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Old 09-12-2010, 10:29 AM   #61
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Cool A matter of perspective

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Originally Posted by Jon W View Post
I went fairly slow - 60-65MPH on the interstate - and had no trouble towing it (in fact it towed beautifully), but that was in the flatlands of Illinois on a nice day with almost no wind.
I guess so many are used to going warp speed nowadays that the definition of slow has changed...
Here in California, the Posted Speed Limit for any vehicle towing another vehicle is 55 MPH. While I observe that the majority of drivers ignore the signs, I find that my towing fuel economy peaks around that speed and diminishes the faster I go. I now tow at 55 MPH when towing no matter where I am.
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Old 09-14-2010, 12:26 PM   #62
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checking in

Hey everyone, Just checking in after a few weeks. I never imagined my original post would spark so much 'interest'.

What's interesting (frustrating) to me is the 'talk' about me wanting to tow overweight. My car IS rating to tow 3086 lbs (with brakes) in North America and a 13' boler - fully loaded - is well within my vehicle's tow limits.

According to the manual and the dealer - our VW Golf can tow this camper safely - IF we install trailer brakes but no one here seems to think so....WHY?

Melanie

(I did buy a tent - and it's rained every weekend since! So, we're going to see a couple of bolers this weekend!)
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Old 09-14-2010, 12:56 PM   #63
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Melanie,

Thread kind of took on a life of it's own, didn't it

I think one reason that people might think your car would have been towing overweight (IF you had chosen to tow, which you did not), is that your first post in the thread includes the following:

I have a 2008 VW City Golf (2.0 litre, manual trans) with a Towing Capacity of 1321 lbs (taken from the manual) - trailer hitch Class 1 and 2.

Many people may not have kept reading the whole thread (not saying they shouldn't have) and thus did not find out that your car was rated to tow more.

In addition, as I remember it, your car (and this is not uncommon) - even though it is rated to tow 3,000+# with trailer brakes - also has requirements about total load (in the car) and tongue weight (in combination) that still would have made it difficult (or maybe impossible) for you to tow within ratings considering that you have four passengers and the gear for four passengers, plus general camping gear. These figures can be seen in post #15 on this thread.

Nevertheless, those who have followed the thread know that you decided to wait until you have purchased a vehicle with a higher rating (or one that does not require any "calculating" about vehicle loads, which larger vehicles generally don't) to purchase an egg.

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Old 09-14-2010, 01:05 PM   #64
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Originally Posted by Melanie View Post
Hey everyone, Just checking in after a few weeks. I never imagined my original post would spark so much 'interest'.

What's interesting (frustrating) to me is the 'talk' about me wanting to tow overweight. My car IS rating to tow 3086 lbs (with brakes) in North America and a 13' boler - fully loaded - is well within my vehicle's tow limits.

According to the manual and the dealer - our VW Golf can tow this camper safely - IF we install trailer brakes but no one here seems to think so....WHY?

Melanie

(I did buy a tent - and it's rained every weekend since! So, we're going to see a couple of bolers this weekend!)
Perhaps too many folks are paranoid about this ……. I would be too
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Old 09-14-2010, 01:18 PM   #65
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Originally Posted by Raya L. View Post
Melanie,

Thread kind of took on a life of it's own, didn't it

I think one reason that people might think your car would have been towing overweight (IF you had chosen to tow, which you did not), is that your first post in the thread includes the following:

I have a 2008 VW City Golf (2.0 litre, manual trans) with a Towing Capacity of 1321 lbs (taken from the manual) - trailer hitch Class 1 and 2.

Many people may not have kept reading the whole thread (not saying they shouldn't have) and thus did not find out that your car was rated to tow more.

In addition, as I remember it, your car (and this is not uncommon) - even though it is rated to tow 3,000+# with trailer brakes - also has requirements about total load (in the car) and tongue weight (in combination) that still would have made it difficult (or maybe impossible) for you to tow within ratings considering that you have four passengers and the gear for four passengers, plus general camping gear. These figures can be seen in post #15 on this thread.

Nevertheless, those who have followed the thread know that you decided to wait until you have purchased a vehicle with a higher rating (or one that does not require any "calculating" about vehicle loads, which larger vehicles generally don't) to purchase an egg.

