truck.

It would be interesting to poll trailer owners. I bet less than 10% have ever gotten a real, certified weight on their rig, maybe more like 1%. Yet, they all can tell you how much their trailer weighs......

[floyd]

Originally Posted by Jon in AZ

Meet Frontal Area. He’s a shy fellow, rarely seen but often felt. He inconveniently observes that J2807 under-specs the physical size of trailer used for testing purposes in every weight category. At speed or against a headwind, the aerodynamic effect of excess frontal area is significant and only partly mitigated by the rounded shape of some molded trailers.

His more gregarious companion is Common Sense, who warns that even a rigorous test like J2807 is standardized and limited. Sooner or later, people who blindly accept its results will encounter conditions- or often a combination of. conditions- that exceed test parameters.

I believe their credentials were earned at the School of Hard Knocks.

Ahh! Common Sense, so often impersonated by Incompetence and Arrogance as to confuse the casual observer!

One common imposter is a sort of fear mongering pseudo-iconoclast,which, while wearing a convincing disguise, actually rejects all advice from the authentic article and his cousins, Physics and Engineering, in favor of superstition and petulance.


Common Sense's strongest appeal is that he can be "all things to all people" and is, as you say, "gregarious"... A great host, serving all the favorite flavors of Kool-Aid.


Before accepting any advice from "Common Sense" one should ask for references to authenticate his identity from such stalwarts as Physics, Engineering and that often maligned curmudgeon, "Experience"... who often is the only one who can hope to identify the imposters.


As for frontal area, it is merely a factor to be considered, unfit to be a purveyor of advice.
Perhaps our old friend Skepticism should be a bit higher on our list of consultants.
He questions all sources!

[Tony D]

Argh...much information is not the key to decision making, good information is. The best place to start is the manual. Engineers design things to a requirement then they should test the product and document the results. This will lead to manuals for the operator. When it comes to operating my stuff I should know what’s in the manual before I search out more information. By the way the 2004 outback 3.6 liter can tow a trailer weighing 3000 lbs, while the 2.5 liter 4 cylinder can pull 2700 lbs per the manual. Note that they are close but not the same. I’d also bet that the bigger engine will perform better on a hill, at least going up.

This info needs to be processed to be useful. First off I trust the engineers at Subaru pretty well. I do not have much experience to rely on so I consult with trusted people with experience that I have access to. I should also do some research to get the perspective of experts. Then I should formulate a position and present it for scrutiny. Only after this is done should I drop a wad of cash on a new toy and subject my wife and the rest of the driving public to my activity. Then I learn and grow as a fiberglass RV camper. Two of my goals are to not hurt anybody and not to blow anything up. However, I will go camping to see what’s out there.

A lot of this thread seems to be rationalization justifying people’s decisions and expectations. That’s fine and I appreciate the input, but it is too much for me to decipher. I guess I should just enjoy the banter.

[thrifty bill]

Quote from Floyd: "Before accepting any advice from "Common Sense" one should ask for references to authenticate his identity from such stalwarts as Physics, Engineering and that often maligned curmudgeon, "Experience"... who often is the only one who can hope to identify the imposters."


This is exactly the advice I gave my friends that bought from Camping World. Camping World had their towing "expert" that told them they could ignore the sticker from Ford. And they did.

So I asked the simple question: "So what credentials did that Camping World have that superseded the Ford engineers?"

Ultimately they towed the rig home 30 miles. By the time they got home, they realized the CW "expert" was not an expert after all. And two cabinet doors fell off on the trip home. Quality....

As far as people on this or any forum, all we really have are "opinions". Short of some retired Subaru engineer who calculated tow ratings, that's all we have here.

And as pointed out above, in each manual is the information from the car manufacturers engineers.

What does somewhat bother me is when someone does something that totally disregards the manufacturer's guidelines, say tow with a Toyota Prius (or whatever), a car where the manufacturer recommends no towing. Anyway, they then encourage others: "you can do it, I've been doing it for years."

Now if others decide to tow with a vehicle that has a tow rating far in excess of their trailer, so be it.

[Jon in AZ]

I'm not really sure why we're having this conversation. Nothing in the OP's post or responses indicated any intention of exceeding any manufacturer ratings. In fact she expressed a desire to leave a 20% margin- towing at or below 80% of the manufacturer tow rating.

Floyd raised a valid question: why 20% and on whose authority? Of course he knows there is no particular reason or consensus regarding 20%- some people insist you should leave a 50% margin- nor any authority beyond the actual manufacturer tow rating.

I gave my take on the "20% Rule" in post #10 (short version: it depends) and my rationale in post #20 (short version: towing in conditions exceeding the SAE J2807 tow testing parameters used by manufacturers to validate the ratings). I offered no authority but my own experience towing in severe conditions at about 90% of the manufacturer rating.

I think the OP's conservative approach is justifiable, even if not mandatory. In any case, the Outback's tongue weight rating of 200# is even more restrictive.

[Mike J. L.]

We have a 13' Scamp, though a lighter one than yours, and have pulled it with two Outbacks. The first was a 2008 4-cylinder and it did fine. It was slow to accelerate and struggled going up mountain passes, with the transmission shifting into a very low gear and the engine racing. But it did the job.
Then we got a 2013 Outback 6-cylinder. The difference is huge. We can tow the Scamp anywhere with ease and actually get better mileage when towing than we did with the 4-cylinder.

