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Old 11-17-2008, 08:25 PM   #21
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Mine doesn't.

One would have to check with the fifty or more insurance commissions to see how well the insurance lobby has done. Likely the policy holder is protected from inscos skating away at the least pretense.

However, each of us has a policy with monetary limits; when the policy limit is exceeded, I'm sure the remaining liability goes to the policy holder. So, it behooves the policy holder to operate within published manufacturer guidelines to keep the blame, and settlements, down.

I'm learning -- If I am ever involved with someone I suspect was towing over their limits, I would be discussing this with lawyer, both against the driver and against whomever sold him the trailer. If it was someone who was bragging about on the Internet, proving it would be easy!

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Old 11-17-2008, 08:29 PM   #22
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Many places ask you to sign a wavier against injury. I am always willing to sign them because I know they don't mean a thing legally.

If you are injured due to neligence on their part, they are still liable.
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Old 11-18-2008, 06:30 AM   #23
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Not pointing fingers here, but would someone show me in their insurance policy where it says "stupidity by insured is not covered." The answer is simple, thye cant exclude being human.
This is strictly an issue of protecting dividends to stockholders, or if a mutual company, protecting lower rates for the insured members. If you check your exclusions, you'll generally find that intentional acts and acts that rise to the level of gross negligence are excluded from coverage. Insurance policies generally only protect you against unforeseen risk. Stupidity is not covered, and insurance companies can and regularly do exclude the actions of human beings. Depending on the incident, they would (probably) pay the liability damages on property owned by others that you damage intentionally or negligently, but punitive damages and damage you cause to you and your property would (probably) be excluded under most policies.
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Old 11-18-2008, 06:48 AM   #24
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My analogy is along the lines of: I played Russian Roulette yesterday, I'm here today, so as far as I know Russian Roulette is a safe game. (At least for me.) In other words, the absence of an accident is not proof of safety.

The problem, for me, is that those with less than stellar experiences towing overloaded aren't here telling us about it.

Coming back to the liability angle on this topic:

The question I asked myself was, "Is towing over the placard limits illegal?" I'm not a lawyer, but I answered the question "Yes". Then, for me, the discussion just became one of how picky the legal and insurance system will be in the event of any given accident. The answer to that is "It depends." I'm just uncomfortable with an "it depends" answer.
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Old 11-18-2008, 06:54 AM   #25
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This is actually a case where someone was towing over their limits and won the lawsuit....

Nice find, Steve!
Careful, Pete. I read this award as a result of mediation (last line). I think it's an out of court settlement and that the retailer settled because he assumed he would lose a court case.
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Old 11-18-2008, 09:12 AM   #26
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I hope to avoid the fireman's problem by not having a Casita that weighs 4,900#, and rarely having to pass semi-trucks, as few of them go less than 60 MPH.
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Old 11-18-2008, 09:26 AM   #27
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You see all the time folks upgrading their tow vehicle components. Adding overload springs or WD Hitch or air bags/air shocks. Do I understand it right that none of these upgrades allow you to tow over your vehicles tow ratings? Speaking in terms of legal liability and insurance liability... not owner perception. Can anyone think an example of a vehicle owner manual stating that if you use some component you are allowed to tow over the rating? The only example I can think of is a post that a person said their owner’s manual stated a WD Hitch allowed the vehicle to tow more pounds. I forget what vehicle that was. In any event it’s rare right? I have not owned a lot of cars so I don’t have much knowledge. Thanks in advance for all your help.
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Old 11-18-2008, 10:00 AM   #28
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Ken, this is a very difficult area and there is nothing but shades of gray. Most folks can easily spot an unsafe tow combination. Marginal ones are a whole different ballgame. The physics are that you can move a train with a sewing machine motor with the right gearing. That has nothing to do with stopping the train or controlling the train after it's moving. Upgrading components may assist you to tow your rated capacity more adroitly, but they will not increase the rated tow capacity of the vehicle.

Liability, once again, is separated into criminal liability and civil liability. Criminal liability is defined by a state's penal code, and the corpus of each violation is usually pretty well defined with a set penalty or range of penalties. Civil liability, OTOH, is determined by a jury and is assessed in percentages.

