Vehicle for mountains

[Del Gue]

Moderator's note: This thread has been split from the RAV4 problems, need new TV thread.

I, also, have a problem. Here it is: I do not own, nor have ever owned, a camper. I plan on retiring in Nov 2020 and moving to Montana in spring of 2021. I plan on doing a lot of camping when I retire there. My old 2001 4x4 Ranger is getting tired. I intend to buy a new vehicle late this year or the first quarter of next year. I'll take a couple years to pay it off, then save up and buy a camper. I am not entirely sure what I want. I have considered A-frames or a Scamp or Idea I15q. I haven't looked at anything yet, but am planning to. I am leaning towards the Scamp or I15q due to the bathroom. Getting old ain't for sissies. Given the high altitude and steepness of some of the mountains out in Montana and the West, I want to make sure I buy a vehicle that has enough guts to pull it up the mountains out there. I want to do it safely and think this is best done without maxing out the tow limit on a vehicle. I have been considering a Nissan Frontier or Xterra with a 6 cylinder engine in a 4x4 variant with tow package, but am now starting to lean towards maybe a Ford F-150 with 8 cylinder engine, 4x4 and the tow package. I'm thinking this will provide a vehicle with plenty of capability to tow the trailer up any mountain and also provide a good vehicle for living in mountainous, snowy places. I've never towed one of these fiberglass trailers and don't know how hard they are to tow up mountains in high altitude. I don't want a vehicle that is going to have to struggle to do it or that will wear the vehicle out prematurely by taxing it overly. What do y'all think?

[War Eagle]

Originally Posted by Del Gue

I don't want a vehicle that is going to have to struggle to do it or that will wear the vehicle out prematurely by taxing it overly. What do y'all think?

Wayne, I know others will add to or take issue with my comments from their experiences, but I grew up in the higher elevations of Colorado (Westcliffe, if anyone is familiar) and drove high elevation mountain passes hauling hay and farm equipment year-round. If peace of mind is a high priority for you, you won't go wrong with a V8 engine in a full-sized truck. Wide stance (helps in those high mountain crosswinds), sturdy frame, and no shortage of horsepower. The main trade-off is lower fuel economy (and the hassle with those darn narrow parking spaces at Wal-Mart!). Trucks from any of the big three US manufacturers (Ford, Chevy, Ram) will have the muscle to do what you want. The difference is your personal preference. People swear the 6-cylinder Ford EcoBoost pulls like an 8-cylinder, but I'm not sure how many of them are pulling at a reasonable speed over 10,000 ft mountain passes in the Rockies. Whatever you decide on, I'd strongly recommend you put a 110V plug-in engine block heater in it. It can be -30 degrees outside, but your engine starts right up (it's already warm from the engine block heater) and the cabin heater starts blowing warm air from the get-go. Just my two cents worth.... Dale

[Del Gue]

Dale,


Btw, my younger brother went to Auburn and got a degree in Forestry. :-) I am looking around now to see what's out there, and I see a Ford F-150 in the FX4 variant that comes with engine block heater. That's something else I am wanting to be on the truck, as although I've never lived in snow country and dealt with such things, I remember some stories from my mom who used to live in New York state, so yeah, an engine block heater is on my list of things I want to be on it. I'm not sure where in Montana I'm gonna land, and since I'll be retired if it snows bad I'll just hunker down making sure I have adequate food and heat, but I was camped in Madison campground last September and the temps in W. Yellowstone have been down to -30 this winter. Babb, near Glacier up in northern Montana, is usually warmer than that by a good spread. In any event, since I'm buying this thing years in advance of both trailering and moving, I want to choose wisely when I make the purchase. Florida is flat...an anemic german shepherd could tow here. But I want to err on the side of prudence and caution for the Rockies. If I was just buying a drive-around car, or gonna use it for tent camping, then I'd go for MPG, but for towing, I have to make performance the priority. It's like a .45...better to have it and not need it, than to need it and not have it. And thanks for your quick reply!
"Roll Tide Roll! Roll Tide Roll! Around the bowl and down the hole, roll Tide roll!"

[War Eagle]

Wayne, I'm pretty sure it's standard on the FX4, but if not, a limited-slip rear differential is a big plus in snow and mud country. So what's a Tide fan doing in Florida?

