Towing with VW Golf GTI

[Joe Romas]

Originally Posted by librarianocnj

I Think you should go to TDIclub.com. There's guys have forgotten more about diesel than Diesel ever knew.

He's got a "GTI", not a TDI. Big difference besides the engine.

Joe

[redbarron55]

Other than the engine not that much difference.
You might look at the VW Great Britian site for towing ratings in kilograms.
Of course no one here would agree that these ratings apply in the US since .......
Since VW US dropped the ball why not pick it up from our British brothers?


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[Bob Miller]

Quote: "Since VW US dropped the ball why not pick it up from our British brothers?"

Yep, that sounds like the perfect defense to use in court, 'VW dropped the ball".
Sorta like suing Starbucks for refusing to take a five pound note for your morning coffee because your Bank card didn't work.

For starters, UK has a towing speed limit of 60 MPH, in some states the towing limit is as high as 80 mph etc.etc.....
UK Speed Limits


BTW: Didn't someone here spend a ton of $$$ adding European towing parts to their VW, must be a few more differences.

[Felix47]

I don't know about the legal liability. They can sue you for anything. I tow a 16 foot Casita with an Acura RSX which is the same as a Honda Civic but with 200HP full on. If it is windy, rainy or too late I don't drive. Never go over 50. Electric brakes. Only problem is the weight on the hitch so I take the propane tanks off and pulled the front A/C out which never worked well anyway. I keep it dry with no fluids and empty. I have no idea what the trailer weighs. I get 24 MPG highway.....towing..... Sounds like the VW would work too.

[Bob Miller]

Fortunately the O.P. has already ruled out second guessers.


BUT, admitting to not knowing ones own trailer and hitch weight hardly makes one an authority on how others should tow.


And, at about 2000 lbs empty, your 16' Casita is already 500 lbs over the towing capacity of an RSX.

[Carol H]

Originally Posted by Azmordean

I currently drive a 2011 Golf GTI. I suddenly find myself with a hankering for a small camper -- I'm leaning toward something like a Scamp 13.

Here's some info I've dug up so far:


My car has the exact same engine as the VW Tiguan, which is rated at 2200lb. The engine makes 200hp and about 210 torque. More than a lot of small SUVs. With some of the mods I'm planning that'll be closer to 250hp / 280 torque, so I'm doubting power's an issue. I'd include trailer brakes with any trailer, so I don't think braking would be an issue either. I have a hitch mount on my car already (Class 1, rated to 2000lb).

My inclination is a little Scamp weighing 1200-1500 shouldn't be an issue. It'd be nice if the manual had the actual tow ratings of course. I know these cars in Europe can tow. I'm not worried about my warranty (it's just about done anyway), I'm more interested if the towing is possible as a factual matter. I can't conceive a reason it wouldn't be based on the above, but would love some thoughts from folks towing small trailers with small cars.

First off lets look at some facts:

A 13' Scamp loaded for camping is going to weigh more than 1500lbs.
See the thread Trailer Weights in the Real World - 13' Scamps weighed in at between 1620lbs to 1950lbs. I know of another that weighed in at over 2000lbs loaded with no water in the tanks.

The Golf GTI is built in Mexico not Europe. There are differences between the European built Golf vs the one built for the NA market and the engine is not the only thing different. Suspension is also different amongst other things. North American's like a softer ride.

Your Golf may well have the same engine as the Tiguan but thats about it when it comes to similarities. Engine power is not the only factor that goes into determining a vehicles suitability for towing. The body design of the two vehicles is totally different. For example there are many differences between the Tiguan and the Golf specs: ground clearance, Curb weight, wheel base, length, payload, to name just a few - all of which can and will impact how well a vehicle tows are does not tow.

In Europe they have across the country towing speed limits. In a greater part of Europe towing speed is 80 kph (50 mph). Even the famous Autobahn which is well known for high speed driving is only 50mph when towing. Anyone who has towed a trailer for more than a week or two knows that speed impacts towing in a big way and not just gas milage. If towing at speeds at 50mph or less you could tow just about anything with LOTS of vehicles rated to tow nothing here in NA .... BUT when towing at highways speeds of 65 mph and some places greater that all changes fast and not in a good way.

