what to tow a Snoozy or Eggcamper with?

[BigLew]

Originally Posted by Ron F

Ditto for our Toyota Sienna... quiet, comfortable, accessible space.
I think all the hype over Toyota recalls was way out of proportion. I suspect that government owning GM may have had something to do with the tempest in a teapot.

On the disappointing down side, our Sienna XLE came with a tow package, which was nothing more than an engine oil cooler. There was no additional wiring for a brake controller/lights, and no transmission cooler. I added both. A note on the transmission cooler: after adding the transmission cooler, the fluid needed to be topped off. This had to be done at the dealer because the newer transmissions are sealed... no dipstick, no fill tube. It cost me another $99 to have about a pint of the special fluid added. Ouch! With that said, I wouldn't tow without the added cooling for the transmission.

And, in spite of this down side, I'd still go with a Toyota or Honda.

Ron

I couldn't have said it better! And yes.....I have a Honda Tech that is my friend and does it on the side.....so I'll have him do all the work. The best thing about it besides price is he's the best mechanic anyone could ever ask for.

[cpaharley2008]

Sometimes I think a good mechanic that is trustworthy is better to have than a good doctor or dentist!!

[BigLew]

Originally Posted by cpaharley2008

Sometimes I think a good mechanic that is trustworthy is better to have than a good doctor or dentist!!

Boy isn't that the truth!!!! I dread going somewhere no knowing what to expect.

BTW Jim.....I am sending you a PM.
tks Lew

[Ray N]

Originally Posted by Ron F

On the disappointing down side, our Sienna XLE came with a tow package, which was nothing more than an engine oil cooler. There was no additional wiring for a brake controller/lights, and no transmission cooler. I added both. A note on the transmission cooler: after adding the transmission cooler, the fluid needed to be topped off. This had to be done at the dealer because the newer transmissions are sealed... no dipstick, no fill tube. It cost me another $99 to have about a pint of the special fluid added. Ouch! With that said, I wouldn't tow without the added cooling for the transmission.
Ron

Wow, the $600 tow package on our Tundra came with class III tow hitch receiver, trailer brake controller prewire, special rear axle ratio, TOW/HAUL mode switch (basically different shift points), transmission fluid temperature gauge, supplemental transmission cooler, engine oil cooler, 7-pin and 4-pin connectors, and heavy-duty alternator and battery. Oh, and it has built-in sway control, which isn't part of the package, but standard on all Tundras.

[Ron F]

Originally Posted by Ray N

$600 tow package on our Tundra.

My 2010 4Runner had pretty much the same tow package as your Tundra. All I did was plug in the brake controller and hook up the EggCamper. Very nice. The Sienna works well with the EggCamper. I just wish they'd put a real tow package together for it. What was there was standard on the XLE, and the rest of the package probably came close to your $600 package. The difference was that I did the work. <_<

[Roger C H]

Somewhere in this thread it was stated:

"You can pretty much ignore most US towing specs for foreign cars. The manufacturer does testing and comes up with a rating. Ironically, a lot of the towing testing on euro and Japanese cars is done in the US! In most foreign markets, people want to tow within car, not a truck. In the US, trucks and SUVs are FAR more profitable, so they lower (or completely drop) the tow rating on cars."

You ignore your owner's manual at your peril. After the accident, the plaintiff's lawyer will ask you, "Can you show us the engineering degree that qualifies you to ignore the manufacturer's stated capacities of your vehicle?"

There are plenty of discussions in this blog about not towing over rated capacity. It is about legal results, not ability of the TV. It is also about the ability of the TV to handle the weight, not just get it moving. I have seen a trailer driving the TV. Not a pretty sight.

[honda03842]

Roger,

Weight perspective.

I've always wondered about the significance of the weight of the tow vehicle compared to the weight of the trailer.

Most trucks are rated to tow more than the truck's weight. Everyone seems to accept that fact as being OK.

My Honda, though lighter than a truck, weighs significantly more than my trailer.

