what to tow a Snoozy or Eggcamper with? - Page 3 - Fiberglass RV


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Old 06-09-2011, 07:47 PM   #29
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The owners manual has more to do with maintaining your warranty than with legal issues.
I think it's both. And as Roger said, some smart lawyer can use the manufacturers information against you if you KNOWINGLY ignore the information. And please remember, ignorance is NOT a defense. YMMV
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Old 06-10-2011, 05:31 PM   #30
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I have three questions,

1. Has anyone ever had an accident towing a small fiberglass trailer with a small tow vehicle? If so what was the failure mode?


2. Has anyone ever had an accident towing a small fiberglass trailer with a big truck or large SUV? If so what was the failure mode?


3. Should we live in fear for what might be or do what we feel is correct?

Norm
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Old 06-10-2011, 09:01 PM   #31
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Norm, I wouldn't call being a conservative person when it comes to towing... fear. I prefer "prudent." I doubt there's ever been anyone arrested for drunk driving that didn't think they were sober enough to drive. So, by your analogy they drive under the last half of your number 3. "Feel" is very, very subjective. We constantly have newbies on this forum. I think it's important for all of us to remind these people that it's essential to pay attention to their tug's owner's manual when it comes to towing limits. I for one am not about to tell anyone that manual is wrong. YMMV
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Old 06-12-2011, 01:42 PM   #32
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We tow our Egg Camper with a Chrysler minivan and it does a fine job. Tow rating 3500#. Regarding how tall your husband is, give a close look at the Egg Camper because it has enough headroom for a person 6'4'' up to possibly 6'6". Jim Palmer, president of Egg Camper told me that he's 6'32" or 6'4" tall and, while inside ours with him, there appeared plenty of headroom for a taller person.
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Old 06-19-2011, 10:41 AM   #33
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If you are going to ignore the vehicle tow capacity then why not ignore the tire manufactures weight limits and tire speed ratings too. Lots of people do, but that does not mean it is safe (I do not recommend ignoring any ratings).

It is not just the person that ignores the ratings that is open to liability if there is an accident. If the one that caused the accident says they ignored the ratings because another person gave them advice that it was safe to do so, then the liability can extend to that other person as well. The lawyer suing will go after anyone remotely involved that has any money.
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Old 06-19-2011, 11:17 AM   #34
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If you are going to ignore the vehicle tow capacity then why not ignore the tire manufactures weight limits and tire speed ratings too. Lots of people do, but that does not mean it is safe (I do not recommend ignoring any ratings).

It is not just the person that ignores the ratings that is open to liability if there is an accident. If the one that caused the accident says they ignored the ratings because another person gave them advice that it was safe to do so, then the liability can extend to that other person as well. The lawyer suing will go after anyone remotely involved that has any money.
If the advisor held himself out as an expert, or received pay for the advice, I could see that happening. Otherwise... pretty unlikely.

I see a difference between ignoring tow capacity rating vs ignoring tire rating. In the former, people are seeing that the same vehicle is rated very differently in various countries, apparently in an arbitrary manner. Also, not all tow ratings are based on safety limitations; sometimes the limitations are mechanical (transmission longevity concerns, for example). In the latter, the tire's rating is uniform in all locales and is accepted at face value as a legitimate limit for safe operation.

I recommend ignoring any arbitrary rules in life. And I'm not worried about getting sued for saying so.
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Old 06-20-2011, 04:51 PM   #35
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If the advisor held himself out as an expert, or received pay for the advice, I could see that happening. Otherwise... pretty unlikely.

I see a difference between ignoring tow capacity rating vs ignoring tire rating. In the former, people are seeing that the same vehicle is rated very differently in various countries, apparently in an arbitrary manner. Also, not all tow ratings are based on safety limitations; sometimes the limitations are mechanical (transmission longevity concerns, for example). In the latter, the tire's rating is uniform in all locales and is accepted at face value as a legitimate limit for safe operation.

I recommend ignoring any arbitrary rules in life. And I'm not worried about getting sued for saying so.
Many people that view this site have little or no towing experience, someone without experience may think that those posting about exceeding limits are experts when they claim there is no difference between US and European cars.

Lots of people ignore tire or towing ratings and drive above 65 mph or tow more weight than the rating without having problems. They are taking the risk if they do that, however, it is entirely another story if they start recommending that others, who they do not even know, take the risk, and convince them by claiming that it is safe.

I do not believe that the towing limits are set "in various countries, apparently in an arbitrary manner".

Here is a link to a discussion of some differences in towing ability between US (2700 tow capacity) and European (4400 tow capacity) Subaru Outback that seem to be identical cars. Look at posts #9 and #12.
Towing 3000 lbs with the Outback - Subaru Outback - Subaru Outback Forums
Unless someone checked very carefully they would not notice the difference in shocks or 0.8" lower spring mounts and who knows what else that could make a big difference in an emergency situation. Post 12 also points out that European trailers have suspension differences as well.

