Why Towing Capacity is "Higher" in Europe - Page 3 - Fiberglass RV


Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
 
Old 06-04-2014, 05:36 PM   #29
Senior Member
 
Bob Miller's Avatar
 
Name: Bob
Trailer: 1973 Hunter Compact II
California
Posts: 7,912
And your point???? Which one of the ones you listed do you want removed????

The injury and fatality rate per million miles driven in auto accidents has progressively gotten lower and lower each time one of those safety requirements was mandated. If the manufacturers had done so themselves, there would have been no need for legislation.

And pollution by vehicles is infinitesimal when compared to what is was in the 50's and, as most of us enjoy breathing, that's a good thing.

What the government has added has no effect on the ability of a buyer to buy a basic vehicle that is reasonably safe and produces minimal emissions.

Before "Unsafe at any Speed" the auto manufacturers really didn't give a rats patootie about safety.

BTW, I didn't know about a .5 mph bumper requirement.
__________________

__________________
Bob Miller is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-04-2014, 06:01 PM   #30
Senior Member
 
Name: None
Trailer: None
None
Posts: 2,730
Missed the point

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob Miller View Post
And your point???? Which one of the ones you listed do you want removed????

The injury and fatality rate per million miles driven in auto accidents has progressively gotten lower and lower each time one of those safety requirements was mandated. If the manufacturers had done so themselves, there would have been no need for legislation.

And pollution by vehicles is infinitesimal when compared to what is was in the 50's and, as most of us enjoy breathing, that's a good thing.

What the government has added has no effect on the ability of a buyer to buy a basic vehicle that is reasonably safe and produces minimal emissions.


Before "Unsafe at any Speed" the auto manufacturers really didn't give a rats patootie about safety.

BTW, I didn't know about a .5 mph bumper requirement.
Bob I am not questioning the role of Government in protecting the public nor the governments legitimate right to set reasonable safety / pollution standards .I was questioning Carol's post which questioned whether government regulations had any effect on what and how cars are produced or if they had an effect on the vehicles cost , Cost is a limiting factor in most peoples lives and if government regulations cause the cost of a product to rise to a point where that product is no longer affordable , peoples choices are then limited . Regulations often have unintended consequences ,Some good some bad
__________________

__________________
steve dunham is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-04-2014, 06:09 PM   #31
Senior Member
 
Bob Miller's Avatar
 
Name: Bob
Trailer: 1973 Hunter Compact II
California
Posts: 7,912
I was under the impression that the discussion was about the inability of some to buy a vehicle without unwanted options, not about basic prices and costs of mandated safety and emissions equipment.

Yes, vehicles do cost more today, but they are infinitely safer, more economical, and last substantially longer than in years gone by.

As an example, in the 60's a car with 100,000 miles on it was a junker. Today a car with that mileage is called low mileage. My 2003 GMC had 153,000 miles on it, didn't use a drop of oil, got 22 MPG and still have the original exhaust system on it. Yes, they cost more, but you can get so much more.
__________________
Bob Miller is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-04-2014, 06:33 PM   #32
Senior Member
 
Carol H's Avatar
 
Name: Carol
Trailer: 22' Airstream Formerly 16' Scamp
British Columbia
Posts: 11,731
Registry
Quote:
Originally Posted by steve dunham View Post
Air bags ,seat belts , CAFE standards , pollution standards , back up alarms,crash standards ,catalytic converters , collapsible steering wheels , padded dashboards .5 mph bumpers , head restraints ETC These are government standards (DOT) or equipment required to meet government (Safety standards or regulations ) Most came about over the objections of business and without any clamor from the general public . My father complained in the 60's about paying for and using seat belts . He thought they were unnecessary and dangerous. I believe that government regulations / rules often dictate or limit choices and add to the cost of a product ,for both good & bad
Yup you can blame many of the above items listed on the Government but mostly due to the fact they are simple attempting to save us from ourselves but those are not items you listed in your previous post quoted below which you suggested was the fault of the Government:

Quote:
Originally Posted by steve dunham View Post
A friend of mine went looking for a new truck > He wanted a bare bones truck --No A/C .crank windows , manual transmission ,radio only ,no tilt steering ,no cruise , 2 WD ,basically a box on wheels"
I don't think the government dictates to the auto industry what they should or should not offer the consumer in regards to the items you have listed, unless of course they are wanting to buy a bunch of new fleet trucks
Carol H is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-05-2014, 11:06 AM   #33
Member
 
Name: Tim
Trailer: Aliner folding & Weekend Warrior toy hauler
Ohio
Posts: 68
Quote:
Originally Posted by Francesca Knowles View Post
Why Towing Capacity is "Higher" in Europe
Less lawyers (barristers) to file lawsuits might be part of it. North America is a very litigious society.
__________________
Shopping for a fiberglass TT
Currently own;
2009 Pontiac Vibe pulling a 2009 Aliner Sport = 22 MPG
1998 Ford E150 pulling a 2006 Weekend Warrior toy hauler = 8 MPG
beemerphile1 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-05-2014, 11:31 AM   #34
Senior Member
 
