Towing with VW Golf GTI

[marijke]

Here are some maximum speeds per country, 1st column is high/freeway, 2nd byways/country roads.
The link to DEKRA explains the 100km max sticker for Germany (and Austria) Bing's your buddy to translate ;-)
I like how this thread uncovers the very different travel cultures on different sides of the same pond.
Maybe at VW everyone feels bad enough right now to put the euro tow rating on their cars, if we ask them ;-)

Tempo-100-Plakette für Gespanne (Fahrzeugkombinationen) - DEKRA
Maximumsnelheden

Maximumsnelheden in Europa buiten de bebouwde kom met een (geremde) caravan in kilometers per uur.

Land
Snelwegen
Overige wegen
België
(auto + caravan boven 3500 kg) 120
(90) 90 Bosnië en Herzegovina 80 80 Bulgarije 100 70 Denemarken 80 70 Duitsland (klik voor de voorwaarden voor 100 km/u) 80 80 Estland 90 70 Finland 80 80 Frankrijk /bij regen
(auto + caravan boven 3500 kg)* 130 /110
(90) 90
(80) Griekenland 80 80 Groot-Brittannië 96 80 Hongarije 80 70 Ierland 80 80 Italië 80 70 Kroatië 90 80 Letland 90 80 Litouwen 90 90 Luxemburg 90 75 Nederland 90 80 Noorwegen 80 80 Oostenrijk
(auto + caravan boven 3500 kg ) 100
(80)
80
(70)
Polen 80 70 Portugal 100 70 Roemenië 90 70 Rusland 90 70 Servië 80 80 Slovenië 100 90 Slowakije 90 90 Spanje ** 90 70 Tsjechië 80 80 Zweden 80 80 Zwitserland 80 80 * In Frankrijk betreft het de toegestane treinmassa zoals dat op het kentekenbewijs of op het typeplaatje van het trekkend voertuig vermeld staat! Dus onafhankelijk van de mogelijk lager (toegestaan) gewicht van de caravan.
** Combinaties > 12 m dienen achter voorzien te zijn van 1 grote (1300x250 mm) of 2 kleine (500x250 mm of type ECE70 van 565x250 mm) gele reflectoren met rode rand. Horizontaal of verticaal - de kleine - vanaf 50 cm tot 150 cm vanaf de grond. Deze borden zijn tevens legaal in Portugal en in Frankrijk indien toegestaan treingewicht > 3500 kg.
Disclamer
Aan deze informatie kunnen geen enkele rechten ontleend worden. Caravantrekker.nl is niet aansprakelijk voor eventuele onjuistheden of (schade) claims. Bijgewerkt op 3 september 2015.
(bron: o.a. ADAC)

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[MC1]

Originally Posted by marijke

Here are some maximum speeds per country, 1st column is high/freeway, 2nd byways/country roads.
The link to DEKRA explains the 100km max sticker for Germany (and Austria) Bing's your buddy to translate ;-)

100klm's per hour is 62 MPH here. That is what we cruise at when towing. Not much difference between Germany and here.

[marijke]

This URL is less messy:

Caravantrekker.nl - Maximumsnelheid met de caravan

[David Tilston]

Originally Posted by redbarron55

The no towing form VW is is more of a marketing decision than an engineering one.
Also most of these SUVs are nothing more than taller passenger cars and are built on the same platforms with taller springs and taller bodies which raise the center of gravity and degrade stability. They have tow ratings from the manufacturer because marketing demands it.
In the case of VW (not an example of extreme integrity probably like most of the other manufacturers) if they had tow ratings on the passenger cars in this country they would have a harder time selling the Tiguan and Touareg at all.

You are singing my song.

There are those on this site that consider manufacturer RECOMMENDATIONS as law. They talk about how insurance will not cover you if you go over these recommendations, and in some extreme circumstances, this has happened. But what is liability? Is it not when you are at fault? Why would towing over the recommended limit be any worse then running a stop sign? Otherwise, how would all those motorcycles be able to pull a trailer. I highly doubt that they are rated to tow.

This is not to imply that a motorcycle should be towing a 40 ft fifth wheel. It's just that tow limits are not written in stone.

It should be noted though, I am WAY under my towing limit on my Savana.

[Bob Miller]

Here's a towing speed/restrictions chart in English that we have referenced in the past.