In Europe they use a very different hitch system - both in design and how they attach them to the vehicle than we do in NA. You will not see anything in Europe that looks anything like the NA Class I hitch you have attached to your Golf.

Hitch attachment points on the car are often very different than those used in NA and each hitch installed in Europe has stamped right on it what its max tow rating is and that rating will match exactly what the auto manufacture has stated the car can tow - No more. You get caught with a hitch on a car in Europe that was not designed specifically for that car and stamped as such, you have yourself a REAL big problem. We have a member here who like the OP thought they would test the waters in regards to towing with another popular VW that is used for towing in Europe often. Results in regards to keeping the trailer attached where not so good. The nice part of the story is they where good enough to come back to the list and share the real life story of what happened. See the thread Jetta Towing Issues ......caution.

Although we have a lot of nice well meaning folks here, you can be sure that none of them will help pay for any legal fees to defend your decision in a Civil personal injury legal case should you seriously injured or killed someone.

Before this thread dies out someone here will ask they be shown proof that there has every been anyone sued for having caused an injury or death to someone as a result of towing with a vehicle that was not rated to tow anything or an over weight trailer. No one here will be able to respond with direct evidence for two reasons. One is that in order to do a complete search of all civil personal injury case details, one would need to pay for access to the data base which the information is obtainable - does not appear in my time here that we have many if any practising personal injury lawyers hanging out here that would have that access. Secondly, there are so many personal injury civil cases launched everyday in NA that few make the papers and they are more often than not settled before they even go to court and the settlements are often done with a non disclosure clause. So not much out there on the public internet for Google to find for you

[Carol H]

Originally Posted by Felix47

I tow a 16 foot Casita with an Acura RSX which is the same as a Honda Civic but with 200HP full on. If it is windy, rainy or too late I don't drive. Never go over 50. Electric brakes. Only problem is the weight on the hitch so I take the propane tanks off and pulled the front A/C out which never worked well anyway. I keep it dry with no fluids and empty. I have no idea what the trailer weighs. I get 24 MPG highway.....towing..... Sounds like the VW would work too.

Real good thing you live in California were they restrict towing speeds to 55mph and it is more often than not sunny out.

Highly recommend you travel only in California. If you were to venture outside of that state you may find yourself parked on the side of the road a lot waiting for the wind and rain to stop or waiting for a ticket to be written for driving to slow.

[MC1]

Originally Posted by Azmordean

Hey everyone! I've been lurking here a while, and decided to finally sign up and ask my question. I currently drive a 2011 Golf GTI. I suddenly find myself with a hankering for a small camper -- I'm leaning toward something like a Scamp 13.

I can't conceive a reason it wouldn't be based on the above, but would love some thoughts from folks towing small trailers with small cars.

Good day Jim. I am a big fan of towing with a performance based car and one who actually is doing it. Handling, power, reliability, is top notch.

There are many historical cases of Golfs towing trailers all over the world including North America. Here are some great examples and very few are under 1,000lbs. https://www.bing.com/images/search?q...er&FORM=HDRSC2

Like any car or TV the key is in the set up. On our car we use a custom 2" receiver and a WDH that spreads out the tongue weight on the car for an optimal balance. Good luck with your Golf towing research. If you set it up right, in the end you should have a great towing rig. Note..... recommend the use of a highly rated towing professional to advise on your rig and set up.

[Carol H]

Originally Posted by MC1

Like any car or TV the key is in the set up. On our car we use a custom 2" receiver and a WDH that spreads out the tongue weight on the car for an optimal balance. Good luck with your Golf towing research. If you set it up right, in the end you should have a great towing rig. Note..... recommend the use of a highly rated towing professional to advise on your rig and set up.

Perhaps at this point MC1 you could add some information of value to this discussion by outlining why or why not the set it up he already had installed on the car (A class I hitch ) may not be "set up right" by your standards.

What does he need to change and add equipment wise to the vehicle and how much will it cost to have it "set up right" to meet your "Pro" standards.

[redbarron55]

Go with the Euro hitch and pay the extra and it will do everything the manufacturer says it will and also meet the 1 million load cycle test as required by law.
Hitches me in the US do not mount in the proper manner nor in the required places.
I don't know how Can - am. Can operate VW all over Canada towing Airstream without being arrested, but they seem to be able to mount hitches and tow quite well.
However it is not worth more effort to go into towing with VWs.
The OP asked what the car would tow and the answer is on the VW UK site for GB.
For whatever reason VW chooses to not recommend towing with the same cars in the US.