[Del Gue]

Not a Tide fan, an Auburn fan! And a U.S.F. fan! Been here all my life except for around 4 years in Texas back in the early 80's workin' for K-Fart. If I go on vacation it's usually Glacier or Yellowstone/Tetons, although I've been to multiple parks in Utah, too (Zion, Bryce, Canyonlands, Arches) as well as Grand Canyon and Mesa Verde. Not sure if I'm going out this year or not. I'd like to, mainly to prowl Madison campground looking at trailers and what peeps use to tow them with. I went to Glacier last year but arrived too late, middle of Sept, when they started closing things down, so dropped down to Madison for about 10 days. I've been using a Mountain Hardware Trango Assault tent and Cat's Meow bag, but think I'm gonna move up to a Big Agnes Big House 4 and a rectangle or semi-rectangle bag. I want more room and to be able to get dressed standing up. I'm getting too old for some of this nonsense. That's a main reason for wanting to move up to a camper, plus I'll be spending a lot more time doing it when I'm retired.


And yeah, I think the limited slip differential is standard on that. I was watching The Fast Lane guys on Youtube and they mentioned that the FX4 is the off-road version of the F-150. On the one in the video, they also had some kind of system using the backup camera that projects a line straight back from the centerline of the truck to facilitate backing up to hook on. As I'll be operating solo, that would be very useful.

[Marg]

I love my 012 NIssan Frontier, long bed. It does all I want it to do while towing my 13' Scamp. Margaret

[EcoHeliGuy]

I have a few friends with ecoboost engines.

They all are really impressed with its towing capabilities, pulling heavy loads in the Coastal and Rocky Mountains. But it is a compromise, they tell me that while towing the Ecoboost v6 sucks back fuel like its free.

Everyone of them drive the truck daily and tow a few times a year. The fuel savings over the year are a benefit and the truck pulls like an ox when needed.

If I was going to pull more miles then commute, I would get the V8 or large V6.

Another point if pulling in mountain passes. An ecoboost by virtue of being turbocharged has a low compression ratio. Which means it will not have very effective engine braking down the other side. So more brakes will be used in comparison to a natural aspirated engine.


Sent remotely

[Del Gue]

Margaret,
The Frontier and Xterra were pretty much at the top of my short list until I was reading online and some folks were saying to 'get enough vehicle' for towing both up the steeper mountains of the West and the higher altitudes attendant there, which decreases the performance of the engine. If the altitude decreases engine performance and it is also having to pull a trailer up a mountain as well as get itself up it, I just started thinking that since I'll be buying the vehicle first, the trailer second, and moving out there third, plus be retired and on a fixed income, I'd rather not get something that turns out not to be sufficient or optimal and then have to turn around and get another vehicle already. Better to do it once and do it right, I'm thinking. Doing it with a marginal vehicle, and I'm not necessarily asserting that the Frontier or Xterra are that, not only introduces safety and performance issues, but also could well diminish the lifespan of the vehicle. Were I moving to flatter country, it would prolly be a Frontier or Xterra for sure. You never know...I may wind up in one of those anyway. Cue up Doris Day: "The future's not ours to see, que sera sera!" :-)

[Del Gue]

Walter,
I had originally started out considering a Ford Escape with turbo, but I heard that while they can use regular gas, premium is recommended. That kinda cooled my ardor. At this point, based on the reading I've done, I want no less than a 6 cylinder, and may well go with an 8. I know I'll take a hit on mpg, both due to the 6 or 8 and when towing, but there are times when performance has to be given priority. Geography has to be taken into account in some cases. I am new to all this towing business and intend to proceed carefully.

[steve dunham]

If I recall correctly Ford trucks that are sold in the Northern tier states ( Cold Cimate ) come with a engine block heater as standard equipment . The Dodge Ram trucks have an available engine block heater but it is an option at an additional charge .I tow with a pickup truck and have had both V6 NA and V8 NA engines ( IE non turbo) and thought the V6 towed poorly .I find that the V8 tows better especially in hilly / mountainous terrain. The V6 got better mileage when not towing but when towing the mileage difference between the V6 and the V8 was not enough to matter. IMHO

[EcoHeliGuy]

Originally Posted by Del Gue

Walter,
I had originally started out considering a Ford Escape with turbo, but I heard that while they can use regular gas, premium is recommended. That kinda cooled my ardor. At this point, based on the reading I've done, I want no less than a 6 cylinder, and may well go with an 8. I know I'll take a hit on mpg, both due to the 6 or 8 and when towing, but there are times when performance has to be given priority. Geography has to be taken into account in some cases. I am new to all this towing business and intend to proceed carefully.