Of special interest is that to tow at 100 KPH in Germany requires a special TUV test, where as US laws have no such requirement with speed limits up to 80 MPH (Abt 140 KPH) which, in itself, would be a good reason to limit towing limits on even identical vehicles when sold in the US.


Speed limits | Overseas Holidays | The Caravan Club


California limits all towed vehicles, including commercial vehicles, to 55 MPH (90 KPH) and, big surprise, we still get where we are going.


BTW: In Germany that hitch part with the ball has a colloquial name normally used to refer to the man part of a small horse who's initials might be DD....LOL


Speed limits | Overseas Holidays | The Caravan Club

[Bob Miller]

Originally Posted by David Tilston

You are singing my song.

There are those on this site that consider manufacturer RECOMMENDATIONS as law. They talk about how insurance will not cover you if you go over these recommendations, and in some extreme circumstances, this has happened. But what is liability? Is it not when you are at fault? Why would towing over the recommended limit be any worse then running a stop sign? Otherwise, how would all those motorcycles be able to pull a trailer. I highly doubt that they are rated to tow.

This is not to imply that a motorcycle should be towing a 40 ft fifth wheel. It's just that tow limits are not written in stone.

It should be noted though, I am WAY under my towing limit on my Savana.

=========================================

Mf course, manufacturers cannot make "Laws" concerning the use of their products, that's a given. However, intentional use of a product beyond the intended use or specific limits recommended by a manufacturer, puts one more nail in, the liability coffin that goes with life in general and, in this discussion specifically, towing.

Think of a juror sitting on a trial where and the case is being made that an accident occurred because the driver lost control, and the trailer being towed was 50% over the manufacturers limit. That would be a contributing factor that using the "Same as the European version" defense will go nowhere.

And wasn't it motioned earlier that the RCMP will cite just for towing over the manufacturers limit in B.C?

As mentioned, one can always ask their ins. company and atty about what can happen, in terms of liability, if towing overweight , but I am sure many don't/won't because they don't want to hear the answer.

And what Joe motorcycle owner does has no bearing whatsoever on this discussion

[scamp]

In an old Scamp brochure from the 70's there is a Pinto Wagon as a TV for a 13 and that was a pretty weak vehicle. The only thing it had going for it was a real frame.

[David Tilston]

Originally Posted by Bob Miller

And what Joe motorcycle owner does has no bearing whatsoever on this discussion

Why not? Same roads, same insurance issues, same laws. What is 50% over nothing?

[Bob Miller]

Originally Posted by David Tilston

Why not? Same roads, same insurance issues, same laws. What is 50% over nothing?

I was referring to the motorcycle owners......

[David Tilston]

Originally Posted by Bob Miller

I was referring to the motorcycle owners......

OK, now I am lost. What do you mean?

[Azmordean]

I also do think there's a difference between towing above the published tow limit of the vehicle, and the situation I'm in where the manufacturer has left the chart blank.

All cars can tow *something* so leaving it blank or saying "you can but not recommended and we won't tell you a weight," I do believe this is just a combination of marketing and being lazy.

Let's be honest. The VW GTI is a "hot hatch." In the US in particular, the number of people interested in this type of car also interested in towing with it is tiny. From VWs perspective, there's just no reason to even bother rating the vehicle. For the tiny number who do ask about towing, the strategy also offers an upsell possibility to the Tiguan, which, fully loaded, costs $8-10k more than a similarly loaded GTI. There's some argument in US at least that including towing rating would even detract from the "sporty" view of the GTI. So I'm not surprised by VWs strategy. With my research, I feel relatively comfortable that the car, properly set up, would be capable of towing a Scamp 13.

What I am also convinced of, is the Class 1 Hidden Hitch I have, while it is mounted under the car and not to the bumper, is probably not the best choice for towing. Maybe some tiny trailer with a lawn mower on it, but it's really there for what I bought it for -- a bike rack or ski rack or gear rack. I think if I want to do this something like the Euro assembly show in this thread is theway to go. I will chat with the Can Am folks and see what they think.

I will do nothing soon regardless. The whole thing is looking to be a fairly expensive proposition. I called around, storing the trailer alone here in the SF Bay Area looks to cost me 150 or so per month. Add on the trailer, the cost of the special hitch and electronics setup, the long long trip to pick up the trailer and get the car set up, etc, and it becomes a serious undertaking both time wise and financially. I want to be sure I will camp a lot before I move forward.

