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03-28-2013, 11:52 AM
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#61
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Senior Member
Trailer: No Trailer Yet
Posts: 5,112
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I'm not naming names, but some people get their kicks out of intimidating other people with hints of dire consequences for ignoring their sage wisdom.
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03-28-2013, 12:11 PM
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#62
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Senior Member
Name: Wayne
Trailer: Airstream Sold, Nest Fan
Ontario
Posts: 2,002
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Francesca Knowles
I have to admit that one of the things that keeps my 1965 Falcon wagon at home is the greatly increased safety of newer vehicles in the event of a crash. That chest-piercing steering column especially troubles me...
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A very good point Francesca and I agree. I would luv to have a classic for towing and had my eye on one, (a diesel) but the lack of safety features was a turn off. No air bags etc is a biggy.
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03-28-2013, 12:33 PM
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#63
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Senior Member
Name: Norm and Ginny
Trailer: Scamp 16
Florida
Posts: 7,517
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Bob,
To be more direct, we spend a lot of time telling people they need a substantial tow vehicle, often more than I believe is necessary. Almost, in a sense, saying if you get the right tow vehicle you'll be OK.
I've met two people, newly towing with the 'right' tow vehicle who have rolled their trailers, none of them small trailer 'towers'. To me it's clearly obvious that most accidents, car or trailer, are not the fault of the powered unit but rather the driver, conditions, driver knowledge......
We all know a lot of drivers who have crashed in a perfectly good car or truck, meeting all standards.
My point to be newbies is to spend a lot of time with experienced RVers, talking to them about the towing process no matter what their tow vehicle.
__________________
Norm and Ginny
2014 Honda Odyssey
1991 Scamp 16
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03-28-2013, 01:00 PM
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#64
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Senior Member
Trailer: Class A Motorhome
Posts: 7,912
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Thomas G.
I'm not naming names, but some people get their kicks out of intimidating other people with hints of dire consequences for ignoring their sage wisdom.
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-------------------------------------------------------
As for this writer, if I get but one person to do the right thing and it prevents that accident, I'm good.....
When a 17 year old girl dies in your arms because of an accident caused by her boy friend's father ignoring several warnings about safe vehicle operation (he ignored the infamous Firestone 500 tire recall notice because he knew that the tires were OK, and one came apart at 55 MPH) one gets much more critical about all aspects of vehicle and road safety.
Her last words to me were, "Mommy, it hurts"...
BTW: The courts found the Father liable for her death in the civil suit that followed.
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03-28-2013, 01:18 PM
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#65
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Senior Member
Trailer: No Trailer Yet
Posts: 5,112
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob Miller
.......
BTW: The courts found the Father liable for her death in the civil suit that followed.
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Gee Bob, I wasn't even thinking of you. I know that you would never put something dark out there to scare people.
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03-28-2013, 01:30 PM
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#66
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Senior Member
Trailer: 92 16 ft Scamp
Posts: 11,756
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Thomas G.
Going back to my original query (above), I would be interested to read about any case where someone was successfully sued.
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Have a hunch Tom if you sent any one of these lawyers an email they might provide you with a case or two. Just Google for a lawyer who claims to specialize in the RV accidents in your area
Peter Thompson & Associates - Portland
Davis Law Group - Seattle
Personally this is one situation where I really do wish that we in North America actually would follow the practises of Europe. It is my understanding that in Europe the police do use the vehicle manufactures towing specifications/capacity as stated in the cars manual to determine if the vehicle is overloaded or not. Would sure cut down on the number of times this same old argument comes up here.
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03-28-2013, 01:52 PM
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#67
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Senior Member
Trailer: 92 16 ft Scamp
Posts: 11,756
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Thomas G.
Quote:
Handling Requirements
Standard J2807 specifies that an understeering handling attitude must be maintained up to at least 0.4g cornering without a weight distributing hitch. With a weight distributing hitch (which transfers vertical load from the tow vehicle's rear wheels to its front wheels), an understeering attitude must be maintained up to only 0.3g cornering.
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Another equally important component of the J2807 Standards is:
"To assure that the tow vehicle's structure is capable of towing a particular trailer load, standard J2807 specifies that no more than 5 degrees of permanent angular deformation at hitch attachment points is acceptable. Also, the highest experienced trailer hitch attachment force must be withstood for five seconds without significant loss of load (no structural deflection)."