The problem with not using the recommended fuel is that the Engine control module has too alter the engine timing and fuel injection dynamics from optimal. And this cases the engine to lose a range of performance as well as stresses components in the timing and injections systems as they weren't designed to maintain those parameters of long periods.

Despite popular belief, higher octane fuel is less combustible, which allows it to withstand higher pressure and heat before knocking or self combustion.

Should a turbo charged engine run on higher octane? Designwise yes.
But North Americans have a hate on for paying more at the pump. So our more mast produced engines are not designed to run on premium. Placing the wrong fuel in your car causes premature wear overtime not over night.

I had a 97 Cherokee with the inline 6 and a manual transmission, if you ran on regular it would knock a lot under load. If you ran the OEM recommended Mid grade it ran perfectly fine and got proper improved fuel mileage.

The problem with the Escape and all uni-body toe vehicles, is the trailer will transmit a lot of sounds into the passages compartment. You will hear the hitch banging and the ball bouncing. Body on frame like a pickup truck has rubber pucks between the frame and cab that removes the sounds from the hitch.

As well for the most part you can't use a weight distribution hitch on a uni-body. A WDH spreads the loads out across both vehicles and makes your ride a lot nicer. Placing weight on the front wheels to maintain steering control. And on a rear axle in a tandem lessening the rear tires from sliding causing overheating and blowouts as easy.


Sent remotely

[Bob Miller]

(Clip) "The problem with the Escape and all uni-body toe vehicles,..."
Can't say that has been my experience at all. A drawbar clamp stops any clicking or slack between the drawbar and the receiver and proper adjustment and greasing of the hitch & ball stops noise from there as well.
We towed three different FGRV's, two right at the weight limit, with a Honda CRV unit construction vehicle and never heard a sound from the hitch area. If we had, we would have known that something was loose....


I don't understand what this means: "And on a rear axle in a tandem lessening the rear tires from sliding causing overheating and blowouts as easy."


What's sliding and what's overheating?

[EcoHeliGuy]

Originally Posted by Bob Miller

(Clip) "The problem with the Escape and all uni-body toe vehicles,..."
Can't say that has been my experience at all. A drawbar clamp stops any clicking or slack between the drawbar and the receiver and proper adjustment and greasing of the hitch & ball stops noise from there as well.
We towed three different FGRV's, two right at the weight limit, with a Honda CRV unit construction vehicle and never heard a sound from the hitch area. If we had, we would have known that something was loose....


I don't understand what this means: "And on a rear axle in a tandem lessening the rear tires from sliding causing overheating and blowouts as easy."


What's sliding and what's overheating?

Bob I agree with your statement on the uni-body, but will point out that the clamp was needed. This is not something that would have been sought after in a body on frame.

With a tandem axle set up, the pivot point for turns and attitude changes occurs on the front axle do to the hitch applying the force. As a result the tires on the rear axle float and follow the tires on the front axle. There is more side loading on these rear tires. Causing higher flexing and heat deterioration. As a result your rears tend to have a higher rate of blowouts. Not to be confused with the normal RH Rear getting nails from the forward tire kicking up trash when driven past the white line.


By using a WDH, your applying equal forces on both tandem axles and although lessening the life of the front tires, all four will wear equally in their life. Resulting in not wearing the rears out faster and less prone to a blowout.


Sent remotely

[Carol H]

Originally Posted by Del Gue

Margaret,
The Frontier and Xterra were pretty much at the top of my short list until I was reading online and some folks were saying to 'get enough vehicle' for towing both up the steeper mountains of the West and the higher altitudes attendant there, which decreases the performance of the engine. If the altitude decreases engine performance and it is also having to pull a trailer up a mountain as well as get itself up it, I just started thinking that since I'll be buying the vehicle first, the trailer second, and moving out there third, plus be retired and on a fixed income, I'd rather not get something that turns out not to be sufficient or optimal and then have to turn around and get another vehicle already. Better to do it once and do it right, I'm thinking. Doing it with a marginal vehicle, and I'm not necessarily asserting that the Frontier or Xterra are that, not only introduces safety and performance issues, but also could well diminish the lifespan of the vehicle. Were I moving to flatter country, it would prolly be a Frontier or Xterra for sure. You never know...I may wind up in one of those anyway. Cue up Doris Day: "The future's not ours to see, que sera sera!" :-)

