Towing with FWD V6 vs a Jetta TDI - Page 6 - Fiberglass RV


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Old 07-12-2013, 09:15 AM   #71
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I will add one caveat to the 2.0T gas. We have had the timing chain tensioner fail and destroy a few engines recently. I believe it was just a bad batch from a supplier, but they are not bullet proof.

While they work on regular gas, long term use has shown up with some unhappy engines with persistent MIL. Also they like to clog intake ports in the head - you need to do fuel induction cleanings regularly (15k-25k) to keep the ports and valves clean. Otherwise we see them in about 55k miles with misfires and engine stumbles.

And the CR TDI timing belt is/was 120k miles. I have a PD TDI and it is leaps and bounds better than VE or CR TDIs. Once you get past the poor metallurgy problem with their cam shafts (I believe the replacements fixed that) the PD engines make more power, easier, and last just as long. They are also about as tolerant to poor quality diesel and misfiling as the VE. That is a big drawback of the CR is no Bio and no tolerance for gas or crap diesel. Also a lot more emissions crap (think late '70s and early '80s).

All cars will have their own unique issues. Just read up on them and stay ahead of them.

Jason
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Old 07-12-2013, 10:22 AM   #72
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On the topic of TDI vs SantaFe - I'm going to make a broad statement. Germans and Asians have different outlooks on design and engineering that leads us to the very different vehicles sold here.

Germans are guilty of over engineering a product then requiring very specific maintenance to keep the vehicle in top shape. The trade off is a vehicle that is very rewarding to drive every day. Even so much as looking for excuses to go for a drive.

Germans treat driving like a lot of Americans treat gun owner ship. It is fun, exciting, and the people protect their ability to enjoy it.

Asians (Japanese specifically) engineer a product to do a job, just like an appliance. They tend to do the job and last with minimal maintenance. But then they are not as engaging to drive. They tend to be boring and can be uncomfortable for longer trips.

Japan has inspections that basically require the engine be replaced to pass (as it was explained to me), about every 30k miles. So most people do the least they can to the engine since it will be replaced anyway.

Just my opinions on the differences of the cars involved. And a possible insight as to why some cars get the reputation that they have.

Jason
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Old 07-12-2013, 11:15 AM   #73
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On the topic of TDI vs SantaFe - I'm going to make a broad statement. Germans and Asians have different outlooks on design and engineering that leads us to the very different vehicles sold here.

Germans are guilty of over engineering a product then requiring very specific maintenance to keep the vehicle in top shape. The trade off is a vehicle that is very rewarding to drive every day. Even so much as looking for excuses to go for a drive.

Germans treat driving like a lot of Americans treat gun owner ship. It is fun, exciting, and the people protect their ability to enjoy it.

Asians (Japanese specifically) engineer a product to do a job, just like an appliance. They tend to do the job and last with minimal maintenance. But then they are not as engaging to drive. They tend to be boring and can be uncomfortable for longer trips.

Japan has inspections that basically require the engine be replaced to pass (as it was explained to me), about every 30k miles. So most people do the least they can to the engine since it will be replaced anyway.

Just my opinions on the differences of the cars involved. And a possible insight as to why some cars get the reputation that they have.

Jason
Yes, my thoughts to a T. I really luv the road feel of those German cars but the reliability of the Japan made autos keep me going back.
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Old 07-12-2013, 11:16 AM   #74
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However, lots of people will tell you that physics are different on the other side of the ocean. <cut> Others of us know the truth.
Yup some of us do know the TRUTH. Its called PHYSICS! One of the major components of physics is known as SPEED. There appear to be a number of people here who do not realize, that on the other side of the big pond they have set tow limits in most counties that apply across the whole country. Not just on certain roads. Doesn't matter if you are towing on a 5 lane freeway vs a 2 lane road - you cant go over x so many Km/h. Its as simple as that.

Due to physics, even on the Autobahm you can not go over 80 km/h (50 mph) when towing. (edit to add: See Andrews post 75 for regs on obtaining permit to do up to 62 mph) Try selling that concept to the boys in Montana or Texas


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Norm and Ginny are the experts at minimalism in towing and tow vehicles. Anything they recommend for you is a good idea.


Yup and if you were to read their travel logs and read what their towing practises actually are you will discover that they prefer to take it slow and dont go over 55 mph for most of the miles they have put on their set up. It would appear that they know as well as anyone that speed is a major component of physics and safe towing with their set up.