Raya
But the maximum payload of 1168 lbs includes passengers, luggage, etc - and only the tongue weight of the Boler (165 lbs). The camper is only adding 165 lbs to the payload - as I read it.
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Old 09-14-2010, 01:57 PM   #66
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George, that video... while morbidly humorous... is hardly a comparison. The car is question is a super-small Renault with a 59 horsepower engine towing a caravan that weighs well over a ton. I don't know what happened to that Renault, but it was obviously having engine trouble. The driver should not have been on the road with all that smoke blowing out the back.

VW designs their cars to tow... and to tow a pretty hefty load. They do it particularly well, too. Not just the diesels, but even the "old technology" 2.0 gasser. That engine has quite a bit of torque down low. I only wish my 1.8L Toyota engine had that much torque. Mine hits max torque at 4,500 RPM... which I hardly ever see. The VW 2.0 engine in question this max torque at 2,600 RPM.
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Old 09-14-2010, 02:11 PM   #67
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George, that video... while morbidly humorous... is hardly a comparison....
Agree, this panicky moment for the driver is just hilarious.
George.
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Old 09-14-2010, 02:30 PM   #68
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Okay, well let's go back to your figures from post #15. I will put numbers on the rows to make it easier to talk about.

1) Maximum Vehicle Weights (lbs):
2) Total Permissible Weight = 3,946
3) Maximum Payload = 1,168
4) Reg. Vehicle Weight = 2,778 (from the permit)
5) Max front axle load = 2,094
6) Max rear axle load = 2,006
7) Max roof weight = 165

Maximum Permissible Trailer Weights (lbs):
8 )Trailer with brakes = 3,086
9)Trailer without brakes = 1,323
10) Tongue Load = 165

11) "The tongue load increases the weight of the rear axle and correspondingly reduces the other load that your vehicle can carry."

12) "Never exceed the Gross Vehicle Weight, which is the weight of the vehicle, including the driver, passengers, luggage, trailer hitch and tongue weight of the loaded trailer."


Okay, so, in #12 we find out that we can never exceed the gross weight for the car portion, which I am presuming (?) is the same as the "total permissible weight" of 3,946.

In #4, the vehicle weight (reg.?) is listed as 2,778, so subtracting #4 from #12 we have 1,168. So you have 1,168 lbs. for driver, passengers, luggage, trailer hitch, and tongue weight of loaded trailer.

A reasonable real world weight for a "trim" Boler 13' is, say, 1600#. So tongue weight will be about 175#. Two adults probably equal about 350#. Two kids, say 100#. Trailer hitch, say 25#. Gear in trunk..... say 200# So that adds up to 850#. So far, you are okay at 2,778# for the car + 850 for people/tongue/gear, which equals 3628# You have a little over 300# of leeway here, as I see it.

Note that with a 165# maximum tongue load, and a typically recommended 10-15% tongue weight (of your 1600# Boler) you are cutting it close there. You would have to be careful of having full propane tanks or battery on the tongue. I already had 175# as an estimate, but you could probably cut that down if you were careful.

Then you have a permitted rear axle load of 2,006 lb. What we don't know is what the "base" weight of the car on the rear axle is. To that you would need to add say, the 165# tongue weight, the 200# in the trunk, and the two passengers in the back seat. So again, you might be close, but we can't say for sure.

What I don't see here is a maximum combined weight rating. That would be the maximum allowed for the vehicle and the trailer, when both are loaded. Unless I am misunderstanding something.

I think where you would be getting into a bind would be the see-saw between wanting to put more gear in the car, to keep your tongue weight down (you can't just shift weight back in the trailer as too light a tongue is dangerous), but then potentially overloading either the rear axle or that maximum vehicle weight. This is represented in #11.

It seems like you would have to get a few more facts and figures. But obviously it would be close, and I would imagine a family of four would want a cooler, ice, gear, extra clothes, etc. And then there are the various trailer items: Cords, jack stands, chairs, screen tents, etc.

There's nothing wrong with towing close to your limit, but I think with four people and being that close, it might be a bit tiring to have to be so careful about loading. I don't know if we really have enough information to know for sure though (unless, like I said, I'm misinterpreting something).

