Towing Capacity

[Mike in WIS]

Originally Posted by Mike Magee

I wonder how long before CGs prohibit lumber, too? After reading recently about the Forest River trailer someone bought, only to discover that the lumber they built it with was infested with beetles!

Not likely scrap lumber will be prohibited, but sounds like a potential big problem for Forest River!

[floyd]

Originally Posted by Mike in WIS

There are other factors to consider, as well, such as:
- what is your load for the trip? For example, are you filling the back of your Tow Vehicle with firewood? If so, you might create an unstable and unsafe driving condition
- what is the profile of your trailer? If it is tall, it can act like a sail in windy conditions, or when passed from behind by a semi. It is not fun to find yourself in that situation!
- you can buy a decent WD hitch with a sway bar for $300. Small price to pay for stability and safety, IMHO

You are correct when you point out that sufficient weight on the tongue is usually what is needed to avoid sway. The problem of safety arises when the weight on the tongue causes the front of your vehicle to be higher than the back. Good way to lose traction and control. To each, his own, but we’ve tried it both ways and I am very glad we installed a WD hitch. I want my wife to feel comfortable driving our rig when I get sleepy and it’s time to switch drivers.

Just as a friction sway device is not made to compensate for an improperly balanced trailer, a WDH is not designed to compensate for an overloaded tow vehicle.

[Mike in WIS]

Seems to be some resistance to the concept of WDH’s and sway reduction. Why is that?
With all due respect, I never said or implied it was to “compensate for an overloaded tow vehicle”.
From etrailer.com:

“A weight distribution system helps to ensure a smooth, level ride and allows you to tow to the maximum capacity allowed by your hitch. It also helps to correct tow vehicle sag, improve steering and stopping, and - when used with sway control - correct trailer sway.”

[k0wtz]

just saw a guy removing pieces of tin off his fairly new 5th wheel camper today!

bob

[floyd]

Originally Posted by Mike in WIS

Seems to be some resistance to the concept of WDH’s and sway reduction. Why is that?
With all due respect, I never said or implied it was to “compensate for an overloaded tow vehicle”.
From etrailer.com:

“A weight distribution system helps to ensure a smooth, level ride and allows you to tow to the maximum capacity allowed by your hitch. It also helps to correct tow vehicle sag, improve steering and stopping, and - when used with sway control - correct trailer sway.”

I use a friction sway device religiously, as a supplement to a properly balanced trailer.
A WDH would be just silly on a Scamp13 and I never used or needed one when towing my car trailer or utility trailer.
Still I have no resistance to the concept of sway control or WDHs when needed and properly used.

Pardon me but...
I did logically infer that you meant to "compensate for an overloaded tow vehicle" when you stated...
Quote:
"For example, are you filling the back of your Tow Vehicle with firewood? If so, you might create an unstable and unsafe driving condition."

[frank_a]

I did not read through this whole thread, but be aware there is frontage concerns, i.e., many vehicles advertising 3500#s are meant for towing low profile boats or tent trailers. We ran into that with our Escape. We finally figured out we need to tow in "S" or special (low) gear, but with a trailer as tall as the Parkliner, it is no fun. My F150 died a terrible death two years ago, but we will be buying a newer truck next year for towing the Parkliner or whatever else we might get in the future.

Frank

[rbryan]

Originally Posted by Mike in WIS

Seems to be some resistance to the concept of WDH’s and sway reduction. Why is that?
With all due respect, I never said or implied it was to “compensate for an overloaded tow vehicle”.
From etrailer.com:

“A weight distribution system helps to ensure a smooth, level ride and allows you to tow to the maximum capacity allowed by your hitch. It also helps to correct tow vehicle sag, improve steering and stopping, and - when used with sway control - correct trailer sway.”

I use a WDH. I've no "resistance" to using one if needed. In many cases, particularly with a lightweight fiberglass trailer, it is not needed. As for sway, if you have none, there's no need to reduce it.