Read more: Tow Ratings Finally Pass the Sniff Test - The Society of Automotive Engineers (SAE) - Automobile Magazine
It is very possible that the above is one of the reasons behind the recent towing capacity down grading of a number of the small crossover type vehicles that were popular towing vechiles here but some folks here have also indicated that they have had sagging rear issues with in the past
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03-28-2013, 02:36 PM
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#68
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Senior Member
Name: Arlon
Trailer: 2002 Casita Bunk Delux
Texas
Posts: 149
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob Miller
----------------------------------
My original question to Allstate was concerning a Motorhome towing a trailer with a H/D Motorcycle thereupon. I don't think that they were concerned about my vehicle street racing.
I looked for a listing of Insurance companies that don't mind paying accident claims without investigation and I found these companies. "---"
While very few of these incidents may ever wind up in court, (As did the cited case involving a fatality) just the loss of insurance coverage is a significant deterrent to me anyway.
BTW: Most experienced lawyers call most criminal and civil cases in court a "Crapshoot" at best. As I have never heard of an expert wittness for "Common Sense", you would be on your own with that as a defense, either with your insurance company or the courts..
Stayin' Inside one box to keep out of that last box.....
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Do you go outside?
__________________
2002 Casita 17' Bunk Model Delux (replaced 28' 5th wheel)
2003 Dodge/Cummins quad cab (daily driver/tow vehicle of choice)
2005 AWD Astro Van/camper (my solo camper)
2006 Xterra MT (for sale)
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03-28-2013, 03:06 PM
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#69
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Senior Member
Name: george
Trailer: FunFinder
Missouri
Posts: 455
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I agree with much of what Norm speaks of when he talks about the general lack of training and therefore the questionable level of skill many drivers have. Add the fact that anybody with a driver license can hook up and tow down the public roads, then for sure, we are looking at a compromised situation. At the very least we should encourage people to think in terms of having good skill sets for driving and pulling a trailer. Unfortunately, that side of the discussion is largely subjective, and as Bob points out, the majority of people "think" they are good drivers.
So that leaves us in forums such as this to try to bring a semblance of safety to the discussion by pointing out weight limits, and accepted "hardware safety devices" ( brakes, correct hitching, proper tires and inflation, etc ).
If I were running the zoo, I would in fact require much stricter skill level testing for all drivers licenses, including requiring an endorsement for trailer towing.
As an example, when my daughter was 17 years old, I took her to Arizona for a multi-day teenage defensive driving course at the Bob Bondurant school of performance driving. Expensive, but well worth it, as she acquired skills in just a few days that might otherwise take years of practice to try to figure out on her own.
To get back on the topic of the thread, I feel it's wise for anyone who is looking tow their trailer to study and understand as much as they can about both the hardware and skills to drive/tow. If it makes sense to use a given piece of hardware, such as a WD hitch, or supplemental air suspension, for your combination of tow/trailer, then it sure makes sense to research the different options available to you, and come to the best understanding of the how and why they work, and their limitations.
Bottom line is this whole RV experience is supposed to be fun and enjoyable, so making it as stress free sure makes sense to me.
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03-28-2013, 03:38 PM
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#70
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Senior Member
Name: Carl
Trailer: 2013 Lil Snoozy #161 (SOLD)/2010 Tacoma
NE Oklahoma
Posts: 2,358
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This topic isn't isolated to only RV'ing. In the trucker industry it used to be if you drove a truck before it was fairly easy to get a job. Now they inquire if you have 4-season driving skills. Puzzled me until I realized some would drive during the summer, then work a non-driving job during bad weather. So one would say they have been driving for 20 years, but still not have the skills or experience of snow and ice driving.
There is a priority scale to contend with. I guess we would assume the "driver" is the first concern and then the equipment. As I said in another thread, I drove for a company that violated all the safety concerns, so I quit after three months. And I drove for another company that frauded the highway laws as in passing scale requirements, etc. Once I realized they expected me to break the laws, I quit. It's the drivers head (responsibility).
I have five years of four-season cross country driving but my first travel trailer trip will be an extra cautious one. Until I and the trailer get to know one another. And will have to give the tow time to get acquainted with the towee. After all they will be joined at the hip.
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03-28-2013, 05:48 PM
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#71
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Senior Member
Trailer: Class A Motorhome
Posts: 7,912
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"Joined at the Hip" ??? Hmmm. I thought that tandum towing was a lot easier than parallel towing.
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03-28-2013, 07:01 PM
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#72
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Senior Member
Name: Carl
Trailer: 2013 Lil Snoozy #161 (SOLD)/2010 Tacoma
NE Oklahoma
Posts: 2,358
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Yep........you got me.