Norm

[mcbrew]

Originally Posted by Roger C H

Somewhere in this thread it was stated:

"You can pretty much ignore most US towing specs for foreign cars. The manufacturer does testing and comes up with a rating. Ironically, a lot of the towing testing on euro and Japanese cars is done in the US! In most foreign markets, people want to tow within car, not a truck. In the US, trucks and SUVs are FAR more profitable, so they lower (or completely drop) the tow rating on cars."

You ignore your owner's manual at your peril. After the accident, the plaintiff's lawyer will ask you, "Can you show us the engineering degree that qualifies you to ignore the manufacturer's stated capacities of your vehicle?"

There are plenty of discussions in this blog about not towing over rated capacity. It is about legal results, not ability of the TV. It is also about the ability of the TV to handle the weight, not just get it moving. I have seen a trailer driving the TV. Not a pretty sight.

I understand the sentiment... But what happens in court rarely has anything to do with what happened in real life. Follow all of the towing laws in my state. They don't refer to the vehicle's owners manual at all. The owners manual has more to do with maintaining your warranty than with legal issues.

[Donna D.]

Originally Posted by mcbrew

The owners manual has more to do with maintaining your warranty than with legal issues.

I think it's both. And as Roger said, some smart lawyer can use the manufacturers information against you if you KNOWINGLY ignore the information. And please remember, ignorance is NOT a defense. YMMV

[honda03842]

I have three questions,

1. Has anyone ever had an accident towing a small fiberglass trailer with a small tow vehicle? If so what was the failure mode?


2. Has anyone ever had an accident towing a small fiberglass trailer with a big truck or large SUV? If so what was the failure mode?


3. Should we live in fear for what might be or do what we feel is correct?

Norm

[Donna D.]

Norm, I wouldn't call being a conservative person when it comes to towing... fear. I prefer "prudent." I doubt there's ever been anyone arrested for drunk driving that didn't think they were sober enough to drive. So, by your analogy they drive under the last half of your number 3. "Feel" is very, very subjective. We constantly have newbies on this forum. I think it's important for all of us to remind these people that it's essential to pay attention to their tug's owner's manual when it comes to towing limits. I for one am not about to tell anyone that manual is wrong. YMMV

[rgrugg]

We tow our Egg Camper with a Chrysler minivan and it does a fine job. Tow rating 3500#. Regarding how tall your husband is, give a close look at the Egg Camper because it has enough headroom for a person 6'4'' up to possibly 6'6". Jim Palmer, president of Egg Camper told me that he's 6'32" or 6'4" tall and, while inside ours with him, there appeared plenty of headroom for a taller person.

[Andy B]

If you are going to ignore the vehicle tow capacity then why not ignore the tire manufactures weight limits and tire speed ratings too. Lots of people do, but that does not mean it is safe (I do not recommend ignoring any ratings).

It is not just the person that ignores the ratings that is open to liability if there is an accident. If the one that caused the accident says they ignored the ratings because another person gave them advice that it was safe to do so, then the liability can extend to that other person as well. The lawyer suing will go after anyone remotely involved that has any money.

[Mike Magee]

Originally Posted by Andy B

If you are going to ignore the vehicle tow capacity then why not ignore the tire manufactures weight limits and tire speed ratings too. Lots of people do, but that does not mean it is safe (I do not recommend ignoring any ratings).

It is not just the person that ignores the ratings that is open to liability if there is an accident. If the one that caused the accident says they ignored the ratings because another person gave them advice that it was safe to do so, then the liability can extend to that other person as well. The lawyer suing will go after anyone remotely involved that has any money.

If the advisor held himself out as an expert, or received pay for the advice, I could see that happening. Otherwise... pretty unlikely.

I see a difference between ignoring tow capacity rating vs ignoring tire rating. In the former, people are seeing that the same vehicle is rated very differently in various countries, apparently in an arbitrary manner. Also, not all tow ratings are based on safety limitations; sometimes the limitations are mechanical (transmission longevity concerns, for example). In the latter, the tire's rating is uniform in all locales and is accepted at face value as a legitimate limit for safe operation.

I recommend ignoring any arbitrary rules in life. And I'm not worried about getting sued for saying so.