I would be happy to hear from someone who is better at making these calculations than I am (Brian BP?). My car has enough of a margin that I don't have to really sharpen my pencil (and with only one person in the car, stuff doesn't "add up" in the same way as it does with four).

Raya
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Old 09-14-2010, 02:56 PM   #69
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Raya, I may be oopening another can of worms, but I will say that I don't agree with the 10-15% tongue weight standard... at least not for small trailers and small cars. In Europe (I know you are getting tired of hearing those words) they use 5% as the standard. You will find that Euro spec hitches are almost all rated at 5% tongue weight.

Now, the problem is that Americans, as a whole, tend to drive faster and more carelessly with trailers than our European friends. I, however, tend to drive more like they do. I rarely see 60 MPH when towing. In the (nearly) 20 years I have been towing trailers, I have yet to experience any sway. I believe that most sway is caused by trailers with negative tongue weight. The 10-15% standard seems like overkill just to make SURE that there is weight on the tongue. I really can't believe the way some small trailers are balanced... I have seen 1,200 pound campers with 300 pounds of tongue weight! That is just bad planning, if you ask me.

Of course, some people are bad at judging weight, or don't check the tongue weight at all... and it doesn't help that trailer manufacturers rarely give you a weight that is accurate. The folks at Scamp told me that a trailer with the options I wanted (all options except the bathroom on a 13') would weight between 1,100 and 1,200 pounds!

Now, it doesn't make that much of a difference in your figures, but I have found that the Scamp tows perfectly well behind my little car with about 75 pounds of tongue weight. I had to move some stuff around (including relocating the battery) because the stock tongue weight was 175 pounds.

I do wish someone would make a small, easy to pack scale for weighing the tongue. I have done it plenty of times with a bathroom scale and some pieces of wood, but that's not ideal to travel with. I have seen ones made for heavy trailers that cost a few hundred bucks, but that is overkill. It seems like it could be sold for $40 or $50... I would certainly buy one for that.
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Old 09-14-2010, 10:06 PM   #70
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mcbrew, you may disagree, but facts are that the recommendations are put in place for a reason. Sure it may be some corporate big wig CYA-ing it. But hey, that is the guidelines that are set for USA towing standards on the vehicle she is considering towing with. Frankly, getting any where near tow capacity with children in the car is in my opinion not worth it. Here in Colorado we have had more than one family devastated because they were told that their vehicle would tow the trailer they purchased. And the rv sales man was full of beans, all he wanted to do was sell another rv. In the end, he got his sale and the family on their first camping trip out with their new trailer had a horrible accident that ended in tragedy.

One thing that was brought up in other discussions on this subject, is that a member here has a friend who is currently facing vehicular manslaughter charges for a accident where someone was killed and the Police accident report states the trailer weight was over the tow capacity of the tow vehicle.


Melanie, yes your post kept a heart beat of it's own after you left it. No one was talking about you per-say, just laying out the scenario for the people who seem to think it's ok to push the limits. I am not saying you are pushing the limits with your car, but what I am saying is, you could be.

Have you ever weighted a ice chest full of beer and pop? And the problem isn't the ice chest, it's the bikes, the clothes, food, toy's, bedding, jacks, cords, lawn chairs, etc etc etc all adding to the weight. A good way to determine what you may be looking at as far as weight is, to put together your family's camping gear and weighting it. Everything, pot's pan's, camp stove, lanterns, dishes, lawn chairs, bikes, kids toys, clothes, bedding, etc. That will give you a great idea of what your looking at.



Quote:
Originally Posted by Raya L. View Post

Gear in trunk..... say 200#


Raya
For our camping pleasure I know our gear far exceeds 200 LBS. My easy up awning is a good 55+ pounds. I really should weight everything as it goes in this trip, ugh! I might give it a try. Just to give Melanie an idea of what she may be looking at.
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Old 09-15-2010, 05:35 AM   #71
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mcbrew, you may disagree, but facts are that the recommendations are put in place for a reason.
I disagree... and so does not of the world. The US (and Canada?) recommend 10-15% tongue weight. Most everywhere else recommends 5-10% tongue weight. So, the "facts" are that most places recommend something other than what you are recommending. I'm not saying you are wrong. More tongue weight is usually okay, until it has a detrimental effect on the suspension of the tow vehicle. Too much tongue weight will have an unsafe effect on a car before it does on a truck. Truck rear suspensions are meant for lots of weight, cars are not.

