Wanna tow Scamp 16' with Subaru Forester

[Carol H]

Originally Posted by mcbrew

Carol, the current 4 cylinder Outback and Forester do have the same size engine in the US market -- 2.5 liter.

Jessie that is correct but only the 2011 and newer.

[Carol H]

Originally Posted by melissab

Is it possible to modify a US Outback to bring the tow rating up?

Melissa

Nope the tow cap on the Outback depends what model you have the rating is 2700lbs or 3000lbs. WD hitches are not to be used on them either.

Edit to add that I am sure someone here will come up with a creative way of modifying it but if you are wishing to keep your warranty in place the answer is Nope. :-)

[mcbrew]

Originally Posted by melissab

Is it possible to modify a US Outback to bring the tow rating up?

Melissa

Melissa, this is a touchy topic around here, but I will say that my Curt hitch is rated to 350/3,500. The Euro hitches mount completely differently than US hitches. They mount where the bumper mounts instead of bolting to the rear "frame". If I were going to tow more than the US rating, I would certainly want a Euro hitch. In Europe, the Outback has a leveling rear suspension. Apparently, it cannot handle quite as much tongue weight as the US rear suspension. So we actually have an advantage there, albeit a slight one.

Carrying more than the US weight rating should probably be limited to relatively short trips, and you should be wary of mountainous terrain and extremely hot weather. Personally, I don't have a problem with people following the European ratings, so long as you understand the limits and do it safely and sensibly.

[Carol H]

Melissa, what Jessie unfortunately forgot to add was a disclaimer that most if not all euro type hitches are not legal in NA. So you would not want to be in an accident with one on your tow vehicle anymore than you would want to be in an accident while towing a trailer that is over the towing cap of your vehicle. After the legal system is through with you I suspect you could have bought several dozen or more new tow vehicles that were able to tow your trailer within their capacity.

[Mike Magee]

Originally Posted by DavArl

Jason & Everyone,

I have been following all your comments closely. Just haven't posted lately. I find Jason's observations most encouraging when considering towing a 16' with my 2010 Forrester.

My wife and I just visited the big RV show in RoseMont IL yesterday. We also went to the Boat and RV show in Chicago a couple of weeks ago. All the 16' to 19' RVs dry weight were all a minumum of 2200lbs to 3400lbs. Without a doubt the fiberglass seems to be the only viable option for us. My wife and I just don't believe the 13' options will be big enough for us so we're sticking to the 16' option...

Not only is the Scamp a bit lighter, it is more aerodynamic. That is IMO more important than the weight. A Scamp sits lower and has rounded edges, so it will move through the air much more easily than a square trailer. It will be much, much better for your Subaru than a stick trailer.

Even though front baths feel more roomy to me than side baths, I can see the wisdom of the side bath for the lighter tongue weight.

[mcbrew]

Originally Posted by Carol H

Melissa, what Jessie unfortunately forgot to add was a disclaimer that most if not all euro type hitches are not legal in NA. So you would not want to be in an accident with one on your tow vehicle anymore than you would want to be in an accident while towing a trailer that is over the towing cap of your vehicle. After the legal system is through with you I suspect you could have bought several dozen or more new tow vehicles that were able to tow your trailer within their capacity.

Carol,

I understand and appreciate what you are saying. However, I do feel that there is a bit of FUD in the overtones. To have a problem, there has to first be an accident. Even so, I don't remember ever hearing about a case where the origins of the trailer hitch came into question. Most auto accident cases are battled out between insurance companies, and they rarely care what condition the cars are in. This is from my own experience. I would be interested to hear information about cases where these things were brought up in court.

Not that it matters much, but the name is Jesse. No "i" in there, as that would be short for Jessica. I am a fellow, not a lass.

[melissab]

Any ideas as to why Euro hitches are illegal in NA? Are they considered inferior over here or something? That's a little disconcerting for our friends across the pond.

Melissa

[Carol H]

Originally Posted by melissab

Any ideas as to why Euro hitches are illegal in NA? Are they considered inferior over here or something? That's a little disconcerting for our friends across the pond.