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[MC1]

Originally Posted by Carol H

Perhaps at this point MC1 you could add some information.....

Carol, I am just a student in the fine art of towing fundamentals. Jim already has the key links to get him headed in the right direction.

[Azmordean]

Originally Posted by Carol H

First off lets look at some facts:

A 13' Scamp loaded for camping is going to weigh more than 1500lbs.
See the thread Trailer Weights in the Real World - 13' Scamps weighed in at between 1620lbs to 1950lbs. I know of another that weighed in at over 2000lbs loaded with no water in the tanks.

I'm planning on getting mine without a bathroom, and without a hot water heater. My understanding is those are the two items many folks have that push higher weight numbers. I'd also get the standard rather than the deluxe. My assumption keeping all that in mind was in the 1500 range, I could of course be wrong. Will investigate further.

Originally Posted by Carol H

The Golf GTI is built in Mexico not Europe. There are differences between the European built Golf vs the one built for the NA market and the engine is not the only thing different. Suspension is also different amongst other things. North American's like a softer ride.

I'm not certain you are correct about the suspension -- the GTI is targeted as a performance hatch, so I'd be surprised if they made it a highway cruiser. Regardless, in my case, it doesn't matter -- the new GTI is built in Mexico, but my 2011 was built in Wolfsburg, Germany -- the last model year to be built there I believe. W VIN code and all.

Originally Posted by Carol H

Your Golf may well have the same engine as the Tiguan but thats about it when it comes to similarities. Engine power is not the only factor that goes into determining a vehicles suitability for towing. The body design of the two vehicles is totally different. For example there are many differences between the Tiguan and the Golf specs: ground clearance, Curb weight, wheel base, length, payload, to name just a few - all of which can and will impact how well a vehicle tows are does not tow.

Agreed the body style of Tiguan and Golf are quite different, though they are built on an identical platform. But, not to bring up Europe again -- I agree the comparison can't be made always -- but here it certainly can. I agree that all things aren't equal between the US and Europe -- but one thing that is is body style of the Golf, regardless of model. And it repeatedly wins best tow car awards. So I don't think you can argue the body style is bad for towing.

Originally Posted by Carol H

In Europe they have across the country towing speed limits. In a greater part of Europe towing speed is 80 kph (50 mph). Even the famous Autobahn which is well known for high speed driving is only 50mph when towing. Anyone who has towed a trailer for more than a week or two knows that speed impacts towing in a big way and not just gas milage. If towing at speeds at 50mph or less you could tow just about anything with LOTS of vehicles rated to tow nothing here in NA .... BUT when towing at highways speeds of 65 mph and some places greater that all changes fast and not in a good way.

Agree speed is a factor. One must be reasonable in setting their speed based on conditions, towing, etc. I see plenty of people towing at negligent speeds with F350 Diesels. The speed thing is something to keep in mind when towing, and adjust, not necessarily a reason not to tow at all.

Originally Posted by Carol H

In Europe they use a very different hitch system - both in design and how they attach them to the vehicle than we do in NA. You will not see anything in Europe that looks anything like the NA Class I hitch you have attached to your Golf.

Hitch attachment points on the car are often very different than those used in NA and each hitch installed in Europe has stamped right on it what its max tow rating is and that rating will match exactly what the auto manufacture has stated the car can tow - No more. You get caught with a hitch on a car in Europe that was not designed specifically for that car and stamped as such, you have yourself a REAL big problem. We have a member here who like the OP thought they would test the waters in regards to towing with another popular VW that is used for towing in Europe often. Results in regards to keeping the trailer attached where not so good. The nice part of the story is they where good enough to come back to the list and share the real life story of what happened. See the thread Jetta Towing Issues ......caution.

Very interesting -- I Wasn't aware of the hitch differences. Will research. This likely does indeed weigh in favor of not moving forward.

Originally Posted by Carol H

Although we have a lot of nice well meaning folks here, you can be sure that none of them will help pay for any legal fees to defend your decision in a Civil personal injury legal case should you seriously injured or killed someone.

