Towing with a 2008 BMW X3

[perronp]

Originally Posted by Pappy

Hello All,
I have been monitoring this site for a few weeks along with other FGRV sites. Presently I own a 2008 BMW X3 and I'm seriously thinking about purchasing a used 16' or 17' trailer either a scamp or casita. I need to know if my vehicle would be up to the task. It has a 3500 lb towing capacity and a hitch weight of 350 lbs.
MY wife and I are retired and plan on hitting the road next spring to catch some Blues Festivals, that's one of our passions. Any comments would be appreciated.

I have a 2014 X3 and pull a 16' Trillium 4500 with no issue. Not sure how the weights compare but I hardly notice that I'm pulling the Trillium at all.

[floyd]

Originally Posted by Carol H

Funny enough at the big fiberglass rally in Oregon last summer there where way more Escapes than Scamps and they were a very close second in number to Casitas..... lots of former Scamp and Casita owners here who currently own Escapes. A number of folks here are actually on their second Escape or have the second one on order.

I think you will find that most of the owners of the Escapes will tell you the customer service is one of the big things they find great about Escapes. No matter where you haul the trailer they will make sure you are looked after.

We see very few Escapes in the Midwest, but of course the company isn't that old. Oregon is close to the Escape factory which might account for your observation.
Those who are buying their second Escape are most likely doing so to move up to larger models and not due to wear and tear.
Escape, like some others, has moved up in size with every change and has drawn those customers who want larger trailers along with each new model. This is all well and good, but the result has been to split the fiberglass genre down the middle.
Traditionally, the fiberglass genre has consisted of mostly small trailers built to be towed with normal sized family vehicles. These trailers are still the core of the business and a dividing line is starting to form separating large from small. The line is a bit amorphous right now but is rapidly becoming more clear.
Trailer size is the obvious difference but more subtle changes tend to track that difference such as travel and camping styles as well as length of trips and length of stays.
I have a Scamp13, which is the sole reason I have a travel trailer at all.
The size, towability, and versatility fit my travel style and habits in a way that nothing larger could provide.
The popularity of the larger trailers seems to be linked more to the buyer who has more traditional needs but wants the improved quality and resale of fiberglass construction.

[Glenn Baglo]

Not all trailers are on this map. Just those who chose to put themselves on the map.

[Carol H]

Originally Posted by floyd

Those who are buying their second Escape are most likely doing so to move up to larger models and not due to wear and tear.
Escape, like some others, has moved up in size with every change and has drawn those customers who want larger trailers along with each new model. This is all well and good, but the result has been to split the fiberglass genre down the middle.
Traditionally, the fiberglass genre has consisted of small trailers built to be towed with normal sized family vehicles. These trailers are still the core of the business and a dividing line is starting to form separating large from small. The line is a bit amorphous right now but is rapidly becoming more clear.
.

Yes most who are going for their 2nd Escape are indeed doing so for a new one - often larger. They do still offer the 17' and it remains a popular trailer.

As far as Fiberglass trailers traditionally being small goes I think you are forgetting about Bigfoot who built larger fiberglass trailers for years. Or the "Bigger" which was not light weight or small ;-) Only problem was due to the cost of a Bigfoot it was out of the reach of many who truly wanted to stay with a fiberglass trailer while moving up in size to fit their needs.

Escape did a good job of recognizing there was a market for fiberglass trailers a bit bigger than the 17' but smaller than the big 25' Bigfoot offered..... Some would say they have proven without a doubt that there was indeed a demand for them ;-)

Originally Posted by floyd View Post
Remember the OP has an X3. No Escape will tow like a Scamp or a smaller Casita with that TV.

I see no reason why the X3 would not do just as good a job of pulling a 17 Escape as it would a 16' Scamp or a Casita.

I know a number of people pulling 17'Escapes all over NA with smaller tow vehicles with no problems/complaints. They are pulling them with Toyota Venza V6, RAV4 and Ford Escapes for example.

[floyd]

Originally Posted by Carol H

I see no reason why the X3 would not do just as good a job of pulling a 17 Escape as it would a 16' Scamp or a Casita.