So, to answer your question (and remember I'm not an attorney, nor am I dispensing legal advice... this is merely my opinion that I'm sharing) I'd think that upgrading your springs and hitch could be a mitigating factor in a civil suit. The question is: what would you have to do to in court prove that what you did actually improved or increased the manufacturer's tow rating and subsequently your ability to safely tow loads over the manufacturer's rating to the extent that you are no longer grossly negligent? Once again, even if you won the suit, you'd be out BIG bucks defending yourself. Perhaps hundreds of thousands of dollars if the case had a determined lawyer on the other side and some deep pockets component. And recognize that the criminal and civil ends are absolutely independent. You can be acquitted of criminal liability, but found liable for civil damages. And you can be liable for both as well.

After serving 34 years in government, all of that involved in one fashion or another with the legal system, I can tell you that reasonableness and logic don't play much of a role in a civil case. And I'll add that there's little "Justice" in the system.

Your best defense is to spend the few extra dollars up front to buy a vehicle that is deemed competent to tow the load you plan to tow. That single expenditure alone will protect you from being sued for negligence; a much better use of available dollars IMHO. You get largely worry-free towing for your investment.

I recently followed my own advice. I had an '02 Tundra 6cyl with a 4800 lb tow capacity. My Bigfoot weighs 5300 lbs dry. The 8 cyl Tundras have a 6500 lb tow capacity with the same frame and axle as the V6, so I knew that the frame and axle were up to the task; I surmised that the main reason for the drop in capacity was the V6 engine and transmission. I was never comfortable towing with that combination though. So, I sold the Tundra and now have an '07 Nissan Titan with a 9500 lb tow rating. Now, that is a ridiculously high tow rating for a half-ton truck with a small block V8, but it's one the manufacturer has to defend, not me. And frankly, I doubt that my nominal 6,000 lb trailer will ever stress this truck at all. And I no longer have to worry about being negligent in regard to the rated capacity of my truck should I ever have the misfortune to be in an incident where that's questioned.

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Old 11-18-2008, 12:01 PM   #29
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Careful, Pete. I read this award as a result of mediation (last line). I think it's an out of court settlement and that the retailer settled because he assumed he would lose a court case.
Of course it was negotiation as a result of extended mediation, not a court or jury settlement. However, they brought suit and walked away with a lot of money, so in my book they won....

Ken, if you look in the fine print of the Air Bag advertisements, you will find that they specifically say that they won't change the Gross ratings of a vehicle.

Some vehicle manufacturers do list necessary equipment required to achieve the stated rating, like Tow Package, WDH, trailer brakes, etc., but none to my knowledge state that ratings can be exceeded by adding equipment.

Ford, a company that pays a lot of attention to towing, says "The vehicle's brakes are designed to stop the GVWR, not the GCWR". Ford also says "Reduce tow capacity by 2% for every 1,000 ft of altitude".d

As Roger H said, putting on the extra equipment might be a mitigating factor, however, if I were opposing attorney, I would offer the same thing as proof that the operator KNEW he was exceeding limits...

I HAVE towed overweight. when I knew a lot less than I do now, and I'll never do it again -- It is just too risky! It is incredible how quickly a seemingly safe tow can turn into a beast!! And all the Can Do Attitude in the world won't trump the physics...
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Old 11-18-2008, 12:09 PM   #30
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I've given this some additional thought... and just to illustrate how murky an area this is, I presume that we know all what is normally required to tow safely. So, picture yourself on a jury for a moment... hearing a civil case on gross negligence. Remember that the bar is "what a reasonable and prudent person would do" in similar circumstances.

A trailer and tow vehicle came uncoupled and there was damage done to a third party.

The coupler spoon on the trailer was defective and the owner knew it. So he...

1) did nothing and towed it anyway.

2) tied the coupler to the hitch with one wrap of sewing thread to keep it on the hitch ball.

3) wrapped a half-inch of coban sticky tape around the coupler and hitch to keep it on the hitch ball.

4) tied it down with some stout rope to keep the coupler on the hitch ball.

5) used a length of chain wrapped around the coupler and hitch to keep the coupler on the hitch ball

6) replaced the spoon and mechanism, but the nut worked itself off, and the assembly came apart

7) replaced the entire coupler with a new one welded on, but the welds failed.

