What "Small Car" can really tow a Scamp?

[mcbrew]

Originally Posted by Andy B

If you got the tow weight from the Ford-UK site, then why did your previous post say the Fiesta could tow 3366 pounds but the Ford-UK chart shows maximum Fiesta tow weight for any model of 1980 pounds?

Oops... that's what I get for trying to read a chart on my phone. I was wrong about the tow rating for the Ford Fiesta. It is indeed embarrasingly low.

[Andy B]

Thanks to the link provided by RiLex, the European tow capacity testing has been explained, at least to me. The European ratings have been used as a justification to tow more in the US than the US rated tow capacity by several posters in this thread and other threads. Look at the 5th and 6th paragraphs in the link below.

Towing Capacity Alfa Romeo,

If I am understanding the explaination correctly, the European tow capacity is the amount of trailer weight that can be started on a 12% grade by a tow vehicle.

There is also an 85% rule where the safe towing amount is listed as 85% of the unloaded weight of the tow vehicle or the manufacturer listed tow capacity whichever is less.

It is as simple as that, there is no extensive testing that checks stopping or handling ability or any other safety related things. The only thing that is tested is how much weight can be started on a 12% grade.

It should be noted that using the European 85% rule, if the car maker lists a lower tow capacity than 85%, the lower value should be followed, so even using the European standards in the US is not a reason to tow more than the US rated tow capacity.

[Francesca Knowles]

Originally Posted by Pam Garlow

Taken verbatim from the Scamp website is the following statement:

"Towable by Small Cars - Our small campers are very economical; especially important with today’s high fuel costs. All three size Scamps have been designed to be towed by small cars, SUVs, mini vans, and trucks. The aerodynamic design assures high fuel efficiency and most people can tow the Scamp with a vehicle they already own

It bothers me to read in this statement that a 'small car' can tow a Scamp. Are there really any 'small cars' out there that are actually rated to tow one?

Hi, Pam!

Do you live in Europe, or are you contemplating doing some towing over there?
Or are you asking about standards relevant to the United States?

Francesca

[mcbrew]

Originally Posted by Andy B

Thanks to the link provided by RiLex, the European tow capacity testing has been explained, at least to me. The European ratings have been used as a justification to tow more in the US than the US rated tow capacity by several posters in this thread and other threads. Look at the 5th and 6th paragraphs in the link below.

Towing Capacity Alfa Romeo,

If I am understanding the explaination correctly, the European tow capacity is the amount of trailer weight that can be started on a 12% grade by a tow vehicle.

There is also an 85% rule where the safe towing amount is listed as 85% of the unloaded weight of the tow vehicle or the manufacturer listed tow capacity whichever is less.

It is as simple as that, there is no extensive testing that checks stopping or handling ability or any other safety related things. The only thing that is tested is how much weight can be started on a 12% grade.

It should be noted that using the European 85% rule, if the car maker lists a lower tow capacity than 85%, the lower value should be followed, so even using the European standards in the US is not a reason to tow more than the US rated tow capacity.

Andy, this does not prove that manufacturers don't do their own testing. As I've said before, many manufacturers actually do some of their tow testing here in the US because of our range of climate and terrain. Just like a lot of manufacturers test cold weather driving in Norway.

I'm not sure how universal the 85% rule is, because a VW Golf would have to weight nearly 3,900 pounds to carry it's tow rating. Maybe it is different for different countries.

It is a fact, though, that many car companies do their own tow testing, whether the Euro govt.'s require it of them or not.

How dead is this horse? None of us are changing any minds here.

[mcbrew]

Originally Posted by Francesca Knowles

Hi, Pam!

Do you live in Europe, or are you contemplating doing some towing over there?
Or are you asking about standards relevant to the United States?

Francesca

Francesca, the whole problem is that we don't HAVE standards over here. Not yet. Just arbitrary numbers, for the most part.

[Francesca Knowles]

Originally Posted by mcbrew

Francesca, the whole problem is that we don't HAVE standards over here. Not yet. Just arbitrary numbers, for the most part.

Well, my insurance agent sure seems to think otherwise...
And if Safeco says that the owners manual numbers are the standard that, if exceeded, will VOID MY INSURANCE, that's all I need to hear.
This horse has been beaten to a bloody pulp many, many times and it's as irrelevant as it ever was- and yet- here we go again.
Idea!
How about we ask the moderator to merge all this "YURPEEN" stuff into one long, circular thread that NEVER ENDS, and then every time it comes up any one of us can simply say "I BANISH YOU TO YURP" and POOF!
Just like that, the off-topic, off-CONTINENT, and irrelevant "discussion" goes there!
And we can talk about the original question.