.

That's why I made the comment and not you!

[Glenn Baglo]

Floyd,

You are such a scamp.

[floyd]

Originally Posted by Carol H

Yes most who are going for their 2nd Escape are indeed doing so for a new one - often larger. They do still offer the 17' and it remains a popular trailer.

As far as Fiberglass trailers traditionally being small goes I think you are forgetting about Bigfoot who built larger fiberglass trailers for years. Or the "Biggar" which was not light weight or small ;-) Only problem was due to the cost of a Bigfoot it was out of the reach of many who truly wanted to stay with a fiberglass trailer while moving up in size to fit their needs.

I didn't forget the atypical examples you cited,and you come close to making a valid point, until you start to consider early production numbers. I suppose it may still be said that the exception proves the rule.

Upon review of our two whole comments (22&24) there is hardly any extant disparity.
However like the "Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy" which modified the entry on Earth by adding the word "mostly", I have done the same to comment #22 in order to bring us into a position of even greater agreement!

[Carol H]

Originally Posted by floyd

That's why I made the comment and not you!

Ok I will bite, whats is/was the bases of "your" comment?

[Cathi]

Originally Posted by floyd

We see very few Escapes in the Midwest, but of course the company isn't that old. Oregon is close to the Escape factory which might account for your observation.
Those who are buying their second Escape are most likely doing so to move up to larger models and not due to wear and tear.
Escape, like some others, has moved up in size with every change and has drawn those customers who want larger trailers along with each new model. This is all well and good, but the result has been to split the fiberglass genre down the middle.
Traditionally, the fiberglass genre has consisted of mostly small trailers built to be towed with normal sized family vehicles. These trailers are still the core of the business and a dividing line is starting to form separating large from small. The line is a bit amorphous right now but is rapidly becoming more clear.
Trailer size is the obvious difference but more subtle changes tend to track that difference such as travel and camping styles as well as length of trips and length of stays.
I have a Scamp13, which is the sole reason I have a travel trailer at all.
The size, towability, and versatility fit my travel style and habits in a way that nothing larger could provide.
The popularity of the larger trailers seems to be linked more to the buyer who has more traditional needs but wants the improved quality and resale of fiberglass construction.

Large and small are relative to what one is used to using or seeing. The biggest Escapes are still very small compared to what dominates the industry, and all Escapes can be pulled with a V6 (actually I am not that familiar with the 5.0s so maybe someone else can weigh in on that). I had someone in our 21' who I know thought it was just way too small --- because he has a big fifth wheel.

Your 13' is really not that much different in size from our 21' when compared to the usual trailers and MHs out there. You simply think of it as small compared to a 21.' With such a small space as a 13' though, if one thinks of doubling the space, that is indeed large by comparison to the 13', but still quite small in the RV world. Doubt you would be hampered with a 17' or 19' or even a 21'. They just aren't that big.

My guess is that Escape is trying to fill the niche left. After all, there are 13's and 16's and 17's being made so every time someone has been interested in an Escape that size (13', 15' or 17') he would have been looking at how much cheaper he can get another brand (without regard to quality). (That has evened up lately due to the dollar situation.) Not the same with the 19's or 21's or 5.0s that Escape is making now.

Escape is also trying to get downsizers from the bigger market who want something smaller that takes less gas and less trouble. Those who mostly have large fifth wheels or motorhomes would not even consider a fiberglass egg because they are just too small in comparison to what they have or have seen. But a 21' or the new 5.0 start to look interesting to them. Escape does not need the business until they can expand, but the 5.0 ad in Trailer Life generated such interest that TL insisted on doing more on it and put it on the cover.

There are 30 or so Escapes in the Midwest now, by the way, and 90% of Escape sales have always been to Americans due to the population difference.

[floyd]

Originally Posted by Cathi

Large and small are relative to what one is used to using or seeing. The biggest Escapes are still very small compared to what dominates the industry, and all Escapes can be pulled with a V6. I had someone in our 21' who I know thought it was just way too small --- because he has a big fifth wheel.