I don't think anyone would decide against buying a car because the tow capacity was higher than they needed, but many would decide not to buy it if the tow capacity was lower than needed, so it does not make sense to me that a manufacturer would assign an arbitrary tow capacity. The higher the tow capacity, the more cars they will sell.
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Old 06-20-2011, 05:01 PM   #36
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I could not agree more Andy. That is why I did not buy a Subaru Outback. I loved the car and the CVT transmission, BUT, the 200 lb limitation on the 4 cyl as well as V-6 requirement for 3000 lbs plus no one could figure out how to install a brake controller at the dealer. This tells me, Subaru is not trying to capture the rv towing customer. I got no response from Subaru on this issue. So, I bought a vehicle with factory tow, 500 lb t/w and 5000 lbs capacity. I'm not as pleased as I would be driving a Subie but I'm safer in my Jeep.
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Old 06-20-2011, 08:18 PM   #37
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I think the only other time someone said "I'm safer in my Jeep" it was because their other car was a motorcycle!

Just kiddin with ya.
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Old 06-20-2011, 08:29 PM   #38
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http://www.topspeed.com/cars/jeep/20...-ar100223.html
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Old 06-20-2011, 08:41 PM   #39
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I don't think anyone would decide against buying a car because the tow capacity was higher than they needed, but many would decide not to buy it if the tow capacity was lower than needed, so it does not make sense to me that a manufacturer would assign an arbitrary tow capacity. The higher the tow capacity, the more cars they will sell.
Point WELL taken
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Old 06-20-2011, 09:37 PM   #40
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... it does not make sense to me that a manufacturer would assign an arbitrary tow capacity. The higher the tow capacity, the more cars they will sell.
Unless the car company also sells trucks and SUVs which are much more profitable. If you convince everyone that they need to upgrade to a more profitable vehicle so that they can tow, then you have succeeded in business.

As I have said before, the United States is a lawsuit-happy nation. Something I am not proud of. I do things in my business to protect myself from frivolous lawsuits. Car companies do the same.

As mentioned by others, there are also differences in the way we drive vs the way people drive in some other countries. I'm not saying every American is a bad drive and every European is a good driver, but I have to say that in MY experience, the average is not in out favor. It is more common for people towing trailers in Europe to slow down. In the US, people expect to be able to travel on the interstates at 80+ MPH with a camper in tow.

I am certainly not recommending that anyone do anything unsafe. My family and I are sharing these roads with all of you. I just want to spread information about alternatives and my own experiences.

I understand that many of you will simply never agree with me. That's fine. I may never agree with you. We'll just have to agree to disagree. I will probably only expand on this issue by private message, unless responding directly to something addressed to me.
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Old 06-20-2011, 09:37 PM   #41
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Originally Posted by Andy B View Post
Many people that view this site have little or no towing experience, someone without experience may think that those posting about exceeding limits are experts when they claim there is no difference between US and European cars.

Lots of people ignore tire or towing ratings and drive above 65 mph or tow more weight than the rating without having problems. They are taking the risk if they do that, however, it is entirely another story if they start recommending that others, who they do not even know, take the risk, and convince them by claiming that it is safe.

I do not believe that the towing limits are set "in various countries, apparently in an arbitrary manner".

Here is a link to a discussion of some differences in towing ability between US (2700 tow capacity) and European (4400 tow capacity) Subaru Outback that seem to be identical cars. Look at posts #9 and #12.
Towing 3000 lbs with the Outback - Subaru Outback - Subaru Outback Forums
Unless someone checked very carefully they would not notice the difference in shocks or 0.8" lower spring mounts and who knows what else that could make a big difference in an emergency situation. Post 12 also points out that European trailers have suspension differences as well.

I don't think anyone would decide against buying a car because the tow capacity was higher than they needed, but many would decide not to buy it if the tow capacity was lower than needed, so it does not make sense to me that a manufacturer would assign an arbitrary tow capacity. The higher the tow capacity, the more cars they will sell.
Absent a poster's actual claim of expert qualifications, no court will hold them to be an expert. Anyone who maintains in court that they relied on someone who sounded like an expert will be out of luck in that venue.

After reading the thread you referenced, I agree that one particular car with varying tow ratings has two minor suspension differences; the poster also stated that he knew of no other relevant differences.

Tire hop when braking is mentioned in the Subie thread as a possble consequence of not having trailer brakes. Rubbish. If my trailer tires hop when braking, I guarantee you I have set my brake controller incorrectly.

Manufacturers could certainly set tow capacities arbitrarily if their adversity to litigation outweighs the perceived benefit of increased sales (a benefit they probably do not fully realize).
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Old 06-21-2011, 04:01 PM   #42
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Manufacturers could certainly set tow capacities arbitrarily if their adversity to litigation outweighs the perceived benefit of increased sales (a benefit they probably do not fully realize).
If they are setting tow capacity based on the cost of litigation vs increased sales, that is calculated and not arbitrary at all.

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Originally Posted by mcbrew View Post
Unless the car company also sells trucks and SUVs which are much more profitable. If you convince everyone that they need to upgrade to a more profitable vehicle so that they can tow, then you have succeeded in business.

If the real reason for setting the tow rating lower in the US than in Europe is to steer people to a larger more profitable vehicle then, to use the Subaru example, they would be steering buyers from the Outback to the Tribeca which is the largest Subaru made. If that was the reason, then there should be no difference in the Tribeca tow capacity in the US and Europe since it is their largest vehicle. I will leave it to someone else to determine if the Tribeca tow capacities are different in the US and Europe or not.

The bottom line is that no one except for a few people at the companies that make the cars really knows the reason why the ratings are different. Even if you call them you will be talking with someone in marketing that does not have the facts. If someone does not know for sure, it is fine if they want to take a safety related risk personally, my objection is to promoting taking that risk to others which has been done in numerous posts and several topics on this board.
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