Francesca, North American and Stuck With it.

[mcbrew]

Originally Posted by Francesca Knowles

Well, my insurance agent sure seems to think otherwise...
And if Safeco says that the owners manual numbers are the standard that, if exceeded, will VOID MY INSURANCE, that's all I need to hear.
This horse has been beaten to a bloody pulp many, many times and it's as irrelevant as it ever was- and yet- here we go again.
Idea!
How about we ask the moderator to merge all this "YURPEEN" stuff into one long, circular thread that NEVER ENDS, and then every time it comes up any one of us can simply say "I BANISH YOU TO YURP" and POOF!
Just like that, the off-topic, off-CONTINENT, and irrelevant "discussion" goes there!
And we can talk about the original question.

Francesca, North American and Stuck With it.

Maybe I wasn't clear. We don't have TESTING standards for towing, yet. I don't know about a foreign country like Canada. They sometimes use the same numbers as evil Euro land, and sometimes use the same numbers as the great US of A.

[Francesca Knowles]

Originally Posted by mcbrew

Maybe I wasn't clear. We don't have TESTING standards for towing, yet. I don't know about a foreign country like Canada. They sometimes use the same numbers as evil Euro land, and sometimes use the same numbers as the great US of A.

I guess the point is....why bother about other countries' standards?
I've got enough to do keeping up with the rules right here.
And so do most of the folks that come to FGRV looking for answers.
Let's help THEM out, and leave the esoterica, whys, and wherefores to those that have nothing better to concern themselves with than complaining about "the system" that, for better or worse, we've made for ourselves.

Francesca

[Andy B]

Originally Posted by mcbrew

Andy, this does not prove that manufacturers don't do their own testing. As I've said before, many manufacturers actually do some of their tow testing here in the US because of our range of climate and terrain. Just like a lot of manufacturers test cold weather driving in Norway.

I'm not sure how universal the 85% rule is, because a VW Golf would have to weight nearly 3,900 pounds to carry it's tow rating. Maybe it is different for different countries.

It is a fact, though, that many car companies do their own tow testing, whether the Euro govt.'s require it of them or not.

How dead is this horse? None of us are changing any minds here.

The point is not if testing is done, but rather that a tow rating means something completely different in Europe than a tow rating means in the US.

In the US if your car has a 2000 pound tow rating, people expect to actually tow trailers that weigh up to 2000 pounds.

In Europe if your car has a 2000 pound tow rating, people do not expect to be able to tow that much weight. The 2000 pound rating only means that the car can start to pull a 2000 pound trailer up a 12% grade. The rating is only to compare the relative pulling power of different cars, it does not say that the car should actually be used to tow that much weight.

The problem comes when someone from the US looks at the European tow rating and then applies the US definition of tow rating to the European number.

[Andrew Gibbens]

Originally Posted by Andy B

In Europe if your car has a 2000 pound tow rating, people do not expect to be able to tow that much weight.

Nope. European manufacturers' tow ratings mean you legally tow up to that limit if your licence permits it. The only difference is that there may be other factors which suggest a lower limit.

Here in Britain, the 85% of curbweight rule is what novice tow-ers are recommended not to exceed. 100% is considered reasonable for experienced car drivers and to go above 100% will involve some drivers passing an additional test. The extreme is a Land Rover Defender (the 50-year old design) which is rated by its manufacturer to tow twice its own weight - though that is about the same ratio as for large US pickups.

It's worth pointing out to roads of Europe are not littered with wrecked trailers, despite our towing practices. But I would stress again that European ratings assume lower speeds and, I think, a more attentive driver - they are not ratings of 'what can be safely towed while one of the drivers' hand is holding a 40oz cup'.

[Andy B]

Originally Posted by Andrew Gibbens

Nope. European manufacturers' tow ratings mean you legally tow up to that limit if your licence permits it. The only difference is that there may be other factors which suggest a lower limit.

That seems to be different than what was stated previously.

Originally Posted by Lex M

The figures give the maximum tow mass allowed for cars. That 's it !
That does't not mean that European people buy trailers as heavy as the allowed tow capacity of the car.

I did not say what the legal limit was, only that people view the limits differently and have different expectations in Europe and the US. Are you saying that many people in Europe tow up to the limit? In the US we do not have a 85% or 100% rule that most people follow.

The rating has nothing to do with safety or how well the car can handle the load when braking or turning, it is only the maximum that the car can start to pull up a 12% grade.

Lets not forget that the reason for this discussion is because some people want to justify towing more than the US tow rating for their car and use the European tow ratings as justification for doing so.

