Watch speed "tables" not bumps

[Carol H]

Originally Posted by Bob Miller

But, as I said, it was just a thought as to a possible contributing cause, especially when there are two full size adults in the front bed and additional stabilizers are not used in the front.

I have never seen a Scamp with a front double bed? Which model is that?

I also have the swing up jack and have never had any issues with it. Its never fallen down, well I should correct that - it did once but that was due to my not having put the securing pin in all the way.

On the couple of frame cracked frames I have seen on Scamps they have either been where the tongue beam is welded and overlapped by the main beam - just at the point it all goes under the trailer - the welds give up with time or a couple of feet further under the trailer at the point the frame bends. Going on 24 years for my Scamp and no signs of either areas being a problem though.

I can not help but wonder in the case of the OP if one of the reasons they had a complete hitch failure was not only due to having hit the speed table to fast but also due to vehicle they are towing with, which if I am not mistake is not rated to tow a trailer as heavy as a 16' Scamp - 2500lbs and often way more. Its possible the hitch attachment points were already starting to rip out as they were not designed for that amount of weight - we have seen that happen before with a VW Jetta.

[Bob Miller]

Ya caught me Carol. We have spend so many nights in the front bed Hunter that I had a memory slip from our Scamp and Lil Bigfoot bed locations. However, the Lil Bigfoot had a side mount jack that wasn't exactly stable, so we always used a set of front stabilizers.


Good point on the possible issue of towing over manufacturers specification. All three production years (2005-2007) of the Freestyle appear to be rated at 2000 lbs. "When properly equipped".

[melissab]

Not only would I send the city the bill for the repair but I'd also inform them had the TV not been repairable they would have been buying me a new one!!! In today's world of litigation that might just get their attention. Also I'd notify the local news media of this hazzard so they can warn drivers. We have speed tables here in the dumbest places where a traditional speed hump/bump would suffice without risking damage. I just did a quick Google search and it looks like cities can be liable for damage so you might have a case to get reimbursed.

[Bob Miller]

You would have to go back and duplicate the situation, at the posted speed, and prove that it was a problem not attributable to the specific vehicle, and answer questions like: "Was the vehicle travelling at or below the posted speed limit", "Was the tongue jack fully retracted", "Was the ball height correct for the trailer" and, "Does the jack and/or trailer manufactured recommend removing the jacks foot when under way". And, from a liability standpoint, "Was the vehicle rated for towing the load of the trailer".


About all the consumer might have as a counter is if the speed bump/table was not constructed to specifications and or posted correctly.

[redbarron55]

The VW Jetta had an aftermarket hitch that was not installed in the VW approved manner and the flexing broke the sheetmetal. This is the problem with using a US manufactured hitch instead of a type certified hitch from Europe.
Not a VW problem, a cheap inferior hitch problem.

Sent from my SCH-I605 using Fiberglass RV mobile app

[floyd]

Originally Posted by redbarron55

The VW Jetta had an aftermarket hitch that was not installed in the VW approved manner and the flexing broke the sheetmetal. This is the problem with using a US manufactured hitch instead of a type certified hitch from Europe.
Not a VW problem, a cheap inferior hitch problem.

Sent from my SCH-I605 using Fiberglass RV mobile app

It is not my intent to sound harsh, I think VW makes generally well engineered cars but...
Sounds like it was the "superior" VW sheet metal which broke. I have used what you refer to as "cheap inferior"U.S. made hitches on my Fords without their approval for 5 decades without a single failure.
Somehow since U.S. made and engineered hitches work great on virtually every application except (possibly) Volkswagen that the fault lies with the hitch manufacturers? The logic kinda escapes me.
It sounds like extra effort is required to design for a weaker car, or the hitch was overloaded. Don't you think they consult manufacturers specs when building aftermarket hitches? Almost every hitch I've installed was mounted to OEM mounting points without modification.

[redbarron55]

You misunderstand the mounting designed by VW for the trailer hitch.
The aftermarket hitches in the US do not transfer the loads as designed by VW in the least. This is what the approved hitch looks like.


Please notice the long heavy steel bars on either side. These slide into the two pockest that form the main carry though on either side of the trunk. While this is made of sheet metal like all unibody cars it is pretty heavy and the mounting points are separated by a good distance.
A huge difference in this.



and this.



Compared to this.







This is why in Europe ONLY the factory approved mounting points can be used and only a type accepted hitch can be used. If you are going to tow with a VW use ONLY a type certified hitch which is more expensive, but WILL meet the factory specifications and withstand 2 million cycles with no detectable distortions.

