What "Small Car" can really tow a Scamp?

[GeorgeR]

Originally Posted by Scott H

None of the vehicles in question are meant to tow. My buddy tows his mastercraft ski boat/dual axel trailer with a big ass Dodge diesel truck; 26mpg, 25.5mpg while in tow. I'd make the switch myself if it weren't for that crappy Italian quality!

This gas mileage is really good, almost unbelievable. Regarding Dodge Quality; I certainly hope that Chrysler will not have the bad influence on Fiat as it did on Mercedes regarding quality.

George.

[AndyGee]

Originally Posted by Frederick L. Simson

Tow Ratings Finally Pass the Sniff Test - The Society of Automotive Engineers (SAE) - Automobile Magazine Apparently there IS a standard, called "The SAE's Surface Vehicle Recommended Practice J2807" that defines the tests a vehicle must pass at a claimed Tow Rating.

And here's a quote from the article "a standard was approved in April 2008 and scheduled for 2013 model year implementation."
This has been the point I was trying to make but not communicating effectively. A standard is needed this is a good article and informative and the standard appears to be reasonable if mostly truck oriented, but i still have a question will they have to test all vehicles or only those that have a stated tow rating thus leaving every car with a zero rating.
I also wonder if the current ridiculously low (IMO) tow rating of cars is a ploy to upsell to trucks and SUVs? Also if this standard test will only fuel this further by not rating cars it will only be a valid test if they rate all vehicles.

[Andy B]

Some people want to tow more than their small car rated tow capacity. They look for reasons to justify doing this and the most common reason given is that the European tow ratings are higher so the car must be capable. If the European rating was lower than the US rating, I would be willing to bet they would not use the European tow capacity when deciding how much to tow.

Maybe the US ratings are correct and the European tow ratings are inflated in order to sell cars.

There were 2 previous examples given of small car tow ratings in the UK, both seem to be inflated in my opinion and I would not want to be driving next to or in front of someone towing using these ratings.

The examples were:

In the United Kingdom, the 2.0 liter Impreza with manual transmission is rated to tow 3,520 pounds. It could tow the Scamp19 foot 5th wheel and the 13 foot Scamp at the same time and still carry 320 pounds of camping gear in the trailer. It has the tow capacity to tow two Scamp 16's at the same time.

The Ford Fiesta in the UK with 1.6 liter gasoline engine can tow up to 3,366 pounds. With this tow capacity it could tow the Scamp 19 foot 5th wheel and the 13 foot Scamp at the same time and still carry 166 pounds of camping gear in the trailer.

Do people really think that these UK ratings are safe? Most people would not attempt to tow 1 Scamp 16 with one of these little cars and the UK tow rating says that it can tow the weight of two Scamp 16's at the same time. Common sense tells me that these tow ratings are much to high for a little car.

[jen b]

Originally Posted by Scott H

So Jesse, I don't have a horse in this race; my tug is not ideal by any means, but.... A pick-up being wasteful and dangerous?! As stated before, my buddys gigantic Dodge gets 26mpg, and I'd bet that the over/under on it in any collision blows what ever you're driving out of the water!

Yeah, that's part of what "unsafe" means - the tendency to kill the people in the cars that one crashes into. We have a real collective action problem on american roads with jumbo sized personal vehicles.

Which is not to say that I don't think trucks have a place - I would certainly not have wanted to haul horses behind a car like my Forester.

[mcbrew]

Originally Posted by Andy B

If the European rating was lower than the US rating, I would be willing to bet they would not use the European tow capacity when deciding how much to tow.

I would certainly want to know why the ratings were different. Since the European ratings are based on ACTUAL TESTING, they are the ones I trust. Call me crazy.

Originally Posted by Andy B

Do people really think that these UK ratings are safe? Most people would not attempt to tow 1 Scamp 16 with one of these little cars and the UK tow rating says that it can tow the weight of two Scamp 16's at the same time. Common sense tells me that these tow ratings are much to high for a little car.

Have you been to Europe to see what they tow? I have seen VW Golfs towing 20+ foot caravans. I have seen Fiats, Renaults, Volvos, Mercedes, Toyotas, Hondas, etc. pulling trailers over there. Overall, they tend to drive a little more sensibly than we do... especially with a trailer in tow.

I don't think the manufacturers of those vehicles would attach such a rating if they felt that it was unsafe. Do you?

[honda03842]

Originally Posted by AndyGee

And here's a quote from the article "a standard was approved in April 2008 and scheduled for 2013 model year implementation."
This has been the point I was trying to make but not communicating effectively. A standard is needed this is a good article and informative and the standard appears to be reasonable if mostly truck oriented, but i still have a question will they have to test all vehicles or only those that have a stated tow rating thus leaving every car with a zero rating.
I also wonder if the current ridiculously low (IMO) tow rating of cars is a ploy to upsell to trucks and SUVs? Also if this standard test will only fuel this further by not rating cars it will only be a valid test if they rate all vehicles.