Seven scenarios all leading to the same ending. If you were on a jury, which scenarios would you hold the owner/driver responsible for civil damages on? Some of them? All of them? None of them?

Therein lies the problem with the murkiness of civil liability cases. It boils down to who knew how much and for how long about the problem, and what precautions were undertaken and when they were undertaken to mitigate the problem before someone was damaged. It's all gray.

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Old 11-18-2008, 01:18 PM   #31
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Logically, different trailer allowances doesn't equal equal performance. Just different "idiot proofing" tolerances.
At the risk of seeming rude, I think this is the main reason for the difference between US and Euro tow ratings. Europeans expect to tow with about half the hitch weight considered safe in the US, to drive below the speed of other vehicles and to drive with a great deal of care (including passing a supplementary towing test for some drivers).

Incidentally, the lower hitch weight percentages and the higher trailer weight ratings in Europe just about cancel each other out - the maximum hitch weight is about the same. Maybe it's hitch weight, not trailer weight, that sets the upper limit on tow ratings.

Two other factors that I think are significant are:
- 1,000 miles is a [b]very long journey in Europe, so wearing out vehicles by towing isn't such a big issue;
- in the US, each manufacturer has bigger and more profitable vehicles in its line-up, so why give a good tow rating to the smaller ones? For comparison, a CR-V is the largest Honda on sale in Europe!

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Old 11-18-2008, 03:19 PM   #32
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... - in the US, each manufacturer has bigger and more profitable vehicles in its line-up, so why give a good tow rating to the smaller ones?...
Andrew
Advertising. They will advertise the most they can tow with the smallest vehicle because it's a sales feature and it's bragging rights. That is, the most they can tow and not see the vehicle come back for warranty work.
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Old 11-18-2008, 07:53 PM   #33
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There's possibly another factor in Euro vs US/CA trailer recommendations -- If the tongue is longer on Euro, that would lead to lower tongue weights and they would be a lower percentage of the total weights. I haven't tried out any numbers so this is merely a theory to try and explain why those fundamental differences exist.

Another theory of mine is that the TW and percentage are much more important as the trailer size/weight goes up (can be 13,000 or so pounds!) and the US/CA rule of thumb is One-Size-Fitz-All -- In fact, it may be less important on smaller trailers. Also, the heavier Bulgemobile trailers tend to have less tongue length out in front of the trailer itself making the TW and percentage higher.

I don't know why the towing limits differ on what appears to be the same vehicles -- I once did a comparsion of one of the popular models between US and AU models and found a lot of little differences that indicated (not proved!) that there were some questions about the same equipment.

Without a statement from the manufacturer, we won't really know, and it's unlikely we'll get a statement because it might undermine the ratings... Anything else is a guess on our part -- I personally don't want to defend myself by saying "This is how they do it Somewhere Else" -- That line very often doesn't even work from state to state very often, much less Overseas.

I do know, from talking to a Truck Manager at my local Ford store, that several years back, Ford downrated the towing capacity of all its trucks with manual transmissions because of too many problems with customers over burnt clutches.
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Old 11-20-2008, 12:38 PM   #34
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I used to tow a 20' sailboat with a 1970 Toyota Crown SW using a self installed hitch from J C Whitney. The hitch said 1500#. It was not frame mounted, just bolted to a cross member of the car. The sailboat literature said it was 1700# and I figured the trailer for 300#. I added camping gear and family and had no problem towing. No trailer brakes.

However, coming down a hill into Sturgeon Bay, WI, an idiot jumped in front of me from a side street. I locked all four wheels and left a skid mark at least 50' long. I always drove under the speed limit, and I think that saved me then. (I didn't hit him) I still wonder what that guy was thinking. The Crown was red and the boat was blue and white.

Wisconsin didn't require licensing trailers and it wasn't until moving to Washington that I had to license the trailer and in the process have it weighed, empty. It was 800#! I don't know what the towing capacity was of the Crown, it had a 2.2 liter six.

I do think that auto mfgrs rate towing capacity so that the TV doesn't lose performance when towing. I know I have been going the speed limit and been passed by persons pulling all types of things, mainly boats.

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