From the perspective of someone who lives in what some here might call a mountains area and pulls with a V6 Frontier a 16' fiberglass trailer that weighs in at less than half the trucks towing cap its would not be what I would class as a marginal tow. Have pulled with it into the 5000' range a number of times (mountains are hard to avoid around here) as well as to 10,000' range. No complaints. Its actually a 2.4 mile drive and a 900' elevation change from my house to sea level where one needs to get to if they wish to cross the inlet using our #1 highway to get out of town. It has handled that trip up and down just fine many times.

Now if you are considering a trailer over 19' such as a Bigfoot or an Escape then you are probable better off looking for a different vehicle with more tongue/towing cap and power. For starters the Frontiers tongue limit probable would not meet the needs and due to the added weight you may find its small V6 to be a little wanting on the higher/longer passes.

At the end of the day I suspect though that the original poster will be more than happy with her choose of new vehicle to tow her trailer.

[Carol H]

Originally Posted by EcoHeliGuy

The problem with the Escape and all uni-body toe vehicles, is the trailer will transmit a lot of sounds into the passages compartment. You will hear the hitch banging and the ball bouncing. Body on frame like a pickup truck has rubber pucks between the frame and cab that removes the sounds from the hitch.

Hummm interesting. Having pulled with a uni-body Outback for six years all i can say is that was not my experience. Not much sound from the hitch at all. Unless of course I forgot I was pulling the trailer and went over a speed bump a little to fast! Actually can't say I have noticed any difference in sounds when pulling the same trailer with my truck vs the Outback.

[Mike Magee]

My Highlander just had the spiral cable (in steering column, going to the air bags) replaced for a second time, this time under recall warranty; first time cost me $700 3 years ago. And they did the brake/accelerator update as well; this will kill the fuel supply if both pedals are pressed simultaneously, they told me. While it was in there, the (Jim Norton Toyota, Tulsa) service adviser gave me a cockamamie story about my CV boot leaking lubricant and the timing chain cover having a serious oil leak. Funny, there are zero oil spots on my driveway, and I crawled under the thing and couldn't find any fresh grease anywhere around the boots. I hope I never have another recall to deal with, because I never want to go back to the local dealerships... don't trust 'em one bit.

I do get a bit of noise in the unibody from the trailer towing... mostly an occasional loud clank! at highway speeds, which seems to be the flexing of underbody sheet metal. Somewhat unnerving, but I can't see any deleterious effects underneath so I just keep on truckin'. For now. Would like to buy something else soon, though....

Del Gue, my Highlander has 270 HP and 240 lb-ft torque. It has towed a 17' Burro in the Rockies as well as a 16' KZ Escape E14RB which was nearly identical floor plan to that Idea trailer. The Highlander had no problem towing the Burro up the long grades at high altitude. But it did struggle sometimes with the KZ. The extra wind resistance of a squared-off, conventional build 'stickie' trailer is very noticeable. I got 14 mpg towing the Burro, but 12 mpg towing the KZ.

I would like to go with more horses under the hood with my next vehicle, so I agree with your thinking... get "more than enough" and never have to worry. The Ford 5L V8 is a nice engine. So is the 5.7L Hemi in the Ram, Jeep Grand Cherokee and Dodge Durango. Even if you changed your mind and someday bought a trailer in the 20'-25' range, these would still do the job. Or you could go turbo with the Ford 3.5L Ecoboost or the Ram/Jeep 3L Ecodiesel; the turbo has less engine braking, true, but it will hardly lose any power in thinner mountain air (a normally aspirated engine loses about 2% of HP per 1000' of altitude, I've heard). Any of these will tow a Scamp like a bat out of... the bat-cave.

If you want to buy stuff for long term use, I'd recommend the Scamp and one of the Ram/GC/Durango family. Here's why. The stick built TTs are built to last a short while; the sun's UV rays and low-hanging branches take their toll on the seams, and the beating the TT takes on the roads will work to loosen up everything that is attached with fasteners (which is pretty much everything!). But the Scamp's body is like having a one piece unit which includes the interior cabinet bodies and stuff. It's all molded and FG-bonded together. Lots less to maintain, much more durable, and loads better resale value. As for why to get a Chrysler product for long term, I say that because you can buy a lifetime max care extended service contract from Chrysler that will cover just about everything but the obvious wear items, for as long as you own it or until the repair costs more than the vehicle's value (at which time they pay you the vehicle's value, and they're done). This is not available on the diesel vehicles, regrettably, but you can get it on just about any other new vehicle they make. Unless you enjoy doing all of your own repairs, this deal could save you a ton.