[frank_a]

I agree Bryan. We've never had problems with sway in the Parkliner, but have had other trailers we have used WDH's on.

If we get a good sized pickup and a larger travel trailer, there is no question in my mind we would start out with a WDH.

Frank

[Mike in WIS]

Originally Posted by floyd

I use a friction sway device religiously, as a supplement to a properly balanced trailer.
A WDH would be just silly on a Scamp13 and I never used or needed one when towing my car trailer or utility trailer.
Still I have no resistance to the concept of sway control or WDHs when needed and properly used.

Pardon me but...
I did logically infer that you meant to "compensate for an overloaded tow vehicle" when you stated...
Quote:
"For example, are you filling the back of your Tow Vehicle with firewood? If so, you might create an unstable and unsafe driving condition."

My point was that an unbalanced load, heavy at the back end, could easily create an unstable driving condition, which is not necessarily the same thing as being overloaded. Sorry for any confusion.

[Cathi]

You are on the right track if you go to a 5,000 towing capacity vehicle. But you need to look at other numbers besides that, as that one alone can be deceiving (sometimes incorrect AFAIAC). Need to get the GCWR given by the manufacturer and the GVWR and have all of them straight for any tow vehicle you are considering. Know those numbers and you will be in good shape.

Originally Posted by Dwainkitchens

I do not have a Travel Trailer yet, and I am going to be purchasing a new vehicle in the next few months. I was hoping to purchase a Crossover SUV, didn't really want to pay for larger SUV, but it appears the highest tow capacity on most SUV crossovers is around 3500 lbs. But even the smaller Escape's Travel Trailer's GVW is 4,000 lbs. Dry weight (Depending Plan A or is either 1720lbs or 2150lbs. I was thinking if I didn't fill it up with water, I could tow with a vehicle that had a tow capacity of 3500lbs. BUT, I guess when you add luggage etc, I would not be able to do this. I don't know how much luggage we would take, but this is disappointing because I don't really want to pay for a larger vehicle, but I want fiberglass and not sticky TT. Plus, I really wanted a FB TT that was 19-21 feet.

So, am I correct I can't pull with a 3500lbs tow capacity and will have to purchase larger SUV?

Thanks!
Dwain

[Neto]

I do not understand the negativity towards Consumer Reports. I also get the magazine and just recently received the 2018 Buying Guide. They compile their data from surveys of people that own the vehicles and other repair data that is available and in the issue above they post the Best and Worst Vehicles based on that data. They cover all areas of the vehicle and give a raiting for each.

To blindly dismiss this source of information as being biased just does not make sense to me. I would Never Purchase a vehicle, new or used, that is on their vehicles to avoid list.

[Mike in WIS]

Originally Posted by Neto

I do not understand the negativity towards Consumer Reports. I also get the magazine and just recently received the 2018 Buying Guide. They compile their data from surveys of people that own the vehicles and other repair data that is available and in the issue above they post the Best and Worst Vehicles based on that data. They cover all areas of the vehicle and give a raiting for each.

To blindly dismiss this source of information as being biased just does not make sense to me. I would Never Purchase a vehicle, new or used, that is on their vehicles to avoid list.

I have subscribed to CR for years and have found it to be helpful, a number of times.
Nothing in life is guaranteed, but I always check out CR when considering a vehicle purchase.

[Raspy]

Originally Posted by Neto

I would Never Purchase a vehicle, new or used, that is on their vehicles to avoid list.

You can let them decide for you, if you wish, but doing your own research and looking for their biases, and deciding if those apply to your needs, is best.

For instance, they used to recommend against the Jeep Wrangler because it handled differently than cars. No regard for it having a different function and no regard for it having nothing else in it's class. Nobody goes four wheeling in an Accord or expects a Jeep to be a luxury road burner. Nobody would buy one thinking it was the same as the other, so why should one receive low ratings just because it is unlike the other?