Bob Miller's Avatar
 
Name: Bob
Trailer: 1973 Hunter Compact II
California
Posts: 7,912
Quote:
Originally Posted by beemerphile1 View Post
Less lawyers (barristers) to file lawsuits might be part of it. North America is a very litigious society.
It might also be that they have higher requirements to get and keep a drivers license, more restrictions on towing weight and speed, that are enforced, and fewer cowboys that do "What ever they want", aka charter members of the apparently now defunct "You tow This with That" club.
__________________
Bob Miller is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-05-2014, 03:49 PM   #35
Senior Member
 
Trailer:
Posts: 787
I think there's some chicken and some egg in this discussion.

European towers use a much lower hitch weight percentage (say 4-7%) than North Americans, because that's all our tow vehicles can withstand, so that low hitch weight gives a lower speed when sway starts, and trailers have to be towed slower.

What I find interesting is that the maximum hitch weight on both continents is often the same - at 4% on the hitch, Europeans can tow a trailer of much heavier total weight than a North American at 10%.

So maybe the towing capacity in both countries is determined more by the hitch weight than by the total weight. If you were designing a hitch, the weight hanging off the end of the cantilever is kinda important.

I think there are plenty of vehicles that have the same back end on both continents, though brakes can be smaller on North American vehicles (since they do less stopping so get to cool down before being used again).

I do think both gravity and the laws of physics are about the same in both places, though to listen to tow-ers you might not think so.....
__________________
Andrew Gibbens is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-05-2014, 04:10 PM   #36
MC1
Senior Member
 
MC1's Avatar
 
Name: Wayne
Trailer: Nest fan, Airstream Sold
Ontario
Posts: 2,006
Quote:
Originally Posted by Andrew Gibbens View Post
I do think both gravity and the laws of physics are about the same in both places, though to listen to tow-ers you might not think so.....
For sure Andrew. This should be made a sticky.
__________________
MC1 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-05-2014, 04:21 PM   #37
Senior Member
 
Bob Miller's Avatar
 
Name: Bob
Trailer: 1973 Hunter Compact II
California
Posts: 7,912
Andrews comments sorta wipes out any claims for transferring European trailer towing weight limits to North American practices..... But of significant mention is that towing is expected to be slower in Europe, hence less emphasis on hitch weight as a % of the total.
__________________
Bob Miller is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-05-2014, 05:38 PM   #38
Senior Member
 
honda03842's Avatar
 
Name: Norm and Ginny
Trailer: Scamp 16
Florida
Posts: 7,300
We tow with less than 8% tongue weight and have for 7 years. We do now tow with a sway bar but did tow our Sunline, Casita and Scamp without a sway bar for 3 years without one and did not experience sway. We do follow road speed limits and tire speed limits.

Someone linked the Uhaul fiberglass trailer manual to this site and I recall it listed a tongue weight range of 5 to 15%.

I will check but I suspect UK and USA Honda brakes are the same size. I'll repost if I am wrong.

Sent from my SCH-I535 using Fiberglass RV mobile app
__________________
Norm and Ginny

2014 Honda Odyssey
1991 Scamp 16
honda03842 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-05-2014, 06:26 PM   #39
Senior Member
 
Bob Miller's Avatar
 
Name: Bob
Trailer: 1973 Hunter Compact II
California
Posts: 7,912
But Norm.... With the weight of your trailer, isn't even 8% very close to, or even over, the manufacturers max hitch weight specification for your CRV.
__________________
Bob Miller is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-05-2014, 07:08 PM   #40
Senior Member
 
honda03842's Avatar
 
Name: Norm and Ginny
Trailer: Scamp 16
Florida
Posts: 7,300
No it's not over the Tongue weight rating. The rating is 100 kilograms or 220 lbs. We are usually a little less than 200 lbs on the ball.. We weigh the tongue a few times a year and before every significant trip. We weigh the trailer once a year before our fall trip. We probably have 100,000 tow miles on our Honda without any issue.

We also tow on lots of roads that are far from smooth. For example we just drove 300 miles to and from Harbour Breton, NL. More steep grades than I've seen since our cross Labrador trip. The grades were one thing the pot holes a whole different matter. Of course we played 'dodge them' with the pot holes, a little easier because virtually no traffic on the road. Actually driving around Newfoundland when not on the Trans Canada means rough roads.

One thing we do is to keep our heavier items over the axle (except for water which is always half full). We do travel with virtually empty grey and black tanks.

I know there are people who fear the liability issue for what ever personal reason they have. That's OK. I have learned that my CRV works and works extremely well for me. I do everything I can to insure it works as well as possible, doing the little things to make it better like shortening the ball's receiver shaft.

We are in some small measure a test case. We travel more than most anyone on this web site, go to really far out places and have a wonderful time in a reliable tow vehicle that is inexpensive to own and operate. I am willing to share what we do knowing it's not for most or maybe any.