The Standard is interesting. One of the requirements is the Davis Dam Road. Do you think an 18 wheeler could pass this test?

Quoted from page 2 of the standard.

"To merit a particular TWR, a vehicle must be capable of maintaining a minimum cruising speed while climbing the grade at Davis Dam on state roads 68 and 163 in Arizona and Nevada. This 12-mile-long run originating in Bullhead City, Arizona, involves grades that vary between 3- and 7-percent with an average over 5-percent. During this test, the minimum acceptable ambient temperature is 100-degrees F. and AC systems must be operating on the maximum cold setting with no recirculation and the blower at the highest possible setting.


Singlerearwheel vehicles must be able to maintain an average of at least 40 mph on this grade. Dual rear wheel vehicles are required to maintain 35 mph or more here. Dual rear wheel vehicles with a GVWR over 13,000 pounds must maintain at least 30 mph."



Norm

[honda03842]

Originally Posted by Andy B

There were 2 previous examples given of small car tow ratings in the UK, both seem to be inflated in my opinion and I would not want to be driving next to or in front of someone towing using these ratings.

The examples were:

In the United Kingdom, the 2.0 liter Impreza with manual transmission is rated to tow 3,520 pounds. It could tow the Scamp19 foot 5th wheel and the 13 foot Scamp at the same time and still carry 320 pounds of camping gear in the trailer. It has the tow capacity to tow two Scamp 16's at the same time.

The Ford Fiesta in the UK with 1.6 liter gasoline engine can tow up to 3,366 pounds. With this tow capacity it could tow the Scamp 19 foot 5th wheel and the 13 foot Scamp at the same time and still carry 166 pounds of camping gear in the trailer.

Andy,

Perspective is important. Following your reasoning this also means a Ford F150 can tow 5 Scamp 16s.

As to accidents, 18 wheelers have their share and I'm sure they're rated for their loads. I still maintain that the driver is number one in the safety equation.

When I read any article about RV trailer accidents speed is often a factor along with loading.

On one of the other sites I belong to one of the primary issues was failure to lock the ball, again a driver issue that can quickly lead to failure at speed.

Double checking the ball lock is mandatory.

Norm

[Andy B]

Originally Posted by mcbrew

I don't think the manufacturers of those vehicles would attach such a rating if they felt that it was unsafe. Do you?

If the manufacturers are protected from being sued better than in the US then they may have ratings that would be unsafe under certain conditions if it helps them sell cars. Corporations operate by what makes a profit, I do not expect that any corporation has my best interest at heart.

Do you think it is safe for a little car like an Impreza or a Fiesta to tow the weight of two Scamp 16s? Would you feel safe towing that much weight down a hill on a curve in the rain?

[Lex M]

Originally Posted by Andy B

Maybe the US ratings are correct and the European tow ratings are inflated in order to sell cars.

Nonsense.

Originally Posted by Andy B

There were 2 previous examples given of small car tow ratings in the UK, both seem to be inflated in my opinion and I would not want to be driving next to or in front of someone towing using these ratings.

The examples were:

In the United Kingdom, the 2.0 liter Impreza with manual transmission is rated to tow 3,520 pounds. It could tow the Scamp19 foot 5th wheel and the 13 foot Scamp at the same time and still carry 320 pounds of camping gear in the trailer. It has the tow capacity to tow two Scamp 16's at the same time.

The Ford Fiesta in the UK with 1.6 liter gasoline engine can tow up to 3,366 pounds. With this tow capacity it could tow the Scamp 19 foot 5th wheel and the 13 foot Scamp at the same time and still carry 166 pounds of camping gear in the trailer.

Do people really think that these UK ratings are safe? Most people would not attempt to tow 1 Scamp 16 with one of these little cars and the UK tow rating says that it can tow the weight of two Scamp 16's at the same time. Common sense tells me that these tow ratings are much to high for a little car.

The figures give the maximum tow mass allowed for cars. That 's it !
That does't not mean that European people buy trailers as heavy as the allowed tow capacity of the car.
In most European countries the maximum speed is 80 km/hr (50 mls/hr).
We travelled for 5 months in North America. We were overtaken by almost all other rigs. Our experience: in NA almost all drivers are speeding, even the lorries. Not much, but they do!
In Europe there is a towing code (advice): let the loaden mass of the trailer not exceed 85% of the mass of the towcar.
(Dutch) website for trailers: TowCar.eu - All about TowCars and Towing Caravans

[Andy B]

Originally Posted by honda03842

Perspective is important. Following your reasoning this also means a Ford F150 can tow 5 Scamp 16s.
Norm

If that is the F150 tow rating then I would not feel safe towing 8,750 pounds with a F150 either. It is not a matter of reasoning, it is a weight rating. Sometimes people do not appreciate how heavy something really is unless it is put in perspective by comparing to something they are familiar with. I agree that perspective is important and the UK tow capacities that someone posted for the little cars are huge when you actually think about what that says a little car can tow (safely).