If 5% tongue weight is so unsafe, there should be a LOT of families being killed in Europe... they tow with cars a LOT more than we do.
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Old 09-15-2010, 05:41 AM   #72
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Trailer sway is -primarily- caused by driving too fast. This is something that you just can't prevent some people from doing. Maybe what we need to do is encourage the police to ticket people who are speeding with trailers in tow, much like they do in a lot of European countries.

Just to clarify: I do not want anybody to do anything unsafe. I simply disagree with what you say is dangerous. I also find is kind of funny that people talk about towing ay 65+ MPH and nobody calls them out on being unsafe. We have to share the road with them, too.
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Old 09-15-2010, 08:39 AM   #73
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Yeah, I loved the video clip with the moronic "I think I can, I think I can" imbecile trying to tow his trailer uphill with a piece of junk "toaster-on-wheels." Well, if there ever was any smigen of credibility to how great European requirements are, I think that they just went out the proverbial window! A picture is worth a thousand lawsuits. Luckily no one appeared to have been seriously injured, but it makes a strong point of people trying to "Mickey Mouse" things. Hey! Smell the coffee. It looked like a peanut trying to tow the elephant! Smoke billowing and all, heck it looked almost like a three stooges spoof. Why do people insist on doing stupid things despite lots of good advice? Keep your European towing standards off MY American highways! You people who advocate this baloney are dangerous beyond belief! Those idiots in that video were just darn lucky that no one was coming up the hill behind them. What incompetence, stupidity and blatant disregard for the safety of themselves and of those who may be unfortunate enough to be on the roads around them!
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Old 09-15-2010, 09:11 AM   #74
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mcbrew, I don't think I ever said anything about tongue weight. All I am saying is, there are guide lines set for USA vehicles and just cause "we" know that they can be exceeded doesn't mean they should be. And as far as the towing differences between say European country's and the USA, the mere fact that the driving conditions are completely different! To my knowledge there are not many 4 or more lanes of interstate with a bazillion cars traveling in the same direction. If I remember correctly, I read a camping statistic that stated European campers traveled far less miles on their camping trips then we do. So, less miles traveled on slower less demanding roads and lower speeds would probably mean less issues.


I will add, that the pictures I have seen of European camp out's are far different than the camp out's I have experienced here in the states. They take far less crap then we Americans do, they don't carry a bike, toy's, for every kid. They don't carry TV's Dvd players, Cd players, and everything that goes with them. They don't carry grills, extra stoves etc that you see in every campsite across this country. That or they are super tidy campers! It all adds up! Just a fact!




I might also add, Wheel base (which I believe is a far bigger issue than tow capacity!) as an issue but I don't have time to discuss that. I have a rally to get ready for.
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Old 09-15-2010, 09:35 AM   #75
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Is there really anybody that thinks that video shows a legal European combination of tow vehicle and trailer? My estimate is that the trailer is around twice the safe towing capacity of the car - though it would be more like four times the rating in the US. I appreciate that towing with anything less than a large truck looks dangerous to many North Americans now, but can no-one remember how their parents happily drove thousands of miles towing with a regular sedan?

One reason European trailers can get by with a lower tongue weight is because they are mostly towed at lower speeds. This graph shows tests done on an actual trailer whose weight distribution could be altered.


So the difference between European and North American tongue weights increases the speed at which sway starts by something like 10mph.

Lots of folk seem to think that a certain tongue weight percentage gives a stable trailer under all conditions - but all trailers have a speed at which they will start to sway. And tongue weight alone is not the whole answer - you also need to look at inertia, as this graph from the same study shows:



In this case, the second spot, at 2600 kg m^2 is the stock inertia of this European travel trailer. Put an extra weight on the back end and compensate it by moving some other weight forwards, to give the same tongue weight, and you can move your trailer's inertia to the right end of the graph and knock 10mph off the safe towing speed.
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Old 09-15-2010, 09:54 AM   #76
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[QUOTE=Andrew Gibbens;223440] but can no-one remember how their parents happily drove thousands of miles towing with a regular sedan? [Ouote]



Andrew, I totally understand what your saying, but lets be honest. My Grandparents (my parents always towed with a truck ) sedan weighted in much heavier than the cars of today! Much bigger, heavier, longer wheel based, vehicles than today's sedans.