Melissa

They have a different system for attachment to the car & the cars across the pound are actually built to take those types of hitches. No need to worry as they are also inspected and approved based on their car designs.

[Carol H]

Jesse I am sorry about the error in name but not for what you have read into my tone. Joking aside, it is IMHO very irresponsible for people to suggest to other people that they do something when they know its not legal in the county they live & don't disclose it. In this case not only are you suggesting the use of an illegal hitch but you are encouraging the original poster to tow a trailer that is not only going to be well over the vehicles tow cap but based on the plan they are wanting its a really good bet it will be well over the tongue limit as well, and last but not least its going to be towed by vehicle that is going to really struggle power wise with the trailer he is wanting. They have a 2010 Forester - which does not have the same engine as the Outback. None of which IMHO equals safe towing practices no matter how you want to spin it.

SPEED will have a big impact on a vehicles ability to safely stop with a trailer in tow - the speeds they tow at in Europe are not as fast as they are in NA which is in part (some might argue a *big* part) of why the difference in tow ratings, not just the difference in the vehicles construction. No matter what hitch you put on the vehicle its not going to change that fact.

You may want to sit down and talk to accident investigator as to what they will and will not look at in the event you have accident while towing a trailer and you seriously hurt or kill someone. I personally have no doubt that they will start with the basics: your tow cap, your trailer weight and your hitching set up. If your found at fault I also have no doubt that the courts will not look favorable on you if its found that not only did you know the trailer was over weight but you went so far as to put an illegal hitch on it in order to tow with it anyways.

As I said that just MHO & I would suggest you obtain your own legal advise on it.

[Mike Magee]

Um... the autobahn is in Europe, right? (goes to "the speeds they tow at in Europe")

[Carol H]

Originally Posted by Mike Magee

Um... the autobahn is in Europe, right? (goes to "the speeds they tow at in Europe")

Yup the Autobahn is in Europe but if your towing you are only allowed to do 80 km/h which translates to 50 mph on the autobahn - in fact you can go as slow as 60 km/h (36 mph) without fear of fines.

[SilverGhost]

Originally Posted by melissab

Any ideas as to why Euro hitches are illegal in NA? Are they considered inferior over here or something? That's a little disconcerting for our friends across the pond.

Melissa

Not illegal because of the hitch, but because of what they replace. The US mandated 5mph bumper is removed on most cars to install the euro hitch. Considering how well that thing works in most cars at reducing impact damage, I's say its no loss. But that is IMO.

Jason

[Raz]

Originally Posted by mcbrew

Carol, the current 4 cylinder Outback and Forester do have the same size engine in the US market -- 2.5 liter.

The odd thing is that in Europe, the Forester gets a smaller engine (2.0) but is rated to tow MORE than the 2.5 liter Outback. But here in the US, they give the Forester a bigger engine and downgrade it's tow rating lower than the Outback. Go figure.

For what it's worth the Forester and the Outback engines are no longer the same. The Outback has the old EJ engine while the Forester has the next generation FB engine. The major difference is a timing chain instead of a belt, separate cooling for the block and the head (I read to deal with the head gasket issues ) and a little more torque.

[DavArl]

Just to clarify, my 2010 Forrester is a 2.5l engine with 170hp and weighs just over 3300lbs.

2010 Forrester ratings:

6600lbs total rated carrying weight. This is TV and trailer combined
2400lbs trailer
200lbs tongue

With these specs, if I get a 16' FG RV under 2000lbs, I can load an additional 1300lbs + 3300lbs + 2000lbs = 6600lbs so long as I watch tongue weight, axle ratings and 2400lbs trailer limit. Based on Norm and Ginny's real world experience towing 2400lbs with tongue weight of 200lbs with a 2004 Honda CRV I'm comfortable.

Curious to hear how many of you out there think this is reasonable????

By the way, I realize that 1300ibs includes me/wife, water, battery, propane, etc.

Thanks for the spirited discussion!

