Towing Capacity

[Paul O.]

This exchange reminded me of the ABC "unintended acceleration" hoax they perpetrated. How much damage did they cause?

[steve dunham]

Originally Posted by Paul O.

This exchange reminded me of the ABC "unintended acceleration" hoax they perpetrated. How much damage did they cause?

Are you referring to the unintended acceleration hoax with Toyota's
An acquaintance of our family did a couple years in prison on a involuntary manslaughter conviction due to that hoax on Toyota's part. Toyota ruined the lives of 2 families , one lost a family member and one lost a major portion of his life in prison.

"If you don't like the message then kill the messenger in this case ABC "

[Raspy]

Steve,

Yikes!

[steve dunham]

He was retried in a St Paul Mn court and then he was released from prison and Toyota was ordered to pay him and the other victim compensation.
Toyota's story was that they couldn't find the problem and they couldn't fix the problem thusly there was no problem .
At least when CR screws up no one loses their life.

[Paul O.]

My intent was not to somehow make light of what was a problem that had such serious and tragic consequences. What I remember is that no detailed explanation was ever presented by either Toyota, or ABC, regarding their test procedures and re-enactment details, respectively. They probably kept quiet after receiving legal advice.
It is a sorry state of affairs when the messengers (in this case CR and ABC) cannot be trusted to be nothing more than messengers.

[ZachO]

I've heard a lot on the "stuck accelerator" issue.

Could never be reproduced (though that doesn't prove anything). What people figure is that probably the floor mat got stuck.

Actual tests showed that even at full throttle, the brakes will stop a vehicle in only slightly more space than without full throttle. In a battle of gas against brakes, brakes win. The likely conclusion? It sucks, and it's not a matter of blame, but most likely: the people involved in those accidents never hit the brakes.

The accelerator got stuck because of a floor mat, and they panicked, and just never slammed the brakes. That may or may not still make it Toyotas fault, I don't know. Also I don't remember if it was because of aftermarket floor mats or OEM floor mats. Of course it doesn't take much time to get in an accident if the car suddenly accelerates. But in the one 911 caught on tape, which is just horrible to listen to, they're going down the road for a long time before the crash. They never hit the brakes.

A side note to this side note: I replaced a starter because of aftermarket floor mats. I was starting to have an issue where I turned the key and nothing happened. The problem was intermittent. The starter had been replaced 10 years ago with a cheap aftermarket, so I figured I'd just replace it.

Two days later...no start again. I had a bright idea, and started making sure the floor mat was pulled back as far as possible, out from under the clutch pedal, before trying to start the truck. Never had the problem again...Luckily starters are cheap and easy to replace...

The aftermarket mats are bulky and don't fit quite right. When they slide up under the pedals, they make it so you can't depress the pedal all the way. But the gas pedal is usually attached at the bottom, also, so the mat can't slide under it. It can, however, slide against it and push on it.

[Glenn Baglo]

Originally Posted by ZachO

But in the one 911 caught on tape, which is just horrible to listen to, they're going down the road for a long time before the crash. They never hit the brakes.

And, that driver was a police officer. He spent a lot of time talking to 911, describing the situation.
Never understood why he couldn't hit the brakes or shut off the engine.

[Steve Carlson]

The old Audi 5000 unintended acceleration cases were almost certainly pedal mis-application.

With the Prius, I'm not so sure. Older vehicles have no connection between braking and acceleration systems, but when you have regenerative braking controlled by the same computer system that is controlling the drive-by-wire throttle, who can say for sure there isn't something going on between them?

[Raspy]

It's still hard to understand why someone would not turn off the engine, put the transmission in neutral or hit the brakes hard enough to stop the car.

If they really did have some time and did none of those things, are we to think maybe this most basic response should be taught as an emergency response?

Of course, if it's a sudden thing in a parking lot, just a surge, that's different, but on the road for a long stretch?

As I recall, in one Prius incident, there was no record in the computer of the brakes being applied. Seems phony. How could someone ride along, at full throttle, and make a call to 911, explain the situation, and never think of shutting off the engine? Or scooting the carpet back with their feet, etc. Or 911 not tell them to put the car in neutral, if the brakes failed too?

Brakes should always be able to stop the car, but not if you just apply them lightly and burn them up while running at full throttle. It would take a serious emergency type stop to get stopped before they burned up. But then what? Put the car in park? Or just turn it off. I wonder if you can turn it off in all cars without engaging the steering lock? Mine you can, but I'm not familiar with the Prius setup. Neutral is the best answer.

[Jon in AZ]

Originally Posted by Steve Carlson

The old Audi 5000 unintended acceleration cases were almost certainly pedal mis-application.

With the Prius, I'm not so sure. Older vehicles have no connection between braking and acceleration systems, but when you have regenerative braking controlled by the same computer system that is controlling the drive-by-wire throttle, who can say for sure there isn't something going on between them?

The Prius has both regenerative braking AND friction brakes. Applying the pedal should activate the friction brakes, regardless of what the hybrid powertrain is doing, but whether faulty software could have overridden that input is uncertain. Toyota says no, drivers say yes. Bad deal for sure!

The software can definitely override the shift lever input, since there is no mechanical connection.

[ZachO]

With stressful emergency situations, you never know what you'll do until you're tested. If an emergency is happening, are you the person who takes charge and does what can be done in that situation? Or are you the person who freezes, unable to react? Or the one who becomes unhinged and unreasonable, freaking out?