Right now I don't go often, mainly because the packing, set up, etc, turns it into too much of a production for a weekend trip. This attracted me to the idea of a small trailer -- hook up and go. I will try streamlining my tent camping procedure though, and see how that goes, and keep exploring the options for a trailer and towing if I decide to go that route down the road.

[MC1]

Originally Posted by David Tilston

OK, now I am lost. What do you mean?

I think what Bob is trying to say is don't tow with a motorcycle unless the car has a tow rating

[David Tilston]

I wonder if that police officer will be covered by his insurance if he gets into an accident?

Is that a VW he is towing?

[Carol H]

Originally Posted by Bob Miller

And wasn't it motioned earlier that the RCMP will cite just for towing over the manufacturers limit in B.C?

In BC they do have road side checks but they are mainly checking that you are not over the GVWR & have safety chains connected etc. Mostly pickups with campers & 5th wheels they are after - although pick up campers & boat combos are very high on their radar & have a fairly high success rating of having boats and trailers dropped on the road side due to being be over the GVWR. They have also been known to discuss tow rating capacities of vehicles and conducting some serious road side chats even if found not to be over GVWR. Serious enough to cause more than one party I know to change tow vehicles as a result.

I would not assume that if your pulling a fiberglass trailer to be left out of the above fun. For example there is a VERY popular fiberglass 5th wheel a fair number of members here own. Some are pulling it with a mid sized truck..... only problem is that truck depending on which cab model they own may have a pretty low pay load rating. So each and every time they bring that trailer into BC to attend a rally they are running the risk of having to drop it at the side of the road while they either go and buy themselves a new truck with enough payload capacity or arrange to have someone else pull it out of the province.

Its the same with small autos with no towing rating assigned. Odds are they also have a low payload - add in the wife, child, family dog, a bit of stuff in the trunk, a full tank of gas and 150/200lbs of trailer tongue weight and BINGO!

We have a Government owned/operated insurance company here in BC that we all have to purchase our base insurance from and they have a hand out called "Towing A Recreational Trailer" which is also available on line. Reading Page 5 is recommended It reads in part:

"Towing and Weight Capacity
You need to know the trucks:
-towing capacity rating.
-GVWR and
-Load Capacity
These are usually listed in your owners manual and on a plate or decal on the vehicle.
Make sure the truck's towing capacity, GVWR and load capacity are rated for the load to be carried and the trailer you want to to tow. "

Beside the above there is a Highlighted box titled "Fast Facts" which reads:
"Exceeding the GVWR, Load Capacity or towing capacity is unsafe and may void the warranty on the vehicle.
Motor Vehicle Act Regulations prohibit that are unsafely or improperly loaded, or exceed the weight rating."

I will leave it to you to decide if you think they are going to pay for a claim, if you where to have an accident & where found to be at fault for it and they found you were "knowingly" pulling a trailer over the auto manufactures stated tow rating &/or GVW & they felt that in some small way that was a contributing factor.

As this particular Insurance company is not known for playing nicely with its customers, its been my personal observation that those with the most to lose in regards to personal assets don't take a chance on it.

[redbarron55]

Originally Posted by scamp

In an old Scamp brochure from the 70's there is a Pinto Wagon as a TV for a 13 and that was a pretty weak vehicle. The only thing it had going for it was a real frame.

If I remember correctly the Pinto is also unibody and no frame!

Also Can-AM is a Canadian company that specializes in heavier duty hitches for small cars ans sells Airstream trailers and they sell hitches in Canada and deliver trailers allover and one of their favorite towcars is the TDI VW. How do they get by the seemingly very strict Canadian towing laws?
It would seem that they are buying into an extreme amount of liability by equipping a VW with a hitch and then hooking up an Airstream trailer would it not? How do they get by with that?
I assume they won't sell an Airstream to B.C.