People ask me about it all the time, every where we travel and stop. Forever asking is that a V-6. I explain what we do and how. Everyone can make their own choices.

As to road speeds in Europe that's over stated. They have some road speeds faster than ours. Certainly many of their roads are older than ours and smaller, yet we have those as well and of course we have many states where the speed limit is 55 mph.

It's true that I do not know why the auto manufacturers rate as they do, I only know what works and works well for me. As to Honda and our towing, I have been in verbal and written contact with them over the years up to the presidential level, seeking to encourage acknowledgement of what's possible. They know we tow, what we tow and where we tow. Not once has any one discouraged us from towing. Of course this is not an endorsement.

I only wish I could get a new car like the one I have.

Safe travels to all, by that I mean be safe and travel, not just travel safely.
__________________
Norm and Ginny

2014 Honda Odyssey
1991 Scamp 16
honda03842 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-05-2014, 11:55 PM   #41
Senior Member
 
chuyler1's Avatar
 
Name: Chris
Trailer: Scamp 16
New Hampshire
Posts: 165
Quote:
Originally Posted by Andrew Gibbens View Post
What I find interesting is that the maximum hitch weight on both continents is often the same - at 4% on the hitch, Europeans can tow a trailer of much heavier total weight than a North American at 10%.
I've been thinking the same thing Andrew. I really think vehicles have a limit on tongue weight and in North America that is expected to be 10-15% of the total weight of the trailer while in Europe they are fine with 4-5%. If a vehicle can only handle 200lbs on the tongue that translates to 2,000lbs in North America and 4,000lbs (1,800kg) in Europe. Whether that distribution results in sway really depends on trailer design and packing. If you get the majority of that weight on the axle(s) and you aren't counter weighting the rear of the trailer to reduce tongue weight then sway shouldn't be an issue at the government mandated speed limits for towing trailers.

...but that doesn't mean we can do the same thing here. Our trailers may not be designed with that sort of distribution in mind. Throwing heavy items like full propane tanks and generators right on the tongue doesn't mean you can put equally heavy items in the back to offset them and keep the tongue light.

And then there's the speed issue. Driving under 60 mph feels incredibly slow when 18 wheelers are buzzing past you at 70+ mph. People may say they keep their speed in check while towing, but I've seen plenty of drivers with UHauls and other trailers flying down the passing lane without any regard to what might happen if they had to make an emergency stop.
__________________
chuyler1 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-06-2014, 05:18 AM   #42
Senior Member
 
honda03842's Avatar
 
Name: Norm and Ginny
Trailer: Scamp 16
Florida
Posts: 7,300
Chris,

Much of making a trailer safe'r' to tow is conscious choice.

Our solution to 'weighty' tongues is not to do it.

We don't carry propane 'tanks', a single propane tank is adequate. We find propane available every where we travel, even the most far out places. In 13 years we've run out once.

On the rare occasions that we have carried a small generator it was carried in the back of the Honda, over or forward of the rear axle. (Actually if it's heavy we try to keep it over the axle instead of near the rear door of the Honda.)

Another factor for us is that between us we've lost 100 pounds of weight in our years of travel, not much of a factor because we're closer to the Honda's front axle.

As to weight distribution in the trailer, besides placing weighty items over or near the axle, we have little weight up high. All our canned goods are in a little pantry over the axle, similarly with pots and pans. Though we have more overhead cabinets than most, only fluff stuff is high.

We carry virtually no glass dishes, just plastic. Though we travel for long periods, we don't carry a lot of stuff, no screen rooms, no coolers, no....

We have under trailer storage, helping to keep weight low, for some of our tools, things we feel we need to carry but don't use often, like socket sets, extension cords, hardware.

Though none of these things are big things they all add a little margin to safer travel.

We do carry four outside chairs, they are all aluminum. They are light and have the benefit of not rusting.

We don't need to be paranoid about things, just conscious. We can make good choices that move our set ups in the best direction.
__________________

__________________
Norm and Ginny

2014 Honda Odyssey
1991 Scamp 16
honda03842 is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
"Why ask why" question.....distribution hitches... Franswa General Chat 10 11-18-2013 01:26 PM
Just Because You Have a Higher Education Cyndi B. General Chat 17 04-25-2011 05:48 PM
Using a WDH rated higher than required kevin61 Towing, Hitching, Axles and Running Gear 9 05-02-2010 07:24 AM
How do you make a scamp trailer higher off the ground Charlie Smith Care and Feeding of Molded Fiberglass Trailers 4 05-12-2009 02:39 PM
Higher education Alan #1119 Jokes, Stories & Tall Tales 8 03-23-2006 04:38 PM

» Upcoming Events
No events scheduled in
the next 465 days.
» Virginia Campgrounds

Reviews provided by


Copyright 2002- Social Knowledge, LLC All Rights Reserved.

All times are GMT -6. The time now is 06:05 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.