If you feel you must warn everyone about towing with a VW please make sure you are warning them about using inferior mounting style US hitches and not the proper Euro hitch.

Without a doubt the methods used by the hitch manufacturer you reference are faulty, but the steel used by VW is not. I would post pictures you used, but my searches did not find them.

Any piece of metal that flexes l eventually fail. It is called a fatigue fracture. No load of any consequence should be bolted to thin unreinforced sheetmetal. Any hitch attached in such a manner will fail with similar loading, not just VW.
The owners manual clearly shows the proper mounting locations even though they do not suggest towing or have low limits in this country. This is close to the strongest part of the car as it should be.

[floyd]

Originally Posted by redbarron55

You misunderstand the mounting designed by VW for the trailer hitch.

I understand and did when I commented.
We raced water cooled VWs for 15 years. everything about their designs was either brilliant or stupid.

[redbarron55]

Originally Posted by floyd

I understand and did when I commented.
We raced water cooled VWs for 15 years. everything about their designs was either brilliant or stupid.

I have to agree. I raced Alfas and this is even more true.
However this is not one of the stupid things. The proper hitch mounting is pretty good as is the proper hitch.

The US made hitches I have seen do not make the cut unless you just want to mount a bike carrier.

If you are going to tow anything of any consequence then mounting as VW specified is required and a certified hitch is a good idea as well.

[floyd]

Originally Posted by redbarron55

I have to agree. I raced Alfas and this is even more true.
However this is not one of the stupid things. The proper hitch mounting is pretty good as is the proper hitch.

The US made hitched I have seen do not make the cut unless you just want to mount a bike carrier.

If you are going to tow anything of any consequence then mounting as VW specified is required and a certified hitch is a good idea as well.

My point is that the non-conventional design of the car requires the non-conventional hitch design which may necessitate the use of the VW hitch, which really means that culpability works both ways.

The hitches available for my Mustang are a joke for anything other than a bicycle (better be a roadbike).
If I buy one it will certainly be only as a starting point for a secure hitch.

[Bob Miller]

Yep, one would think that VWofA would make a U.S. market suitable hitch available rather than just leave their buyers open to whatever the after-market offers.

[Carol H]

Originally Posted by redbarron55

If you are going to tow anything of any consequence then mounting as VW specified is required and a certified hitch is a good idea as well.

The same can be said if towing with a NA made car and using the factory mounting points but then deciding to tow something heavier than what the cars hitch mounting points was designed/spec'd to carry. Hard to say but its not outside the realm of possibilities that the complete failure of the OP's hitch was the result of excessive weight on the hitch/cars mounting points.

Even if not towing something heavier than what the vehicle is spec'd to tow its always a good idea to at least once a year take a close look at how the hitch attachment points are standing up to the test of time.

[Carol H]

Originally Posted by Bob Miller

Yep, one would think that VWofA would make a U.S. market suitable hitch available rather than just leave their buyers open to whatever the after-market offers.

I suspect they believe that if the owners of their vehicles follow their NA vehicle towing spec there is no problem with using the US hitch..... its when owners decide to tow over and above the towing spec set for their vehicles that problems of hitch failure become an issue.

[redbarron55]

My only point is if you want to tow to the rated load then the car and hitch need to be complementary. The Euro design specs call for all parts to be designed and tested to meet their standard. There is no standard required by the US so there are many different designs. Not that any particular one is deficient for us made cars, but when ratings are based on total complementary systems then the entire system must be used.
As a fair to middlin' engineer I can recognize poorly coupled loads and poorly designed systems. Most of the mounts for US made trailer hitches are deficient. Torqlift are closer, but fail to couple into the frame rail, using only one of the mounting points on each side and the bumper mounting holes into relatively thin sheet structure. Better than the Draw-Tite and Curtis etc, but still not right.
Before one casts stones at a design one needs to consider how it is meant to be used and connected.
The Euro system works well and has been tested to do so to a much greater extent than what passes for a system in the US.
Why VWoA does not rate its passenger cars like they do in Europe, but evidently you can't trust then anyway!
The obNOXious TDI will, however, tow quite well and with the proper hitch (not made in the US) do it with strength and safety.
I know lots of people disagree, but then they probably have not tried it for themselves and speak out of a lack of actual knowledge and experience.
The car was designed to meet it's ratings and the available hitched made by manufacturers who have had their hitches approved fit and work and meet those ratings. They just don't sell them here, but they can be imported with little trouble, just need $$.