[Winnipeg Pete]

Anne, it sounds like you’re getting some good advice on this thread. I would like to suggest something, that will increase the efficiency and longevity of your Subaru Outback’s transmission.
The #1 cause of transmission failure is overheating. Adding an easily obtainable aftermarket supplementary Transmission Cooler will make a significant difference for your vehicle, especially on hilly or mountainous roads. These small, bolt-on “radiators” can be obtained for less than $150, complete with hoses and mounting hardware. If you’re not mechanically inclined, ask your mechanic to give you a quote for purchase and installation. Even with paying for professional installation @$100 an hour, this is cheap insurance and your car will perform WAAAAAY better on hills, I promise you.
*Note: ALL CVT equipped vehicles have a factory Tranny cooler, however they are not optimized for Towing. Do NOT listen to naysayers who dismiss this suggestion out of hand - please read up on the topic and see for yourself. You won’t regret it.*

[Denece]

We towed the much lighter CompactII with our much wimpier Forester 4c. Going up the I70 grade in Colorado we dropped to 15mph in second gear with the engine screaming and no place to pull over. Never again!

[TracyG]

Lot's of good advice here. I'm just going to say, that I read the towing capacity of the 4-cyl, 2.5L Outback and bought one to tow my Scamp 13. THEN I read the owner's manual, which said, yeah, you can do it, if you have trailer brakes and you only go 35 mph when going uphill in the summer (exactly what I do). So I sold it and bought a 6-cyl Subaru Tribeca. I feel safer towing with that.

[Doc Wood]

So we have a 13' scamp with bathroom and tow it with our 2015 Outback, 4 cylinder engine with no worries. Have towed out to Vermont and the UP of Michigan from Ohio. In fact, the thing is so light that I add water to the tank so that it prevents the anti-lock brakes on the trailer from responding when I am driving slowly and making a turn. (Had to call the break manufacturer to figure out that the trailer was too light for the breaking mechanism to understand what was going on at low speed.)

My gas mileage is a constant 18 mpg with the trailer...most trucks don't get that without a trailer. It pulls easily, even over the Mackinaw bridge is a fairly gusty wind.

Have fun!

[Iris in Florida]

Originally Posted by Anne MP

Hi. We are considering buying a 2004, 13' Scamp and pulling it with our Subaru Outback, The seller weighed the trailer today and it came in at 1580lbs. It has the factory installed A/C, awning, bathroom in front. The Outback is rated to tow 2700lbs but with two people, adding a propane tank, and our stuff, it seems reasonable that we will be in the 2150lbs range. That is just at the 20% mark recommended for safe towing.



I'd love to hear from anyone who has pulled their trailer when the weight is this close to the safe tow limit? Thanks for your thoughts and experience.


Anne MP

Hi Anne, A small placard inside my Subaru Outback 2012 states: Combined weight of passengers and cargo should not exceed 900 lbs. Yours may be different. Tongue weight is part of that cargo. Tongue weight can be measured at home by loading the camper ready to go, and a bathroom scale will tell you. Mine was 185 lb a while back. Add the weight of passengers and stuff in the car - there is a number for you! Tongue weight is of course affected a lot by putting weight forward of the trailer's axle. I am planning on a Casita, but will not tow with my present car. For my little A-Liner, I use only one propane tank, put the battery (gel) inside behind the axle, and closely watch distribution of weight inside the camper, front to back, and side to side. In my case,the dry weight of the camper is allegedly 1237 lbs, but without battery and propane tank. I estimate that the entire camper with everything ready to go weighs at most 1500 pounds, and the tongue weight is fairly close to the Subaru's limit of 200 lbs. I installed a brake controller, even though it is not required in my state, and drive at a reasonable speed, for me that means no more than 65 mph. The Subaru took me all the way to Utah - and back! Visited the Casita factory on the way, and that's what I want.

[Susan Kryworuchka]

Hi! We were able to pull a 13' Boler with our Subaru Impreza.

[Steve PDX]

Originally Posted by Anne MP

Hi. We are considering buying a 2004, 13' Scamp and pulling it with our Subaru Outback, The seller weighed the trailer today and it came in at 1580lbs. It has the factory installed A/C, awning, bathroom in front. The Outback is rated to tow 2700lbs but with two people, adding a propane tank, and our stuff, it seems reasonable that we will be in the 2150lbs range. That is just at the 20% mark recommended for safe towing.



I'd love to hear from anyone who has pulled their trailer when the weight is this close to the safe tow limit? Thanks for your thoughts and experience.


Anne MP

We pulled our 13 ft Scamp for several years with our 2003 Outback. For the most part, it did well. On steep uphills, though, it would noticeably slowdown. We live out west, so for example, on mountain passes we had to settle for 45-50 mph. We upgraded to a Ford Escape and the difference was notable - we can actually accelerate going uphill even on steeper grades. Depending on where you intend to go and how fast you want to get there, the Outback will tow it ok though it has its limits.

[floyd]

Originally Posted by Denece

We towed the much lighter CompactII with our much wimpier Forester 4c. Going up the I70 grade in Colorado we dropped to 15mph in second gear with the engine screaming and no place to pull over. Never again!

Having owned and towed both Scamps and Compact trailers I will say that the heaviest Scamp13 will tow much better than the lightest Compact.
The CompactII is a brick compared to to the Scamp Aerodynamically.

Any discussion of weight without the inclusion of frontal area and aerodynamics is a canard.


Proof of this would be ...
Take an empty rooftop carrier mounted on the roof and compare the mileage to the same car with an equal volume of actual cargo inside the car with no rooftop carrier.


That is not to be construed as an endorsement of wimpy vehicles.