Your 13' is really not that much different in size from our 21' when compared to the usual trailers and MHs out there. You simply think of it as small compared to a 21.' With such a small space as a 13' though, if one thinks of doubling the space, that is indeed large by comparison to the 13', but still quite small in the RV world. Doubt you would be hampered with a 17' or 19' or even a 21'. They just aren't that big.

My guess is that Escape is trying to fill the niche left. After all, there are 13's and 16's and 17's being made so every time someone has been interested in an Escape that size (13', 15' or 17') he would have been looking at how much cheaper he can get another brand (without regard to quality). (That has evened up lately due to the dollar situation.) Not the same with the 19's or 21's or 5.0s that Escape is making now.

Escape is also trying to get downsizers from the bigger market who want something smaller that takes less gas and less trouble. Those who mostly have large fifth wheels or motorhomes would not even consider a fiberglass egg because they are just too small in comparison to what they have or have seen. But a 21' or the new 5.0 start to look interesting to them. Escape does not need the business until they can expand, but the 5.0 ad in Trailer Life generated such interest that TL insisted on doing more on it and put it on the cover.

There are 30 or so Escapes in the Midwest now, by the way, and 90% of Escape sales have always been to Americans due to the population difference.

I will take your comment one paragraph at a time...
1] I have owned and towed RV trailers of various sizes. (more than two dozen) I chose the 13 Scamp after most of them and have kept it for 11 years because it is the right size for us, not because we had to get used to it. I will concede that some folks may find the Escape small relative to what they are used to. I don't need a V6 to tow my 13.

2] If you think that my 13 is not that much different in size from your 21, then follow us sometime across the Green River ferry, through the drive-up at the bank or a fast food place, parallel park in town in two spots, turn around on a two lane road etc. I have been "hampered" by a 17 and I would quit RV travel if I had to return to one.

3] I think that you would find a Scamp13D to be "not that much cheaper".
An Escape 13&15 are no longer in general production and I understand that the 17s are being produced by special order in a smaller number than Casita13s. As you say, Escape is now making 19s,21s and dual axle 5.0s.
I happily compare the build quality of my Scamp13 to the Escape

4] Exactly the point I was making in the first place...Escape is forming a new genre. BTW resizing photos could make any trailer fit on the cover of a magazine.

5]I have seen several of those 30 or so Escapes now in the Midwest and have even made repairs.
There are thousands of Scamps and Casitas across the country and unless you are going to a rally you can travel for months and never even sight one.

I have said NOTHING derogatory about Escape trailers on this thread.
I reiterate I think it is a fine product. I simply would not trade my 11year old Scamp13D for any Escape ever made and certainly not for the larger ones being produced today.
They are simply made for an increasingly divergent market, perhaps for a larger audience as you say. A market which is increasingly less attractive to the core group audience to which I belong.
.................................................. ...........................................
Allow me a tangent for the purpose of illustration...
I have owned several Ford Rangers. Every single time I purchased one, I got the same condemnation from my peers.
"WHY would you buy a Ranger when you could get a full sized truck for just a little more money?"
Ranger owners know why! (Those asking never will.)
.................................................. .......................................
I buy a shoe for fit, purpose and comfort. I won't buy a size 15 simply because I can get it for the same price.

[Glenn Baglo]

You're such a scamp.

[honda03842]

The size issue is a funny one. A number of people went from the Escape 19 to the Escape 21. I would not be surprised to see them go to the the Escape 23, 25 or eventually the 27.

That's all fine for both Escape and the larger, and than larger again rig buyers. This week someone sold an Oliver 23 because it wasn't big enough for a husband and wife. I know a happy wife is a wife for life.

This morning two friends with a 23 foot trailer told me they needed a bigger trailer to travel. Fine if they do. I asked why and she went quiet.

As your size increases, you generally will travel less, there will be places that you just can not go, things you can't do. Your costs go up, your tow vehicle requirements increase, your mpgs go down, your maintenance increases.

Thanks to American entrepreneurs the price of fuel has dropped dramatically in short order. Is this going to be allowed to continue?