Ok, back to getting ready for the rally............. LOL........
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Old 09-15-2010, 10:22 AM   #77
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Originally Posted by Greg Finke View Post
Yeah, I loved the video clip with the moronic "I think I can, I think I can" imbecile trying to tow his trailer uphill with a piece of junk "toaster-on-wheels." Well, if there ever was any smigen of credibility to how great European requirements are, I think that they just went out the proverbial window! A picture is worth a thousand lawsuits. Luckily no one appeared to have been seriously injured, but it makes a strong point of people trying to "Mickey Mouse" things. Hey! Smell the coffee. It looked like a peanut trying to tow the elephant! Smoke billowing and all, heck it looked almost like a three stooges spoof. Why do people insist on doing stupid things despite lots of good advice? Keep your European towing standards off MY American highways! You people who advocate this baloney are dangerous beyond belief! Those idiots in that video were just darn lucky that no one was coming up the hill behind them. What incompetence, stupidity and blatant disregard for the safety of themselves and of those who may be unfortunate enough to be on the roads around them!
I attached this clip as a joke, apparently not for everyone. The “toaster” was Renault 5 and I believe it exceeded all towing standards by a large margin.
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Old 09-15-2010, 01:40 PM   #78
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Is there really anybody that thinks that video shows a legal European combination of tow vehicle and trailer? My estimate is that the trailer is around twice the safe towing capacity of the car - though it would be more like four times the rating in the US. I appreciate that towing with anything less than a large truck looks dangerous to many North Americans now, but can no-one remember how their parents happily drove thousands of miles towing with a regular sedan?

One reason European trailers can get by with a lower tongue weight is because they are mostly towed at lower speeds. This graph shows tests done on an actual trailer whose weight distribution could be altered.


So the difference between European and North American tongue weights increases the speed at which sway starts by something like 10mph.

Lots of folk seem to think that a certain tongue weight percentage gives a stable trailer under all conditions - but all trailers have a speed at which they will start to sway. And tongue weight alone is not the whole answer - you also need to look at inertia, as this graph from the same study shows:



In this case, the second spot, at 2600 kg m^2 is the stock inertia of this European travel trailer. Put an extra weight on the back end and compensate it by moving some other weight forwards, to give the same tongue weight, and you can move your trailer's inertia to the right end of the graph and knock 10mph off the safe towing speed.
Interesting charts, were they derived through an experimental data? I assume that the trailer moment of inertia was calculated from the axial load (one axle) and distance to the hitch. 2 axles trailers could shift these 0 damping (I assume it means 0 damping required) curves toward higher speeds.
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Old 09-15-2010, 02:59 PM   #79
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Wheelbase can have an effect... But a Jeep has a shorter wheelbase then me Scion, so does that make the Jeep unsafe as a tow vehicle as well? Also, distance from the rear wheels to the hitch makes a big difference. A longer overhang makes it easier for the trailer to break ten rear wheel traction when sideways force is in play. My Scion's rear wheels are far back on the chassis... Another plus.
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Old 09-16-2010, 08:18 AM   #80
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In those graphs above, "zero damping speed" is the speed at which there is no damping on the trailer in response to a sharp tow vehicle steering input (a British Standard tets procedure) - in effect it is the speed at which uncontrollable snaking will start unless the drvier can damp it out by steering inputs.

The graphs are the result of towing a specially-made test trailer:

and the trailer inertia was measured using a turntable:

so these are real world results.

If anyone wants a copy of the research paper that gives the results, please send me your email address, either by private message or to:
angib (at) blueyonder (dot) co (dot) uk

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Much bigger, heavier, longer wheel based, vehicles than today's sedans.
Have you checked the actual numbers? Longer than today's sedans may well be true but look at the weights - good crash performance has made modern vehicles about as heavy as bigger old ones. For example: 1970 Impala 3800 pounds, 2010 Impala 3550 pounds.

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Wheelbase can have an effect... Also, distance from the rear wheels to the hitch makes a big difference.
I agree - I think there is some magic formula which uses the ratio of the rear overhang to wheelbase.
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