[mcbrew]

Originally Posted by Carol H

Jesse I am sorry about the error in name but not for what you have read into my tone. Joking aside, it is IMHO very irresponsible for people to suggest to other people that they do something when they know its not legal in the county they live & don't disclose it. In this case not only are you suggesting the use of an illegal hitch but you are encouraging the original poster to tow a trailer that is not only going to be well over the vehicles tow cap but based on the plan they are wanting its a really good bet it will be well over the tongue limit as well, and last but not least its going to be towed by vehicle that is going to really struggle power wise with the trailer he is wanting. They have a 2010 Forester - which does not have the same engine as the Outback. None of which IMHO equals safe towing practices no matter how you want to spin it.

SPEED will have a big impact on a vehicles ability to safely stop with a trailer in tow - the speeds they tow at in Europe are not as fast as they are in NA which is in part (some might argue a *big* part) of why the difference in tow ratings, not just the difference in the vehicles construction. No matter what hitch you put on the vehicle its not going to change that fact.

You may want to sit down and talk to accident investigator as to what they will and will not look at in the event you have accident while towing a trailer and you seriously hurt or kill someone. I personally have no doubt that they will start with the basics: your tow cap, your trailer weight and your hitching set up. If your found at fault I also have no doubt that the courts will not look favorable on you if its found that not only did you know the trailer was over weight but you went so far as to put an illegal hitch on it in order to tow with it anyways.

As I said that just MHO & I would suggest you obtain your own legal advise on it.

I am not suggesting that someone do something illegal or unsafe. Just pointing our that the US ratings probably have a pretty big safety factor. Yes, people in Europe don't usually tow as far from home and generally drive slower than we do when towing. From spending time in Europe, I will even say that most of them drive a lot smarter than we do.

I am not interested in talking to an accident investigator. I have dealt with the US legal system enough to know that they don't need hard evidence to pin something on you. I also know that I practice safe towing. I have towed campers since I was 16 and have had zero safety issues. I know what I am comfortable with and what I am not. Some things are legal and still unsafe. For instance, there is no law regarding tongue weight. In many states, there are no laws regulating what you can and can't tow with a given vehicle. I am well within US specs for towing with my current TV, and also in compliance with the law.

[Denece]

IMHO buying too much trailer is asking for trouble. Its not the going uphill, with the engine straining, It's the downhill with the trailer pushing you, trying to race you to the bottom. Yes, you'll have brakes, at least at the top of the hill. But have you ever seen those "runaway truck" exits? Trust me, you do not want to have to use one.
Match your tug and your tow. You'll be happier in the long run.

[cpaharley2008]

Plus the fact that if there were any future issues involving legalities, the internet is forever and these posts will come back to say "you were told/informed not to....." or whatever. The mere fact that someone participated in a discussion could be basis for being informed. It seems that recent court decisions have no logical reasons.

[Raz]

I guess I tend to be conservative. For a 16 ft. camper, or even a 13 ft. camper with a bathroom and the extra weight it brings, I would want a more substantial tow vehicle. Raz

Let me add that the Forester is on our short list for next tow vehicle.

[Carol H]

Originally Posted by SilverGhost

Not illegal because of the hitch, but because of what they replace. The US mandated 5mph bumper is removed on most cars to install the euro hitch. Considering how well that thing works in most cars at reducing impact damage, I's say its no loss. But that is IMO.

Jason

Actually Jason from what I have seen and read some of the Euro hitches are also missing connection points for chains - in that situation the hitch itself is also not legal.

[SilverGhost]

Originally Posted by Carol H

Actually Jason from what I have seen and read some of the Euro hitches are also missing connection points for chains - in that situation the hitch itself is also not legal.

They come in several flavors. There is the receiver type (swan neck for it's resemblance to the bird), the bolt on ball mount (not really meant to be changed very often), and the permanent ball hitch. Most often the chain hooks are not obvious, but are there. Or on the cheaper ones it is part of the kit that someone left off.

Can you see the chain hooks on this model?

Jason