[Andy B]

Originally Posted by Mike Magee

If the advisor held himself out as an expert, or received pay for the advice, I could see that happening. Otherwise... pretty unlikely.

I see a difference between ignoring tow capacity rating vs ignoring tire rating. In the former, people are seeing that the same vehicle is rated very differently in various countries, apparently in an arbitrary manner. Also, not all tow ratings are based on safety limitations; sometimes the limitations are mechanical (transmission longevity concerns, for example). In the latter, the tire's rating is uniform in all locales and is accepted at face value as a legitimate limit for safe operation.

I recommend ignoring any arbitrary rules in life. And I'm not worried about getting sued for saying so.

Many people that view this site have little or no towing experience, someone without experience may think that those posting about exceeding limits are experts when they claim there is no difference between US and European cars.

Lots of people ignore tire or towing ratings and drive above 65 mph or tow more weight than the rating without having problems. They are taking the risk if they do that, however, it is entirely another story if they start recommending that others, who they do not even know, take the risk, and convince them by claiming that it is safe.

I do not believe that the towing limits are set "in various countries, apparently in an arbitrary manner".

Here is a link to a discussion of some differences in towing ability between US (2700 tow capacity) and European (4400 tow capacity) Subaru Outback that seem to be identical cars. Look at posts #9 and #12.
Towing 3000 lbs with the Outback - Subaru Outback - Subaru Outback Forums
Unless someone checked very carefully they would not notice the difference in shocks or 0.8" lower spring mounts and who knows what else that could make a big difference in an emergency situation. Post 12 also points out that European trailers have suspension differences as well.

I don't think anyone would decide against buying a car because the tow capacity was higher than they needed, but many would decide not to buy it if the tow capacity was lower than needed, so it does not make sense to me that a manufacturer would assign an arbitrary tow capacity. The higher the tow capacity, the more cars they will sell.

[cpaharley2008]

I could not agree more Andy. That is why I did not buy a Subaru Outback. I loved the car and the CVT transmission, BUT, the 200 lb limitation on the 4 cyl as well as V-6 requirement for 3000 lbs plus no one could figure out how to install a brake controller at the dealer. This tells me, Subaru is not trying to capture the rv towing customer. I got no response from Subaru on this issue. So, I bought a vehicle with factory tow, 500 lb t/w and 5000 lbs capacity. I'm not as pleased as I would be driving a Subie but I'm safer in my Jeep.

[mcbrew]

I think the only other time someone said "I'm safer in my Jeep" it was because their other car was a motorcycle!

Just kiddin with ya.

[cpaharley2008]

Jeep Liberty Jet-

http://www.topspeed.com/cars/jeep/20...-ar100223.html

[Donna D.]

Originally Posted by Andy B

I don't think anyone would decide against buying a car because the tow capacity was higher than they needed, but many would decide not to buy it if the tow capacity was lower than needed, so it does not make sense to me that a manufacturer would assign an arbitrary tow capacity. The higher the tow capacity, the more cars they will sell.

Point WELL taken

[mcbrew]

Originally Posted by Andy B

... it does not make sense to me that a manufacturer would assign an arbitrary tow capacity. The higher the tow capacity, the more cars they will sell.

Unless the car company also sells trucks and SUVs which are much more profitable. If you convince everyone that they need to upgrade to a more profitable vehicle so that they can tow, then you have succeeded in business.

As I have said before, the United States is a lawsuit-happy nation. Something I am not proud of. I do things in my business to protect myself from frivolous lawsuits. Car companies do the same.

As mentioned by others, there are also differences in the way we drive vs the way people drive in some other countries. I'm not saying every American is a bad drive and every European is a good driver, but I have to say that in MY experience, the average is not in out favor. It is more common for people towing trailers in Europe to slow down. In the US, people expect to be able to travel on the interstates at 80+ MPH with a camper in tow.

I am certainly not recommending that anyone do anything unsafe. My family and I are sharing these roads with all of you. I just want to spread information about alternatives and my own experiences.

I understand that many of you will simply never agree with me. That's fine. I may never agree with you. We'll just have to agree to disagree. I will probably only expand on this issue by private message, unless responding directly to something addressed to me.