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Old 12-12-2017, 01:02 PM   #241
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In reference to that ABS show on unintended acceleration they did test a Toyota Verenza. After a few moments the brake system displayed an error and shut down brake assist. At that time throttle overpowered brakes and the vehicle gained speed. Also the design of push button starting and gated shifters sometimes prevent a simple act of putting in neutral or shutting ignition off. At any rate I believe Toyota learned Audi's lesson and reprogrammed their cars to override throttle when brake is applied.

<snip>
I ran a simple experiment and pressed the "start" (= stop) button on the Jeep the other day while driving at a slow speed. The dashboard display promptly advised me that I would need to put the vehicle into Park in order to stop the engine. I did not attempt that. The experience left me troubled; I have used the ignition to shut off an engine in an emergency in the distant past.

Our 2010 Q5 had an electrical emergency brake. It always struck me that having an electrical circuit interposed between me and the brakes during an emergency was a suspect proposition. In the event, I never had the opportunity to put it to the test in an emergency.

I have read articles on sudden unintended acceleration since the reported issues with the (~134 HP) Audi 5000 in the eighties, to the Toyotas more recently. Like many, I had always suspected user errors as a primary cause.

Now, over time, my thinking has shifted and I am not so sure that necessarily applies to some of the newer vehicles. This fly-by-wire stuff is troubling. Between "tin whiskers" in electronic circuits, and the significant role of programming in how vehicles operate, I don't think it's so simple or cut-and-dried anymore.
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Old 12-12-2017, 01:17 PM   #242
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From Washington Post:

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/...=.abae6f1faf4a
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Old 12-14-2017, 06:40 AM   #243
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I ran a simple experiment and pressed the "start" (= stop)

[snip]
This fly-by-wire stuff is troubling. Between "tin whiskers" in electronic circuits, and the significant role of programming in how vehicles operate, I don't think it's so simple or cut-and-dried anymore.
Where's the "like" button!!!

Joe
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Old 12-14-2017, 07:23 AM   #244
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I recall decades ago when a motorcycle manufacturer was sued (and lost the case) when a rider had the throttle stick open. The particular bike did not have a engine cut off switch (commonly called a kill switch), which is what the case was built on.

Of course, the motorcycle still had a clutch and an ignition switch, both of which I would use in an emergency before the kill switch.
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Old 12-14-2017, 01:12 PM   #245
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The electric parking brake in your Q5 (and other VAG vehicles) performs an ABS stop down to about 7mph then the parking brake motors apply. About as reliable now days as a cable to the parking brake given the amount of road salt and rust in the midwest and new england states.

The Toyota (and Lexus if memory serves me) you don't just push the Start/Stop button, but rather hold it for a few seconds and push something else. The VWs I work on require similar antics so you don't accidentally shut the engine off while putting your gadget in the change tray.

Have you seen the Bosch system where hydraulic brakes were replaced with linear electric motors? Mercedes even had steer by wire for a couple years.

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Old 12-15-2017, 12:49 PM   #246
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Originally Posted by SilverGhost View Post
The electric parking brake in your Q5 (and other VAG vehicles) performs an ABS stop down to about 7mph then the parking brake motors apply. About as reliable now days as a cable to the parking brake given the amount of road salt and rust in the midwest and new england states.

The Toyota (and Lexus if memory serves me) you don't just push the Start/Stop button, but rather hold it for a few seconds and push something else. The VWs I work on require similar antics so you don't accidentally shut the engine off while putting your gadget in the change tray.

<snip>
Thanks Jason. From the JGC's manual:
"If the vehicle speed is above 5 mph (8 km/h), the ENGINE START/STOP button must be held for two seconds (or three short pushes in a row) to turn the engine off. The ignition will remain in the ACC mode (NOT the OFF mode) if the engine is turned off when the transmission is not in PARK."
That's probably something I wouldn't want to be flipping through the manual to locate when I really needed it.

Your comment about the cable is well-placed. Increases in features are generally accompanied by increases in complexity. It's not unnatural to feel oneself out of the loop as time marches on and things continue to change. It just requires in turn that we remain lifelong learners and continue to educate ourselves.

I am probably due for another session with the operator's manual for this new-to-me vehicle. I typically reserve those sessions for when I am having trouble sleeping. I have found they serve the dual purposes of getting me edumacated, and also back to sleep.
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Old 12-15-2017, 01:19 PM   #247
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I was puzzling over "VAG" vehicles when it suddenly came to me... Volkswagen/Audi Group...

Complexity begets cost begets more complexity... You have to protect those valuable components from bonehead drivers.

I had owned my 1993 Subaru Legacy less than four months, my first vehicle with a console-mounted automatic shift lever after many years of driving standards. I was returning from a cross-country ski outing on icy, snow-packed mountain roads. After topping a hill at about 30-35 mph, I encountered mayhem. A 4x4 pick-up and an SUV were already in the ditch on the right side of the road, and oncoming traffic was fishtailing in and out of my lane trying to get up the same hill I was now descending. The Suburban in front of me hit the brakes and immediately started sliding to the right and sideways.