There are a few things one can bank on each and every time this topic comes up:

1) The same handful of folks are going to show up and recommend that one ignores the towing specifications set by the vehicle manufacturer in the country of purchase on the vehicle being discussed. The fact that many of the Go For It folks rarely contribute to any other topic is seen as internet Trolling by many.


2) At least one plug for Can-Am services will get tossed into the discussion.

3) Someone will claim they know the vehicle in question has the exactly the same components as the one built in another country.

4) The "Go For It" crowed with repeatable ignore the polite requests of others to not go down this road with the discussion as its become very clear over the years that the majority here dont feel its in the best interest of this list.

5) None of the "Go For It" or "It should be OK" folks will be opening up their wallets to help with the payment of legal fees or vehicle repairs should their recommendation be wrong.

I really wish that I could predict the stock market as well as I can predict how a thread such as this is going to go each and every time. If I could it would be my nice new shiny Escape I would be currently packing up for Bandon rather than my 22 year old Scamp.
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Old 07-12-2013, 11:35 AM   #75
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Due to physics, even on the Autobahm you can not go over 80 km/h (50 mph) when towing.
The Germans do love their unlimited speeds on certain autobahns, so you can imagine they don't like a 50mph (80km/hr) towing limit - and in fact they do have a 62mph (100 km/hr) limit available.

For those interested in the technicalities, this web page (in English!) from one of the German testing agencies is informative. Note that one requirement to get the higher speed limit (for any decent trailer weight) is to have hydraulic shock absorbers (dampers) on the trailer.

The "suitable coupling with stabilising device" is a Yurpeen-only anti-sway system where the coupler includes two friction pucks that clamp onto the tow ball - this works fine in Yurp where bolt-on towballs are not used, so it doesn't unscrew the towball nut!

100kmh approval - Checks and inspections | TÜV NORD
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Old 07-12-2013, 11:46 AM   #76
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Andrew correct me if I am wrong but isnt one of the requirements of obtaining the special permit to go over the 80 km is also that the trailer can not exceed the manufactures towing specifications as it appears in the vehicle's manual or stamped on the hitch? and that is what the police can/will be checked normally regardless of special permit or not?
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Old 07-12-2013, 11:52 AM   #77
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Absolutely - this is Germany where excommunication and/or burning at the stake is the minimum penalty for doing anything with a vehicle that the manufacturer has not specifically approved.

Towing within both the manufacturer's towing capacity and max hitch weight is definitely included. But of course that is the Yurpeen towing capacity which is so much higher than the North American one for most vehicles.
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Old 07-12-2013, 11:53 AM   #78
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Yup someone of us do know the TRUTH. Its called PHYSICS! One of the major components of physics is known as SPEED. There appear to be a number of people here who do not realize, that on the other side of the big pond they have set tow limits in most counties that apply across the whole country. Not just on certain roads. Doesn't matter if you are towing on a 5 lane freeway vs a 2 lane road - you cant go over x so many Km/h. Its as simple as that.
Right.. Which is why I mentioned that in my post.
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Old 07-12-2013, 12:20 PM   #79
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There are a few special considerations with the current TDIs. First, they require timing belt and water pump changes at 100k miles (a figure that I seem to hit with startling frequency). Expect to pay about $1200, more at a dealer.

Second, diesel fuel filters are more costly (on my older '20 TDI, that was about $80 every 25k miles).

Third, perhaps most worryingly, a significant number of owners have experienced sudden failure of the High Pressure Fuel Pump, with destructive metal shrapnel spread throughout the injection system. So far, dealers have replaced this at VW's expense, even beyond the warranty period, but there's concern this may not continue at higher mileage. Dealer's invoice for the job runs around $8,000, believe it or not.

The older ALH TDI engine (1998-2004) I owned in my two cars was considered most reliable, though dirtier. Each car lost their fuel pumps at 160,000 miles, but it was a simple replacement costing about $1600 each to fix. The "pump deuse" engines in Jettas and Beetles from 2004-2006 are reviled by my VW mechanic, and best avoided.

On the plus side, you'll never need a spark plug or a coilpack. The other thing to consider is resale value. VW TDIs sell new for about $3000 more than gassers, but they retain that premium value at high mileages. I just sold a 10-year-old Beetle TDI to a guy who flew from out of state, paying $4700. He wasn't worried about the 200,000 miles on the odometer. Why do diesel engines last longer? Maybe because we expect that, so we maintain them better..