Before this thread dies out someone here will ask they be shown proof that there has every been anyone sued for having caused an injury or death to someone as a result of towing with a vehicle that was not rated to tow anything or an over weight trailer. No one here will be able to respond with direct evidence for two reasons. One is that in order to do a complete search of all civil personal injury case details, one would need to pay for access to the data base which the information is obtainable - does not appear in my time here that we have many if any practising personal injury lawyers hanging out here that would have that access. Secondly, there are so many personal injury civil cases launched everyday in NA that few make the papers and they are more often than not settled before they even go to court and the settlements are often done with a non disclosure clause. So not much out there on the public internet for Google to find for you

I used to practice personal injury law myself, so I am quite aware of possible risks. I believe most incidents involving trailers likely boil down to some combination of speed and improper towing setup (no brakes, etc) rather than SUV vs not. There are some times it may be negligent to tow period as well -- for example, if you see on the news that winds are blowing tractor trailers over, you probably shouldn't get on the road with a box trailer of any kind. Regardless, all of the points are well taken and I'm leaning strongly towards sticking with the tent . I'll keep researching though!

[Carol H]

Originally Posted by redbarron55

I don't know how Can - am. Can operate VW all over Canada towing Airstream without being arrested, but they seem to be able to mount hitches and tow quite well.

Why would Can-Am face arrest? An owner of the vehicle can add to it what ever they want and do with it what ever they want and at the end of the day it is the owner of the vehicle who will face what ever ramifications there may be as a result of the changes/modifications/usage of the vehicle.

Having said that, there are some other well respected hitch "PRO's" in this country who will not install a hitch on a vehicle that is not rated by the manufactures to tow anything. Reason for that? My guess is either either insurance company has advised them they will not cover them in regards to 3rd party liability issues or they have learned through the school of hard knocks its a bad idea.

There is a rumour that even Can-Am has been known to decline a job or two due to thinking it to be a real bad idea as well

[Carol H]

Originally Posted by Azmordean

I'm planning on getting mine without a bathroom, and without a hot water heater. My understanding is those are the two items many folks have that push higher weight numbers. I'd also get the standard rather than the deluxe. My assumption keeping all that in mind was in the 1500 range, I could of course be wrong. Will investigate further.

Having been present at a number of those weigh ins I would suggest that most of the Scamp 13's listed on the Real World Weight thread where basic Scamps with no bathrooms. 13's with Bathrooms are not overly popular/common.

Up here we have more 13 Boler's than Scamps and none of them ever came with Bathrooms and the Scamp 13 was built originally from the same mold originally.

So far I have not meet a single party who has actually weighed their boler who will suggest it weighs less than 1500lbs. ;-)

[Carol H]

Originally Posted by Azmordean

I'm not certain you are correct about the suspension -- the GTI is targeted as a performance hatch, so I'd be surprised if they made it a highway cruiser. Regardless, in my case, it doesn't matter -- the new GTI is built in Mexico, but my 2011 was built in Wolfsburg, Germany -- the last model year to be built there I believe. W VIN code and all.



Agreed the body style of Tiguan and Golf are quite different, though they are built on an identical platform. But, not to bring up Europe again -- I agree the comparison can't be made always -- but here it certainly can. I agree that all things aren't equal between the US and Europe -- but one thing that is is body style of the Golf, regardless of model. And it repeatedly wins best tow car awards. So I don't think you can argue the body style is bad for towing.

As you probably appreciate this is not the first rodeo here in regards to a thread on the topic of these vehicles.

If you do a search you on the past threads you will find a a link to a video of an interview with a top dog at VW Germany where they clearly acknowledge the suspension to be one of the differences between autos of the same model name built in Germany Vs Mexico. The thread is probable a couple of years old now. The fact yours was built in Germany as you say negates that factor regardless.

While you may believe the Tiguan and Golf to be the same platform the difference in their heights, weights, length etc suggest differently.

Anyone here who has towed with a number of different sized vehicles (big trucks, little trucks and small passenger vehicles) knows that some of those numbers will play a big part in how well the vehicle tows and how well it does not under various conditions. Distance from hitch to axle, length of wheel base are just a couple of factors that will play into how well a vehicle will tow. I BTW I would be the first to suggest that my much smaller previous tow vehicle provided a far more solid tow with a basic standard hitch equipped on it when pulling the same trailer that my current tow vehicle tows. The later large vehicle has had to have a few extra bits of equipment added & lots of adjustments made to the set up to achieve a solid tow. So I am not a party that would suggest for a minute that a truck is the only vehicle to use to tow safely... actually far from it!