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03-29-2013, 06:00 AM
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#73
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Senior Member
Name: Wayne
Trailer: Airstream Sold, Nest Fan
Ontario
Posts: 2,002
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FRED SMAILES
I bought a hitch at a garage sale and modified it to fit my car.
Fred
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Fred, Nice Fairlaine and receiver.
After having a U Haul "2" installed on our Nissan Van I was not impressed. The van came with 6 factory threaded inserts but the U-Haul receiver design only used 4 of them.
Within a few hours I fabricated some extra parts and welded them in place. The receiver now used all 6 threaded inserts plus a welded portion I put in place myself. So much stronger and flex free as I was using a WDH.
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03-29-2013, 06:40 AM
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#74
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Senior Member
Trailer: No Trailer Yet
Posts: 5,112
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MC1
.........
Within a few hours I fabricated some extra parts and welded them in place. The receiver now used all 6 threaded inserts plus a welded portion I put in place myself. So much stronger and flex free as I was using a WDH.
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I'm waiting for someone to say that since you modified a factory design that your insurance will be cancelled, you will be sued and that your hair will fall out.
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03-29-2013, 07:57 AM
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#75
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Senior Member
Name: Wayne
Trailer: Airstream Sold, Nest Fan
Ontario
Posts: 2,002
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The fault finders are out there in the shaldows Thomas, give them some time....
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03-29-2013, 08:08 AM
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#76
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Senior Member
Trailer: 13 ft Boler
Posts: 1,175
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MC1
Fred, Nice Fairlaine and receiver.
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COMET,,,,,1964 MERCURY COMET !!!
Not to worry, its been called worse.
Especially when I cut a knuckle!!
One guy asked me what year my Pontiac was!!!!
Fred
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03-29-2013, 08:13 AM
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#77
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Senior Member
Name: Wayne
Trailer: Airstream Sold, Nest Fan
Ontario
Posts: 2,002
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LOL, sorry Fred I should have known better.
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03-29-2013, 11:34 AM
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#78
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Senior Member
Name: Francesca Knowles
Trailer: '78 Trillium 4500
Jefferson County, Washington State, U.S.A.
Posts: 4,669
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MC1
Fred, Nice Fairlaine and receiver.
After having a U Haul "2" installed on our Nissan Van I was not impressed. The van came with 6 factory threaded inserts but the U-Haul receiver design only used 4 of them.
Within a few hours I fabricated some extra parts and welded them in place. The receiver now used all 6 threaded inserts plus a welded portion I put in place myself. So much stronger and flex free as I was using a WDH.
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Good for you for recognizing and addressing what I think to be a huge problem with aftermarket hitches: disregard of factory mounting points for hitches supposedly designed by the seller to "fit" the rig it goes on.
Differences can be much more radical than those on your van.
We discussed one such situation recently on a Subaru (I forget which model). In that case the factory designed hitch attached at sixteen points, and included some reinforcing bars to be inserted into the frame tubes. The (cheaper) aftermarket substitute "designed" for the same car attached at only four points, two of which were to the sheet metal underside of the vehicle. No frame tube interior reinforcement.
And yet:
The owner is confident that performance/towing capacity is the same for both setups, an assumption I think dangerous. It would be interesting to ask Subaru whether tow capacity should be derated for the four-point aftermarket arrangement.
In my opinion, these very radical differences should be pointed out at least by the hitchmaker if not warned about in vehicle owners' manuals. It's likely that tow capacities expressed by vehicle manufacturers presume the use of a properly designed and installed hitch system.
Francesca
__________________
............... ..................
Propane Facts vs. Fiction:. Click here
Tow Limit Calculator: Click here
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03-29-2013, 02:55 PM
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#79
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Senior Member
Trailer: Boler (B1700RGH) 1979
Posts: 5,002
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Thomas G.
I'm waiting for someone to say that since you modified a factory design that your insurance will be cancelled, you will be sued and that your hair will fall out.
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__________________
1979 Boler B1700RGH, pulled by 2004 Toyota Sienna LE 2WD
Information is good. Lack of information is not so good, but misinformation is much worse. Check facts, and apply common sense liberally.
STATUS: No longer active in forum.
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03-29-2013, 05:13 PM
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#80
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Senior Member
Name: Carl
Trailer: 2013 Lil Snoozy #161 (SOLD)/2010 Tacoma
NE Oklahoma
Posts: 2,358
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Thomas G.
I'm waiting for someone to say that since you modified a factory design that your insurance will be cancelled, you will be sued and that your hair will fall out.
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Since you modified a factory design your insurance will be cancelled, you will be sued and your hair will fall out................
Will that suffice?............LOL
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