Can-Am RV Centre
42.864036,-81.27949
Box 370, Lambeth Station,
6068 Colonel Talbot Road
HWY #4 (1 km North of Hwy #401)
London, Ontario N6P 1R1
Canada
1.866.226.2678
1.866.CanAmRV
Fax 519.652.2695
email: info@canamrv.ca
- See more at: Can-Am RV :: Contact

For Americans, the typical 4,000-plus-kilogram tow ratings of large trucks ensure they are well within their capabilities. Andy Thomson, the owner of an RV dealership in London, Ont., suggests too that American auto makers won’t put a tow rating on any vehicle that can’t be sold in large numbers at a generous profit (read: pickups and SUVs). And he doesn’t blame them. Citing the litigiousness of American society, he notes: “The vehicle is one-third of the towing of equation; one-third is the trailer, and one-third is the hitch. Car makers have no control over two-thirds of the equation, but if something goes wrong, they’re the first to get sued.”

“But with a profitable SUV,” he says, “it’s worth taking the risk.”



Volkswagen doesn’t publicize tow ratings in Canada, says spokesman Thomas Tetzlaff, “but for customers who have purchased the vehicle and want to tow, we publish it in the owner’s manual.” The ratings listed in the manual are followed by the caution, “Volkswagen does not recommend installing a trailer hitch … if you plan to tow a trailer, please remember your vehicle will be performing a job for which it was not primarily intended. The additional load will affect driveability, handling, fuel economy and performance, and may require (more frequent servicing).”

That said, Thomson is an evangelist for towing with passenger cars, and smaller vehicles in general. His RV store, Can-Am, designs and builds its own weight-distribution tow hitches for the task.

Two years ago, Can-Am’s display at the Toronto RV Show included a small camping trailer hitched to a Fiat 500 – a combo that Thomson drove to the show from London.

“The Fiat had been traded in and was laying around, and there’s not much laying around here that we don’t put a hitch on,” he says.

“It ran at 100 km/h with no headwind; coming home into a headwind, 85 was it. It was a bit underpowered. It’s not a combination we’d endorse without the turbo. But it was solid and stable.”

Can-Am’s display also included a VW Jetta hitched to a 22-foot Vista camping trailer. A 26-foot trailer on display was promoted as tow-able by a V-6 family sedan, and there was a 30-foot Airstream coupled to a Ford Taurus. Thomson has been impressed, too, by the Chrysler 300 with the Pentastar V-6 and eight-speed transmission: “They gave it only a 1,000-pound (454 kilogram) rating because they can’t be bothered.”

[MC1]

Originally Posted by Carol H

In BC they do have road side checks but they are mainly checking that you are not over the GVWR & have safety chains connected etc. Mostly pickups with campers & 5th wheels they are after - although pick up campers & boat combos are very high on their radar & have a fairly high success rating of having boats and trailers dropped on the road side due to being be over the GVWR. They have also been known to discuss tow rating capacities of vehicles and conducting some serious road side chats even if found not to be over GVWR. Serious enough to cause more than one party I know to change tow vehicles as a result.

I would not assume that if your pulling a fiberglass trailer to be left out of the above fun. For example there is a VERY popular fiberglass 5th wheel a fair number of members here own. Some are pulling it with a mid sized truck..... only problem is that truck depending on which cab model they own may have a pretty low pay load rating. So each and every time they bring that trailer into BC to attend a rally they are running the risk of having to drop it at the side of the road while they either go and buy themselves a new truck with enough payload capacity or arrange to have someone else pull it out of the province.

Its the same with small autos with no towing rating assigned. Odds are they also have a low payload - add in the wife, child, family dog, a bit of stuff in the trunk, a full tank of gas and 150/200lbs of trailer tongue weight and BINGO!

We have a Government owned/operated insurance company here in BC that we all have to purchase our base insurance from and they have a hand out called "Towing A Recreational Trailer" which is also available on line. Reading Page 5 is recommended It reads in part:

"Towing and Weight Capacity
You need to know the trucks:
-towing capacity rating.
-GVWR and
-Load Capacity
These are usually listed in your owners manual and on a plate or decal on the vehicle.
Make sure the truck's towing capacity, GVWR and load capacity are rated for the load to be carried and the trailer you want to to tow. "

Beside the above there is a Highlighted box titled "Fast Facts" which reads:
"Exceeding the GVWR, Load Capacity or towing capacity is unsafe and may void the warranty on the vehicle.
Motor Vehicle Act Regulations prohibit that are unsafely or improperly loaded, or exceed the weight rating."

I will leave it to you to decide if you think they are going to pay for a claim, if you where to have an accident & where found to be at fault for it and they found you were "knowingly" pulling a trailer over the auto manufactures stated tow rating &/or GVW & they felt that in some small way that was a contributing factor.