You may have some idea, if you know yourself pretty well, but you never really know until you're tested.

Sitting calmly in a safe environment in front of our computers, it's pretty hard to second guess/analyze someone's actions in a life or death situation.

And yeah, I absolutely think that in driver training (which should be required later in life, not just when you're young and don't care), different scenarios should be offered up, with possible correct and incorrect actions.

Once there's an emergency, it's too late for critical thinking.

[floyd]

Originally Posted by ZachO

With stressful emergency situations, you never know what you'll do until you're tested. If an emergency is happening, are you the person who takes charge and does what can be done in that situation? Or are you the person who freezes, unable to react? Or the one who becomes unhinged and unreasonable, freaking out?

You may have some idea, if you know yourself pretty well, but you never really know until you're tested.

Sitting calmly in a safe environment in front of our computers, it's pretty hard to second guess/analyze someone's actions in a life or death situation.

And yeah, I absolutely think that in driver training (which should be required later in life, not just when you're young and don't care), different scenarios should be offered up, with possible correct and incorrect actions.

Once there's an emergency, it's too late for critical thinking.

Excellent Post!
Unfortunately, if you've got thirty years of driving experience without learning anything, real improvement is going to be a challenge, so at least pay attention when driving and never panic while the car is in motion.

If you would like "later in life" training, join SCCA and take a driving course. Five weeks of one night a week in classroom, then a couple of days in your car with the instructor. Then you can be on your way to Carnegie Hall!( if you know how to get there)

[Alf S.]

Hi: floyd... The road to "Car Nagy" hall is paved with good intentions!!!
Alf S. North shore of Lake Erie

[ZachO]

Yes some people will never be good drivers...

I took a motorcycle class, partly because some friends who had grown up dirt biking said they took it as adults, to get their endorsement. All of them said they learned a TON and were really glad they took it. You can just take a road and written test and not take the class.

I think 5 or so years of driving, then more education would be great...with mandatory re-training every so many years. People would hate it, but...

Anyway...towing

[floyd]

Originally Posted by ZachO

Yes some people will never be good drivers...

I took a motorcycle class, partly because some friends who had grown up dirt biking said they took it as adults, to get their endorsement. All of them said they learned a TON and were really glad they took it. You can just take a road and written test and not take the class.

I think 5 or so years of driving, then more education would be great...with mandatory re-training every so many years. People would hate it, but...

Anyway...towing

Yes, people would hate it and it wouldn't make any difference. Remember safety inspections on cars? They too did statistically absolutely nothing.
The ability to pass a questionnaire and a road test won't help if you are too busy texting or playing with your thousand app radio to pay attention.
LOL! #stupidisasstupiddoes!

We have done all that is necessary and probably all that can reasonably be done to make our roads safe, now it is up to the driver to take his responsibility seriously.

We now have a law which requires Insurance... no change in covered drivers .

We now have a law which requires lights on in the rain... about 70% compliance... About equal to voluntary.

We now have a law against texting but we put multi paragraph moving lighted signs over our interstates giving us all sorts of reading material like " don't read this and drive!" or "watch the road!"

How about talking dashcams with alarm phrases like "Danger Danger Will Robinson" or just the sound of a blood curdling scream!
You could even give it little gesticulating flailing arms to help draw attention. The driver would still have to look up when the alarm went off!

[David B.]

I won’t be to long before nobody will be able to drive a car, as self driving cars will be the law. We have them now driving all around the Phoenix area.
Dave & Paula

[ZachO]

Yeah, I'm probably young enough that I'll live to see the day where we're riding along on a road trip, reading and talking and taking naps, and say "wow, remember when we used to have to drive?"

[steve dunham]

Originally Posted by floyd

Yes, people would hate it and it wouldn't make any difference. Remember safety inspections on cars? They too did statistically absolutely nothing.
The ability to pass a questionnaire and a road test won't help if you are too busy texting or playing with your thousand app radio to pay attention.
LOL! #stupidisasstupiddoes!

We have done all that is necessary and probably all that can reasonably be done to make our roads safe, now it is up to the driver to take his responsibility seriously.

We now have a law which requires Insurance... no change in covered drivers .

Floyd , I have one of those 1000 app radios in my truck and it is not a distraction . I never use it because I don't know how , I don't care, and I don't really want to . To be honest I think I also have apps on my phone but have never used them . I really don't know what an app is . I may well be stupid just in the opposite direction.

Wisconsin just got mandatory insurance . It didn't do much !!.
Years ago the drunks just drove without insurance, now they still drive without insurance and brag about all the money they save by not buying DUI insurance. You have to have your priorities in order, do you pay your bar tab or for insurance ? . If you live in Wisconsin the answer is obvious .

[floyd]

Originally Posted by David B.

I won’t be to long before nobody will be able to drive a car, as self driving cars will be the law. We have them now driving all around the Phoenix area.
Dave & Paula

There is a cure for that.....
The answer is at about the one minute mark!
Maybe the best answers on earth are from Mars!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eWgrvNHjKkY

[kb9uwu]

Originally Posted by the_fixer

Speaking of new hinges and door locks.

Attachment 114099Attachment 114100

Want to see mine? Cracks in the fiberglass shell around the new hinges 1 week after picking up my 2018 13' Scamp. I'll take some pictures.