[Borrego Dave]

Sad how Bat Dudes story of a bad incident with a speed bump has gone sideways to a VW's proper hitch. His tug is a Ford Freestyle, not a VW. I can only believe that he was within his specs. Glad he was able to get both repaired so quickly. I think most us have had something bad happen to us on the road at some point.
With all the tech/spec info that gets thrown out here, does anyone think they do any tests for basically a dead stop of the trailer and not the tug? No, things bend and break, just cuz. Accidents happen, some points get way over stressed for an instant....pop. Kind of wonder if the tug would have been a VW with the Euro hitch, everything else being the same what the out would have been.

[Glenn Baglo]

And, who thinks the engineering department in that jurisdiction didn't spend a couple years reviewing studies of types of speed bumps before they installed them? And, then put the proper signage in place after a six-month review by the legal department?
Those public servants have a job to protect - their own.

And, then there is this admission, "No on board GPS as such, but we used an 8" tablet linked with our Verizon Hot Spot and Google map navigation directions. As we made a right turn onto a street nearby the final destination we were traveling about 20-25 MPH as we scanned the side streets on the right.

Not watching where we were going. I don't think I'd attempt a lawsuit.

I don't think Batdude was trying to lay the blame elsewhere.

[Borrego Dave]

Originally Posted by Glenn Baglo

And, then there is this admission, "No on board GPS as such, but we used an 8" tablet linked with our Verizon Hot Spot and Google map navigation directions. As we made a right turn onto a street nearby the final destination we were traveling about 20-25 MPH as we scanned the side streets on the right.
Not watching where we were going. I don't think I'd attempt a lawsuit.
I don't think Batdude was trying to lay the blame elsewhere.

That's funny Glenn, I'm still trying to figure out why my Garmin wants to send me in the opposite direction from my known to me destination. Only two ways in to where I want to go....it's route wants to take me 30 miles longer and not any different for the road conditions. Not sure if you're saying any GPS should show speed bumps though. That would be to much info.
For sure Bat Dude was just posting a two sided post, one as a whoops story and one as a "don't do this" to the rest of us. He never mentioned any lawsuit but others did. I'm glad he posted this incident as we could all post something we have done....and worse . After towing for 50 years I know I could...easily. Mistakes we've made could be a whole new post here if anybody wanted to admit to them .

[Glenn Baglo]

Nothing to do with GPS. All I can say, is never say that you looked in the rear view mirror or anywhere else, and that's when the accident occurred. That is an admission that you took your eyes off the road ahead.

[redbarron55]

Funny how these threads evolve.
I thin originally the speed bump and then the damage to the jack with cracking frames etc.
Personally I thnk I like the Ultimate jack, but I haven't lived with it yet.
If it interferes with the tailgate I can remove it It raises high enough to clear and if not the wheel has a clip to remove it.
I think the original point was to pay attention or thins you don't perhaps think of can get damaged as a cautionary tale.
It has been entertaining, however!
Isn't that one reason we are here?
That and learn a little bit.
Have fun an be careful.
Later today I am traveling over the Cherokee NC. to look at Eggs that are at the rally.
I haven't finished my Scamp project yet so I couldn't take mine, unfortunately.
If you are there and see one of those White VW Sportwagons with an Euro Hitch that will be me.
If you want to look at how it is mounted that would be great. I want to see all of the different Eggs as well.
Later...

[honda03842]

The only part of this thread that bothered me was the suggestion to sue. My first day as mayor I received a letter from a local lawyer threatening the community with suit.

He stated that his client on a rainy day had slipped walking on a public sidewalk on some wet, fallen leaves and hurt his ability to perform sexually. After a laugh I called the lawyer and said this was frivolous and told him the community and it's law firm would fight this at every level. The matter never went beyond that call. There was no negligence on the part of our community.

Even if the community was at fault in the 'table' case and I had survived it spending less than $200, I'd smile and forget it except to notify them of the potential problem.

When we towed a car behind our motorhome, we'd occasionally drag the car's hitch leaving gas stations and the like. Almost 100% of the people leaving that gas station never have a problem, I was the anomaly, I soon learned to leave gas stations on an angle to the dip at really slow speeds, eliminating the problem.

When you're different, and we are, these lessons send the message to be careful for changes to your driving environment. Not criticizing but a worthwhile lesson that extends beyond road conditions to weather, unusual traffic flows, excessive speed, rapid movements, ....