At the end of the day you are the only party who can decide what level of liability you are comfortable living with.

For many it often comes down to the simple question as to What do you own that your not willing to risk losing?

[redbarron55]

The golf, Jetta, and Tiguan are all built on the same MLB platform along with the Audi A 4.
There are of course some detail changes, but many of the parts will interchange. For example the more upscale Audi has the suspension tuned for a sportier ride.
The other manufacturers envied VW their modular designs and cost savings, but when there is a problem it covers a multitude of their product lines. Current 2 liter Diesel woes for example.
As a case on point I used Audi front suspension parts when I rebuilt the front end of my 2009 Jetta wagon.
I could have installed Tiguan springs to make it ride higher if I had wanted to.
There is a great commonality of parts and systems across the VW lines. While there are detail differences from product zones there is very much more commonality. One can check ETKA and see exactly what parts are installed where.
Since no minds will be changed and I have had my say I am finished on this thread. It is a discussion that goes nowhere. I tow with my TDI Sportwagen and I am happy with it.


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[MC1]

JD, what you posted in the previous post is so true. Many of us get it while others do not. Thnxs for posting.

PS: I used rear springs from the G35 sport model which gave me a little more firmness on the rear of the car. I also had the option of using springs from the G35X which would have gave me a slight lift. I like options.

[Bob Miller]

Hmmmmm,,, Considering todays news, maybe suggesting that there wasn't a viable towing capacity was one of the honest things that VW has done in recent times....LOL


And thank you Carol, please save that clip for future use for those that consider themselves smarter than VW's engineers who, after all, were smart enough to fool every one for 11 million vehicles. That's pretty darn smart in my book.


TV's are often like a spouse. Don't be in the business of changing them, change yourself first.....

[Glenn Baglo]

And, as always, it's the tow capacity in the vehicle manual that matters.
This sticker is on my Pro Series weight distribution hitch.
My RAV4 V6 Sport is rated 3,500 lbs with 350 lbs tongue weight, and that's the number, not what's on the hitch.

[redbarron55]

The post on the failure of the Jetta hitch mounts is typical of the US made mounts for VWs. The engineers actually designed in the hitch mounting as required by Euro law and the euro hitches must mount there in the side rails and not the the trunk sheetmetal for obvious reasons.
The euro system also mandated the height of the ball for the TV and the trailer so adjustable hitches are not required or desirable.
The balls are not fastened on individually, but rather a part of a forged piece since many of the anti sway devices work by clamping friction material tightly against the ball and one that would unscrew would not work well.
The Euro zone has coordinated regulations unlike the US where pretty much anything goes on a state by state basis.
I don't expect anyone to agree, but the Euro system is well thought out and is safe.
In the case of the GTI the OP asked what would be reasonable in the absence of information from VW US. The UK has numbers whether you agree with them or not.
The no towing form VW is is more of a marketing decision than an engineering one.
Also most of these SUVs are nothing more than taller passenger cars and are built on the same platforms with taller springs and taller bodies which raise the center of gravity and degrade stability. They have tow ratings from the manufacturer because marketing demands it.
In the case of VW (not an example of extreme integrity probably like most of the other manufacturers) if they had tow ratings on the passenger cars in this country they would have a harder time selling the Tiguan and Touareg at all.
The same applies to some extent to the other CUV/SUV - passenger car platform pairs.
The money is in the more popular taller cars now.
But briefly back to the VW if you want to install a trailer hitch make sure you install a hitch that meets the Euro standard and mounts in the frame pockets provided for then by the design engineers. Other wise you risk having the sheetmetal at the attach points fail as outlined above.
Don't condemn a trailer hitch/car because the owner failed to follow the manufacturer's procedure.

Those long arms on the ends of the crossbar fit way up into the frame rails into the strongest part of the rear end and this setup is designed to meet or exceed the Euro specifications for towing with this car in the Euro zone. Wether you agree or not it is not wise to used the ratings without the complete setup designed for its use. This includes the trailer stabilization electronics etc.