Find the rig you like and enjoy your travels. We've traveled equally in small and large rigs, I can't say bigger was better or smaller was better. Smaller was less expensive and allowed us to go to more places. In both sizes were wonderful, it was the travel and not the rig.

I remember driving up to a campground in the Chiricahua Mountains, Sunny Flats. There were 3 Scamp 13s at that marvelous campground. Nothing big. Little guys fit in lots of small, wonderful places.

[Glenn Baglo]

I'm not moving from a 17 Escape to a 19 or 21, because that would also require a new tow vehicle and the one I have is low miles and just fine.
I don't take my trailer through the drive-through at McDonald's, but if I had to eat at Mcdonald's, I guess I could.
Which is a dumb argument.

[Cathi]

Originally Posted by floyd

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I buy a shoe for fit, purpose and comfort. I won't buy a size 15 simply because I can get it for the same price.

As we all do.

You could add budget to that for most of us.

By the way, the 17' is still one of the main trailers that Escape sells and is popular. Not a special order any more than the others.

The group of egg trailers that you are talking about are often towed with the family car and that is very often a V6, even though you do not need one.

I would not ever be parallel parking a trailer but if you can parallel park your 13', you can parallel park our 21'. I am guessing from your comment that you fit into two parking spaces and think that we do not. We do. We fit with our 19' and looked to see that there was extra room so we knew we would fit with our 21'. We often park in two spaces (not parallel parking!)

I don't take the 21' into the situations that you do because I would not want to take a chance on hitting overheads or such and I want to have plenty of room. But you could take it just about anywhere you get your 13'. I would not turn it around on a two-lane road in the middle of anywhere but do sometimes if there is at least some room to pull slightly off of the road on one side and then the other. You do have the easier time with that, I'm sure. I hesitate to do such turnarounds because of possible oncoming traffic. The 21', however, could be taken to the bank and many such places as you do and as I see people with utility trailers do. I just do not care to do that any more than I would with a 13', other than parking in two spaces to go in.

I did not say that a 13' is not much different in size from a 21'. What I said is that neither is much different compared to the big fifth wheels and MHs, and you can do mostly the same with a 21' as a 13'. Both are small in comparison to the big guys, even if one is double the size of the other. That difference in size, however, makes a big difference to many egg buyers when considering them.

I am simply pointing out that the similarities of all fiberglass trailers including the Escape 5.0ta and the 21' are greater than the differences when compared to the main market. And pointing out why Escape is where it is in the market, which comes down to the fact that it is a business and that is apparently where they thought best to go with it.

As you know, it is exceedingly common to move to bigger trailers among egg owners and from egg to stick and that may be the rule, not the exception. While you like your 13' best, others have moved to bigger for a bathroom, permanent bed and/or bigger permanent dinette or whatever they perceive they need. And they give up very little for that. We are still all little eggs.

[floyd]

Just like the definition of PC, I can see that it is very easy to get into trouble by simply stating the obvious. Its as if I had responded to the question...
"Do I look fat in this trailer?"
A question which I was doomed to address.
It was only a simple observation of an obvious trend... Well I won't try to weasel out of it...I saw what I saw.

[Cathi]

Originally Posted by honda03842

The size issue is a funny one. A number of people went from the Escape 19 to the Escape 21. I would not be surprised to see them go to the the Escape 23, 25 or eventually the 27.

That's all fine for both Escape and the larger, and than larger again rig buyers. This week someone sold an Oliver 23 because it wasn't big enough for a husband and wife. I know a happy wife is a wife for life.

This morning two friends with a 23 foot trailer told me they needed a bigger trailer to travel. Fine if they do. I asked why and she went quiet.

As your size increases, you generally will travel less, there will be places that you just can not go, things you can't do. Your costs go up, your tow vehicle requirements increase, your mpgs go down, your maintenance increases.

Thanks to American entrepreneurs the price of fuel has dropped dramatically in short order. Is this going to be allowed to continue?

Find the rig you like and enjoy your travels. We've traveled equally in small and large rigs, I can't say bigger was better or smaller was better. Smaller was less expensive and allowed us to go to more places. In both sizes were wonderful, it was the travel and not the rig.