As this particular Insurance company is not known for playing nicely with its customers, its been my personal observation that those with the most to lose in regards to personal assets don't take a chance on it.

It is interesting one of my online pals who has a pro Ontario set up lived in Abbotsford for many years. While he was there he towed all over BC many times and to Florida and back numerous times. I don't know his rig's numbers but it was a Volvo S60 sedan and he was towing a good sized Airstream. He always commented on how well his rig performed and as far as I know was never stopped or approached by the authorities. It is good to hear that there are rules and regs to oversee unsafe rigs though.

[Carol H]

Originally Posted by redbarron55

Citing the litigiousness of American society, he notes: “The vehicle is one-third of the towing of equation; one-third is the trailer, and one-third is the hitch. Car makers have no control over two-thirds of the equation, but if something goes wrong, they’re the first to get sued.”

As the guru of hitches Andy knows what he is talking about and the above pretty well says it all and for those who care to disregard it..... well what can you say.

Andy Thomson owns a LARGE dealership serving much of Eastern Canada and North East USA. He installs a LOT of hitches! LOL A very small percentage of what he installs are on vehicles that do not have the tow rating set by the auto manufacture to tow what his company is hitching up. The majority of the hitches he installs are not what I would class as custom - mostly he installs a good equalizer hitch $$$ and he makes sure the set up has the good coupler and correct hitch drop in place for a balanced level load and the hitch itself is well secured.

Many of the Youtube videos and small vehicle hook ups he does for auto & RV shows are for publicity - something he is good at getting and has helped to make a name for himself as the man to go to for an optimum hitch set up. BUT here is the big problem with his publicity stunts..... some people who have NEVER even towed a garden trailer and who are probable going to tell you the best way to stop a swaying trailer is to hit the gas or tap the tug brakes a few times , will attempt to do the same tug/tow combo and they will attempt to do it with nothing more than off the shelf NA class hitch & maybe an anti sway bar - nothing custom or good at all about the set up. Something Andy himself would never do.

Time and time again there are a handful of people here who encourage those who are clearly new to towing to GO FOR it but fail to emphasize that if they are going to do it they are going to HAVE to spend BIG $$$'s to get it set up correctly. I know more than once someone new here has gone to CanAm for a quote and decided after hearing the cost of a custom set up that they are just going to go with their good old Class II or III hitch a see how it goes due to having been overly encouraged by a few folks here

Its worth keeping in mind while encouraging folks to tow with something the auto manufacture does not rate to tow anything in NA with that you and your family are going be sharing the road with those people.

[Carol H]

Originally Posted by MC1

I don't know his rigs numbers but it was a Volvo S60 sedan and he was towing a good sized Airstream. He always commented on how well his rig performed and as far as I know was never stopped or approached by the authorities. It is good to hear that there are rules and regs to oversee unsafe rigs though.

Its like a lot of things in life - like drunk driving - sometimes you get away with it many many times but then one day your luck runs out.

Besides there are a lot of people who know the locations of the more frequently seen road side check locations and they simple avoid them If you see a bunch of boats or campers or trailers sitting by themselves in a pull out area of a highway you can be sure you just missed one. There a are a couple of frequent hot spots on Vancouver Island as well as in the Interior/Okanagan.

[MC1]

Originally Posted by Carol H

.

Many of the Youtube videos and small vehicle hook ups he does for auto & RV shows are for publicity -

Never heard of such a thing. Can you provide examples??

Originally Posted by Carol H

.
I know more than once someone new here has gone to CanAm for a quote and decided after hearing the cost of a custom set up that they are just going to go with their good old Class II or III hitch a see how it goes due to having been overly encouraged by a few folks here

Hummmm... one could say if it goes well a few dollars saved. If it goes south then it's to late to get the optimal, safe setup. Guess you get what you pay for.

[Carol H]

Originally Posted by MC1

Never heard of such a thing. Can you provide examples??

suspect you have heard of such things happening in the past. Trust me he is not the first company trying to sell something using a vehicle & a larger piece of equipment to get a buyers attention.

Here are a couple of other classic examples of the tactic used by companies to get your attention if the Fiat 500 pulling the much larger Alto (which btw only weighs abt 1700lbs if I am not mistaken) do not do it for you.