[Andrew Gibbens]

Originally Posted by Andy B

The rating has nothing to do with safety or how well the car can handle the load when braking or turning, it is only the maximum that the car can start to pull up a 12% grade.

Nonsense - this is something you have invented by misreading a (non-official) web page.

Doing a hill start may be the most severe part of the European towing rating for some vehicles, but the rating is still, just like in the US, a statement by the manufacturer of what they consider the maximum it is safe to tow with the vehicle, under European conditions and towing practices.

It is the last part of that sentence that you should be focussing on, in your attempt to 'prove' that European tow ratings cannot be applied in the US - with which I broadly agree.

[Robin G]

Originally Posted by Francesca Knowles

I guess the point is....why bother about other countries' standards?
I've got enough to do keeping up with the rules right here.
And so do most of the folks that come to FGRV looking for answers.
Let's help THEM out, and leave the esoterica, whys, and wherefores to those that have nothing better to concern themselves with than complaining about "the system" that, for better or worse, we've made for ourselves.

Francesca

A voice of reason!

[Francesca Knowles]

Originally Posted by Pam Garlow

Taken verbatim from the Scamp website is the following statement:

"Towable by Small Cars - Our small campers are very economical; especially important with today’s high fuel costs. All three size Scamps have been designed to be towed by small cars, SUVs, mini vans, and trucks. The aerodynamic design assures high fuel efficiency and most people can tow the Scamp with a vehicle they already own

It bothers me to read in this statement that a 'small car' can tow a Scamp. Are there really any 'small cars' out there that are actually rated to tow one?

Hi, Pam

I'm glad you asked!
The answer is...
YES!
And some folks understood your question and very courteously gave some examples
Well, Christopher, Carol Marie, and Bill did, anyway. Just take a look at posts #3,4, and 6!

That's almost 4 % of the posts in this thread.

Stay tuned-there might be more...




Francesca

[Andy B]

Originally Posted by Andrew Gibbens

Nonsense - this is something you have invented by misreading a (non-official) web page.

Doing a hill start may be the most severe part of the European towing rating for some vehicles, but the rating is still, just like in the US, a statement by the manufacturer of what they consider the maximum it is safe to tow with the vehicle, under European conditions and towing practices.

It is the last part of that sentence that you should be focussing on, in your attempt to 'prove' that European tow ratings cannot be applied in the US - with which I broadly agree.

If it is nonsense, and it may be, then you must actually know exactly what is tested to determine the tow rating in Europe. Please let us know! The only clue to what testing is done that has been presented was from that non-offical web site.

[Ken C]

Do I see a thread lock in 3...2....1....

[Andy B]

Originally Posted by Francesca Knowles

Hi, Pam

I'm glad you asked!
The answer is...
YES!
And some folks understood your question and very courteously gave some examples
Well, Christopher, Carol Marie, and Bill did, anyway. Just take a look at posts #3,4, and 6!

That's almost 4 % of the posts in this thread.

Stay tuned-there might be more...




Francesca

In post #5, I suggested that she ask Scamp. The claim was that a small car could tow all 3 sizes of Scamps. The large size Scamp is a 5th wheel and no small car can tow a 5th wheel.

[honda03842]

Originally Posted by Andy B

In post #5, I suggested that she ask Scamp. The claim was that a small car could tow all 3 sizes of Scamps. The large size Scamp is a 5th wheel and no small car can tow a 5th wheel.

For the non-believers that a small car can tow a fifth wheel, 40 HP and appropriate gearing can do anything (LOL)

We once had a 1966 VW Bug. We moved into out first house; the house was on a hill. We returned the u-haul truck, picked up our 65 Mustang and it began to snow. Our new Mustang could not make it up the hill. The next day we bought a VW bug. It could climb a tree in first gear. Little did I know it could tow a fifth wheel.

YouTube - ‪VW beetle towing a camper‬‏

Norm

[honda03842]

With Humor,

I looked up the 1974 VW Beetle, 57HP and 2000 pounds. Makes my CRV look like a muscle car or even a F150. (LOL)



Norm

[Francesca Knowles]

Originally Posted by Andy B

In post #5, I suggested that she ask Scamp. The claim was that a small car could tow all 3 sizes of Scamps. The large size Scamp is a 5th wheel and no small car can tow a 5th wheel.

OOPS!
Sorry, Andy.
I missed mentioning your first post in the Those-Who-Addressed-The-O.P.'s-Question count.
Certainly good advice, and RELEVANT, too!
We're up to four now.
One more and we'll hit 5%!



Francesca