[VicCT]

Hi y'all, just checking back in so you know I am still around and reading. I love how conversations on here ping and pong all over. Wayne, if I were you I would get the V8. While I do plan on driving around out west in the mountains a couple/few times in my truck, if I lived there I would want more truck. And since you don't know the trailer you will be getting, makes most sense to make sure you are covered. Like you, I don't like to push the tow capacity, which I why I bought a Frontier to tow a little 13' front bunk scamp.

We had quite the snowstorm in CT today, so I did not hear from my dealer re: delivery date. Spent a significant amount of time on the inter webs trying to figure out things like which tonneau cover/which roof rack/will new leather void my warranty or interfere with side air bags/which side rails have brackets that won't rust in the northeast. Basically, with all of the add ons I will have to buy to get my rig ready, well, let's not think about it.

Thanks for all of your input on accessories. Right now, leaning toward the BAKflipG2 tonneau cover (don't want to climb around inside a shell with my bad back). That's about the only decision I have kind of almost made. But I am going to drive the truck for awhile first and see how I am using it before I decide.

Regarding the Toyota issue, I don't want to post about it before I have finished the deal. Should be picking up my truck Wednesday or Thursday. Will provide details after that. Suffice to say, not happy at all with Toyota.

[Bob Miller]

Per Post #134
Gooooly, I have always used the little "U" shaped clamp, now for close to 40 years of towing and found that it improved towing comfort on what ever I was pulling with. Right now it is on the drawbar of my 2003 Blazer 2dr, but one has been on Honda's, Toyota Trucks, A Mercedes Diesel, Sonoma Pick-up, a 1972 Blazer for a year of full-timing pulling an Airstream, and the list goes on. it's always been a part of my tow gear and I always put one on anyone else's rig that I set up for towing. As the man sez, "Don't leave home without it!"


The theory of scrubbing tires on dual axles sounds viable on paper, but not so much in practice. I can't say that I have ever heard that as being a problem, with or without wd hitches. And, considering that most trailers time out on tires long before wearing them out, I think that it's sorta a moot point. Is there other documentation available about how much of a problem this is?

[Carol H]

Originally Posted by VicCT

Thanks for all of your input on accessories. Right now, leaning toward the BAKflipG2 tonneau cover (don't want to climb around inside a shell with my bad back).

Do not think you will be at all sorry for that decision! Love the looks of my fiberglass tonneau but anytime I want to carry something tall in the box or have to crawl into the box to pull something out that has slid up towards the cab I curse it & silently wish I had a BAKflip.

[Del Gue]

At this point in time, after having had a conversation with my father today about the matter, I think I can safely say that I've pretty well decided to eliminate the A-frames from consideration for various reasons.


The only drawbacks to the Scamp, as I see it, are first, it's a long freakin way to Minnesota, and while I'm not above a road trip, did I mention it's a long freakin way to Minnesota?


Second, and more to my concern, what happens if after 1 year or 14 months or whatever I have a problem and need service on it for something? What do Scamp owners do? Do they have to journey clear to Minnesota to get something done? Another brand of trailer, bought at a 'local' dealer, would seem to simply be a case of taking it back to the dealer and having them fix it. If this concern sounds naïve or foolish, then you'll just have to bear with me, because I'm new to this game and don't know how things work vis-a-vis trailers. I like the looks of the Scamp, I'm sure it's a fine trailer, and it might even be my preference, but I gotta get a few q's answered and concerns alleviated first. We all know that a certain percentage of everything made, be it toasters, cars, or people, are defective, so ignoring the remote possibility is usually a poor idea.


Btw, I would prolly be looking at something like a Scamp 16 or the equivalent. Whatever I get, I've decided I want a bathroom in it. I at least want the option of using one in my trailer if it's an all-day rain or middle of the night or whatever. I would also want a separate bed and dinette. I don't want to have to put the table up and take it down all the time.


Vicki,
Smart girl! Work the deal, then talk about it. Wise you are!