You can find all knowledge about VW diesel engines at tdiclub.com. The two forums should share more info. They often have questions about towing.
These figures are for dealer pricing. They change water pumps while changing belts because these labor costs are so high. Not because a pump needs to be changed. If I did the job, I'd just change the belt or use an after market pump.

I do much of my work myself and use an independent mechanic otherwise who allows me to provide my non-oem parts. This drops cost low. Also many people do not follow recommended maintenance intervals and this caused problems.

However you make a great point that some years are to be avoided and other are far better. And a wise person would thoroughly research which years provide the easiest maintenance, best reliability and best fuel economy. Likewise some models are know for their reliability. My Silverado has needed very little maintenance. I make an effort to change the fluids. It is cheaper to flush transmission oil than to replace a transmission. For some things I use a dealer rather than a Jiffy Lube and service by a high school drop out.

Diesels generally last longer because they have larger bearing surfaces to handle the less than perfect detonation timing. Diesel run better when hotter because detonation occur at more regilar intervals.

More significantly, diesel fuel itself is a lubricant. I also now add an additive lubricant to my fuel which boost my fuel economy 10%. Opti-Lube XPD. My last four tanks have yielded a 10% improvement over my best without the additive and it generally runs more like 15% above my former average. I wish I had a TDI to try it in.
Not available for gas engines


On any event, I bet a TDI that ran Opti-Lube from day one would extend those failures out to double those mileage figures.

Diesels are a great choice for many people. However if you overall goal is cost, there may be better options--you do the math. Be sure to include resale value as that negates much if the purchase price.

One reason I like them because the fuel does not explode. I've seen people burn to death. I saw a car that caught fire in the engine bays roving on Rt 128. When they pulled over, the tank cooked off and blew into the interior engulfing them in flames. Another friend had to put his children in the water when his boat caught on fire.

I like diesel most for the high mpg and range also. While finding diesel can be a problem, I solve that with larger fuel tanks, or multiple fuel tanks. That is an added expense I gladly make because I hold onto cars for long time. I'll admit I'm at the extreme on this, but I have been stuck unable to find fuel and preventing that is worth any price. If we have another fuel crunch. I'll be the one motoring past you.
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Old 07-12-2013, 12:22 PM   #80
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Excellent link, Andrew

If someone wants to check the compliance for Tempo 100 of a typical 13' egg when towed by a Hyundai Santa Fe FWD and by a Jetta TDI, that would be informative. Otherwise, I'm unsure of the relevance of towing speeds in Europe to the topic.


As an irrelevant aside of my own, I am amused to note that since I added shocks to my Boler, the only thing that keeps my rig from being "Tempo 100" legal is the age of my tires. Good, since I routinely tow at 100 km/h.
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Old 07-12-2013, 12:34 PM   #81
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There has been many valuable and interesting contributions to this thread. Thanks to all. I found the European info most interesting and would like to know more about their chain less couplers.
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Old 07-12-2013, 01:07 PM   #82
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Absolutely - this is Germany where excommunication and/or burning at the stake is the minimum penalty for doing anything with a vehicle that the manufacturer has not specifically approved.
LOL sorry to hear that Germany has gone the way of being PC as well - rather liked the idea that they would be blindfolded and put in front of a line of fire power

I have also found the discussion regarding the various maintenance issues etc interesting as well, without the promoting of towing over manufacturers specs. My point was that it would be nice if we could keep it to that.
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Old 07-12-2013, 01:15 PM   #83
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Excellent link, Andrew

As an irrelevant aside of my own, I am amused to note that since I added shocks to my Boler, the only thing that keeps my rig from being "Tempo 100" legal is the age of my tires. Good, since I routinely tow at 100 km/h.
Where did you find in Canada/US the "Yurpeen-only anti-sway system where the coupler includes two friction pucks that clamp onto the tow ball" that Andrew mentioned?
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Old 07-12-2013, 01:20 PM   #84
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Here is the Al-Ko version of the friction anti-sway system



Features & Benefits » AL-KO

After the coupler has been locked onto the ball, pushing down the big red handle clamps the the friction pucks onto the ball. That black bit at bottom left is the tow hitch - Yurpeens don't use receivers so there is just one ball size and height.

And Germany has not just gone PC - they invented absolute compliance with the law. Even just thinking about towing above the manufacturer's rating is probably a crime there.
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