I remember driving up to a campground in the Chiricahua Mountains, Sunny Flats. There were 3 Scamp 13s at that marvelous campground. Nothing big. Little guys fit in lots of small, wonderful places.

The vast majority of full-timers have very large units and many cover a great deal of ground. They had the money to buy the large often expensive units and big tow vehicle and they likely have the money to pay whatever the gas amounts to. Gas prices and maintenance may or may not affect them.

The number of eggs is minuscule compared to the main market so by far most travel is done in large units.

We went from the 19' to the 21' as you know. I will only say that we bought our 19' used, travelled in it a good amount, and we ordered the 21' with what we wanted and needed (and the layout is completely different). In the same way that you made a big change in your tow vehicle, we made a big change with our trailer. It is big to us even though you may not know why, as I may not know about your TV, although I have seen some of your glowing comments on the improvement!

We looked at the Oliver and it was too big for us. That does not necessarily mean that it would be too big later or that we would not get an Escape 23' if there were one. People change their ideas of what they want and need and their budgets change, too. Someone at 30 with children is not necessarily going to get the same thing as they would at 60 retired. Of course, they don't "need" what they have in an RV any more than they need anything. People's choices are hopefully the best for them to get them out there. Someone at an older age gets the same benefits travelling the country as they did at an earlier age, maybe in something quite different.

You just happened to do the reverse of most by having the bigger units and then going to smaller. So you know what it is to have a bigger unit and you perceive smaller to be better. As you know, however, most would not spend that kind of time in that size trailer. It is commendable that you can do that and manage it all very exactly. Everyone does not have your attention to detail. It is interesting to follow your travels and see what the next Newfoundland adventure will be.

[Glenn Baglo]

Trying to convince somebody that needs and wants a 46" belt that they should buy a 32" belt is a difficult sell. Which is why this thread leads nowhere.

[Raz]

Originally Posted by Jon in AZ

They're pretty similar in seems of overall size, type and quality of construction, and price (similarly equipped), but many differences in execution.

• Scamp is lined with two layers of foil bubble wrap covered with marine headliner**. Casita is lined with foam-backed carpet.
• Scamp has an exposed, resin-coated OSB floor underneath. Casita has a full fiberglass skin covering the OSB floor on the bottom. It adds weight and could trap moisture, but looks cleaner. There's no functional advantage either way.
• Scamp comes with 13" wheels. Casita comes with 15" wheels.
• Scamp interior height is 6'2". Casita interior height is 5'10".
• Scamp has a sliding rear window. Casita has a fixed rear window.
• Scamp has shallower cabinets and a wider aisle. Casita has deeper cabinets and a narrower aisle.
• Scamp offers two different bath options: side or front. The side bath is smaller, but the trade-off is a larger galley and more storage. Casita only offers a front bath, which is similar in size to Scamp's front bath.
• Scamp is available with a fiberglass interior or a custom wood interior. The wood interior has a wider dinette bed (54"x76" vs 45"x76" on standard models). Casita only offers fiberglass and has a 45"x76" dinette bed, except...
• Casita offers a twin/king bed layout (Liberty model) for those who want a really big bed. Scamp does not offer anything like it.

**Scamp's claim of R-15 is probably bunkum, but I like their system nonetheless.

Watch out for a terminology difference as you're shopping. In Scamp-speak, "deluxe" means wood interior and "standard" means fiberglass interior. In Casita-speak, "deluxe" means bathroom, and "standard" means no bathroom (sofa/bunk instead).

Hope that is of some help.

Good comparison. I would add that Scamp offers crank out (jalousie) windows. They are not found on a Casita or an Escape.

If can live with just a port a potti, the Happier Camper is worth a look. As it's new, a used one would not be an option. Raz

http://happiercamper.com/

[Pappy]

Hi Raz,
Thanks for the comparison.

[Pappy]

Hello Norm,
You have experience with both, thanks for your comments. I was thinking of the Casita 16' Liberty dlx because of the larger bed or the Scamp 16' standard layout 4 with the side bathroom. I would have to see them to make a decision.
My wife and I are both under 6' so I thinking the interior height wouldn't be a problem for us.