They have also railed against other models based on pre-conceived results, rather than actual fair tests. They have actually been sued for this.

So, gather data and use it in your calculations, but don't buy because they say you should. Do your own research and make your own decisions, based on your own needs and wants. They are simply one more source of information, and if that conflicts with other results, look at why.

They may be very good for reliability statistics, if they offer that.

[floyd]

Originally Posted by Neto

I do not understand the negativity towards Consumer Reports. I also get the magazine and just recently received the 2018 Buying Guide. They compile their data from surveys of people that own the vehicles and other repair data that is available and in the issue above they post the Best and Worst Vehicles based on that data. They cover all areas of the vehicle and give a raiting for each.

To blindly dismiss this source of information as being biased just does not make sense to me. I would Never Purchase a vehicle, new or used, that is on their vehicles to avoid list.

To blindly accept CR just does not make sense to me.
I read CR for some years and found them to be not only wrong but biased and contradictory on virtually every product for which I had knowledge.
I do not believe that their intent is accuracy.
This does not mean that they are wrong in every case, but then neither would random selection be wrong in every case.

I have seen the the exact same product with two different brand names have extremely disparate CR ratings.
This sort of disparity and bias has been a hallmark of CR for decades.

If you don't read CR you may be uninformed, if you do read it you may well be misinformed.
Some still find it helpful and informative.

Now you have heard one rationale for a negative opinion of CR.
Whether that aids in your understanding or not, I can't say
Of course YMMV and there are equally viable alternatives...

[floyd]

Originally Posted by Mike in WIS

My point was that an unbalanced load, heavy at the back end, could easily create an unstable driving condition, which is not necessarily the same thing as being overloaded. Sorry for any confusion.

I understand your point, but then the load should not be placed in such a way as you suggest and the tongue weight is part of the load on the TV.
A WDH does effectively spread the load as you suggest, but it can be risky to use it to spread the overload, especially on small fiberglass RVs.
I guess it is a matter of degree and good judgement and I am sure you consider the former and exercise the latter.

[Raspy]

Originally Posted by Mike in WIS

Seems to be some resistance to the concept of WDH’s and sway reduction. Why is that?
With all due respect, I never said or implied it was to “compensate for an overloaded tow vehicle”.
From etrailer.com:

“A weight distribution system helps to ensure a smooth, level ride and allows you to tow to the maximum capacity allowed by your hitch. It also helps to correct tow vehicle sag, improve steering and stopping, and - when used with sway control - correct trailer sway.”

The WDH also adds weight to the trailer axle that it removes from the hitch. Best to make sure the trailer axle has the capacity to handle the extra load. A lot of the older torsion style axles are getting "tired" or are of low capacity because the trailers are light. Some earlier frames seem to be weak. The trailer might already be loaded near capacity.

The system needs to be considered as a whole and not just to always need a WDH to level out the TV. Weight added to the TV, like a load of firewood way to the rear, should not be distributed to the trailer just to level the load.

[Jon in AZ]

WDH and sway control are two separate issues.

Any trailer can benefit from a sway control device. No trailer should need it in normal driving conditions- including side winds and passing semis and busses (the worst!). A well-designed and properly hitched and loaded travel trailer with 10-15% tongue weight should not experience sway under a wide range of "normal" conditions. The sway bar is a back-up safety device for the unusual situation- dodging a boulder while descending a curved mountain grade, for example. A sway bar cannot correct all sway conditions, so it is not a substitute for conservative, defensive driving and trailer brakes. But it is inexpensive, lightweight, and easy to use, so little reason not to use one.

WDH provides a benefit in both normal and emergency situations, but not every rig needs or can accept one. The equipment adds a fair amount of weight, and only provides benefit as you approach the tongue weight or rear axle weight ratings. The hitch, hitch attachment points, vehicle and trailer frames all have to be designed for the high forces applied. Many small and midsize tow-rated vehicles "do not recommend" WDH use. When I was rear-ended and saw how the integrated factory receiver was attached to the unibody frame of my Honda Pilot, i can understand the recommendation. The trailer frame also has to be fairly stout. Scamp's lightweight frame does not even have a continuous frame rail from the hitch to the axle on the curb side.