Don't touch the brakes, I thought. Downshift. So I did, except my downshift instinct from years of manual transmissions was to shove the lever forward. Into park. Something didn't feel right even as I did it- oh yeah, no clutch- so I yanked the lever back. Too late. It caught in reverse with a thump and killed the motor. So now I was headed downhill on solid ice toward an accident scene, engine off, transmission in neutral (maybe in little pieces by now), no power steering or brakes.

The lack of power steering and brakes probably saved the day because it meant no sudden moves. I managed to steer around the Suburban as it slid into the ditch, avoided oncoming cars and people wandering around the scene waving their hands ineffectually, and eventually came to a stop a several hundred yards down the road pointed up the next hill.

I restarted the engine, put it in gear, and drove that car for another 200K miles.

Enjoy the act of driving while you still can!
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Old 12-15-2017, 01:28 PM   #248
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amazing

jon that is an amazing story!!!


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Old 12-15-2017, 04:00 PM   #249
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Originally Posted by Jon in AZ View Post
I was puzzling over "VAG" vehicles when it suddenly came to me... Volkswagen/Audi Group... LOL!

Complexity begets cost begets complexity... You have to protect those valuable components from bonehead drivers.

I had owned my 1993 Subaru Legacy less than four months, my first vehicle with a console-mounted automatic shift lever after many years of driving standards. I was returning from a x-country ski outing on icy, snow-packed roads. After topping a hill at about 30-35 mph, I came on a scene of mayhem coming down the other side. A 4x4 pick-up and an SUV were already in the ditch on the right side of the road, and ongoing traffic was sliding all over the place trying to get up the same hill I was descending. The Suburban in front of me hit the brakes and immediately started sliding to the right and sideways.

Don't touch the brakes, I thought. Downshift. So I did, except my downshift instinct from years of manual transmissions was to shove the lever forward. Into reverse. Something didn't feel right even as I did it- oh yeah, no clutch- so I yanked the lever back. Too late. It caught in reverse with a thump and killed the motor. So now I was headed downhill on solid ice toward an accident scene, engine off, transmission in neutral, no power steering or brakes.

The lack of power steering and brakes probably saved the day because it meant no sudden moves. I managed to steer around the Suburban as it slid into the ditch, joining the other two, and eventually came to a stop a quarter of a mile down the road pointed up the next hill.

I restarted the engine, put it in gear, and drove that car for another 200K miles.

Enjoy the act of driving while you still can!
Great and graphic story! (but that was sure a long ways home!)
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Old 12-15-2017, 05:41 PM   #250
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...but that was sure a long ways home!
I felt so embarrassed at pulling such a bonehead move with an almost-new car that I wanted to get far, far away from the scene of ignominy...

Based on Mike's post, it sounds like if I did the same in a 21st century vehicle, it would simply talk back to me and ignore my instructions. Vehicular adolescence...
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Old 12-15-2017, 06:27 PM   #251
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Originally Posted by Jon in AZ View Post
I felt so embarrassed at pulling such a bonehead move with an almost-new car that I wanted to get far away from the scene of ignominy...

Based on Mike's post, it sounds like if I did the same with a 21st century vehicle, it would simply talk back to me and ignore my instructions. Vehicular adolescence...
I once had two Mercury Cougars. one a stick and one an automatic.
One day I drove the automatic and discovered PARK where second gear should have been! Left foot hit the wide brake and the floor shift went to park. Luckily no harm done and even more luckily nobody saw it happen!
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Old 12-15-2017, 11:17 PM   #252
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Originally Posted by Jon in AZ View Post
I felt so embarrassed at pulling such a bonehead move with an almost-new car that I wanted to get far, far away from the scene of ignominy...

Based on Mike's post, it sounds like if I did the same in a 21st century vehicle, it would simply talk back to me and ignore my instructions. Vehicular adolescence...
You jarred my memory. Nothing new under the Sun - one just like this "talked" to us 30 years ago!
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Old 12-16-2017, 02:25 AM   #253
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I once had two Mercury Cougars. one a stick and one an automatic.
One day I drove the automatic and discovered PARK where second gear should have been! Left foot hit the wide brake and the floor shift went to park. Luckily no harm done and even more luckily nobody saw it happen!
Well you jogged an old memory Floyd. My car was a 3 on the tree and I borrowed my Moms '64 Caddie one day. Took off, grabbed the gear shift lever to shift, hit the floor with my left foot and realized there was no clutch pedal....glad I stopped moving the gear shift before it shifted into park. I can hear her now saying I must have been racing with her car. No Mom, I was just leaving the driveway .
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Old 12-16-2017, 05:25 PM   #254
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Originally Posted by Jon in AZ View Post
I felt so embarrassed at pulling such a bonehead move with an almost-new car that I wanted to get far, far away from the scene of ignominy...

Based on Mike's post, it sounds like if I did the same in a 21st century vehicle, it would simply talk back to me and ignore my instructions. Vehicular adolescence...
Jon, blame it on muscle memory... a thing that takes over in many situations and often saves our bacon, but occasionally works against us like in your situation.
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