[Andy B]

Originally Posted by Lex M

Nonsense.


The figures give the maximum tow mass allowed for cars. That 's it !
That does't not mean that European people buy trailers as heavy as the allowed tow capacity of the car.
In most European countries the maximum speed is 80 km/hr (50 mls/hr).
We travelled for 5 months in North America. We were overtaken by almost all other rigs. Our experience: in NA almost all drivers are speeding, even the lorries. Not much, but they do!
In Europe there is a towing code (advice): let the loaden mass of the trailer not exceed 85% of the mass of the towcar.
(Dutch) website for trailers: TowCar.eu - All about TowCars and Towing Caravans

Interesting that you would say that the suggestion that the European tow rating for Ford Fiesta in the UK with 1.6 liter gasoline engine of up to 3,366 pounds is over rated is nonsense and then go on to say that people do not follow that rating and instead use 85% of the tow car weight.

I went to the link you provided and entered the Fiesta with the 1.6 engine and chose a 1250 kg generic caravan as the trailer. The result that I got was:

The towing capability for the Ford Fiesta MkVI - 1.6 TDCi
with a Caravan 1250 kg:

Your Caravan is 750 kg too heavy for this car!!!!

This seems to support the suggestion that those UK tow ratings are over rated because 1250 - 750 = 500 kg (1100 pounds). 1100 pounds tow capacity is a lot less than 3366 pounds. Maybe a maximum tow rating in Europe does not mean that the car can actually tow that much of a load safely?

If different European countries disagree on the max tow rating, why is it that the US ratings are wrong to use in the United States and the European ratings are right to use in the United States?

[Lex M]

Originally Posted by Andy B

the European tow rating for Ford Fiesta in the UK with 1.6 liter gasoline engine of up to 3,366 pounds

Which source states that the maximum tow mass is 1530 kg?
The only figure I find is 750 kg (1653 lb).
http://www.uktow.com/towing%20capacity.asp

[Andy B]

Originally Posted by Lex M

Which source states that the maximum tow mass is 1530 kg?
The only figure I find is 750 kg (1653 lb).
Towing Capacity Alfa Romeo,

I was responding to the claims in this thread in posts # 43 and #42 on pages 3 and 4. The claimed tow capacity seemed very high to me, you would have to ask the author for the source. Quoted below:

"FYI, Ford Fiesta in the UK also has super powers: With 1.6 liter gasoline engine it can tow up to 3,366 pounds (braked trailer)."

"Except in the magical United Kingdom, where the 2.0 liter Impreza with manual transmission is rated to tow 3,520 pounds!"

[mcbrew]

Originally Posted by Lex M

Which source states that the maximum tow mass is 1530 kg?
The only figure I find is 750 kg (1653 lb).
http://www.uktow.com/towing%20capacity.asp

That's my quote. I got the info from www.ford.co.uk. Some trim levels differ based on engine and transmission.

[Lex M]

Originally Posted by mcbrew

That's my quote. I got the info from www.ford.co.uk. Some trim levels differ based on engine and transmission.

FRom the Ford-UK brochure:

NB. These figures are not necessary equal to the ones on the car registration papers.

[mcbrew]

Originally Posted by Lex M

FRom the Ford-UK brochure:

NB. These figures are not necessary equal to the ones on the car registration papers.

Thanks... that's where I got the info. I would have referenced it in my last post, but I was posting from my phone.

[Andy B]

Originally Posted by mcbrew

Thanks... that's where I got the info. I would have referenced it in my last post, but I was posting from my phone.

If you got the tow weight from the Ford-UK site, then why did your previous post say the Fiesta could tow 3366 pounds but the Ford-UK chart shows maximum Fiesta tow weight for any model of 1980 pounds?

[Terry G]

Come on guys, let's not let this argument get too heated. There's a lot of information on the Internet but it's not all correct. From my perspective, if I see a Ford Fiesta towing anything bigger than a breadbox, I'm going to pull off to the side of the road and give it plenty of room to get by.

Here's an example of how we used to tow stuff. It's a Shorpy.com photo from 1956 of an old Dodge towing what has to be at least 4,000 or 5,000 pounds. How'd you like to look in the rear view and see that riding your bumper down a mountain road?

[Mary F]

Moderator's note: I've moved this topic from General Chat to Towing, because the answers to the OP's question are no longer general chat.

[AndyGee]

Originally Posted by Terry G

Come on guys, let's not let this argument get too heated. There's a lot of information on the Internet but it's not all correct. From my perspective, if I see a Ford Fiesta towing anything bigger than a breadbox, I'm going to pull off to the side of the road and give it plenty of room to get by.

Here's an example of how we used to tow stuff. It's a Shorpy.com photo from 1956 of an old Dodge towing what has to be at least 4,000 or 5,000 pounds. How'd you like to look in the rear view and see that riding your bumper down a mountain road?

Ha ha so true and thats probably using one of those bolt on bumper hitches. You know the ones that the brackets wrap around the bumper and bolt on.