Returning to the OP's question... pulling the smallest 17' Escape with a 3500# rated vehicle is possible- a couple of forum members have done it. It will be close enough to the tongue weight rating to warrant WDH, but I'm not convinced that class of vehicle is really well-suited to WDH. That's why I would recommend going a size up to a 5000# rated crossover. If you end up with the largest 21' Escape, even that might not be enough.

[k0wtz]

I once had a 32f 5th wheel pulled it using a 318 Dodge p/u 3/4 ton while on our way to Florida at a reststop I saw an old couple pulling a 28 or 30f 5th wheel with a 1/2 ton Dodge truck with a 6cy in it.

I asked them how it towed and they said just fine? I have never used any of the add on stuff to my vehicles but I don't drive fast. When I weigh my 13f Scamper the tongue weight is 400lb the average. Since the trailer weighs 1k I don't know how to get the tongue weight to 100lb.

Would I attempt to tow a 25f trailer with my Ford Edge? NO but I have seen large trailers pulled by sedans not too long ago. I think common sense needs to prevail in all towing scenerios and excess speed will get us every time!

Not too long ago I saw a truck pulling a trailer with a large roll of carpet on it. Going down a hill he was rolling pretty good and all of a sudden that trailer starting going out of control. I thought they were going to wreck and all of a sudden beer cans started flying out of the truck. Finally he got it straightened out but I think he was driving too fast for the load he had he almost learned a huge lesson!

bob

[steve dunham]

Originally Posted by floyd

To blindly accept CR just does not make sense to me.
I read CR for some years and found them to be not only wrong but biased and contradictory on virtually every product for which I had knowledge.
I do not believe that their intent is accuracy.
This does not mean that they are wrong in every case, but then neither would random selection be wrong in every case.

I have seen the the exact same product with two different brand names have extremely disparate CR ratings.
This sort of disparity and bias has been a hallmark of CR for decades.

If you don't read CR you may be uninformed, if you do read it you may well be misinformed.
Some still find it helpful and informative.

Now you have heard one rationale for a negative opinion of CR.
Whether that aids in your understanding or not, I can't say
Of course YMMV and there are equally viable alternatives...

I worked for a major retailer. That retailer owned a large paint factory that made paint for itself and several other large retailers.
We often got cases of paint that had multiple store labels in the same case . ( Factory Error) The paints were identical except for the labels on the cans yet CR rated one as excellent and a best buy and the same paint under another label as poor.
I saw the same results with appliances , vehicles and televisions .
CR's methods and reports seem to have a distinct bias and they often use meaningless criteria to evaluate products.
I bought a wash machine from the retailer I worked for that CR rated poorly , 26 years later that washer still works perfectly.
Considering that there were 7 people in our household I figure we made a good buy despite CR's poor rating.
I think Floyd hit the nail on the head with his post !!

[Cliff Hotchkiss]

Originally Posted by steve dunham

I worked for a major retailer. That retailer owned a large paint factory that made paint for itself and several other large retailers.
We often got cases of paint that had multiple store labels in the same case . ( Factory Error) The paints were identical except for the labels in the can yet CR rated one as excellent and a best buy and the same paint under another label as poor.
I saw the same results with appliances , vehicles and televisions .
CR's methods and reports seem to have a distinct bias and they often use meaningless criteria to evaluate products.
I bought a wash machine from the retailer I worked for that CR rated poorly , 26 years later that washer still works perfectly.
Considering that there were 7 people in our household I figure we made a good buy despite CR's poor rating.
I think Floyd hit the nail on the head with his post !!

Hope you didn't pay for an extended warranty on that washer