Adding Outlets - How did you?

[RogerDat]

So how did people go about adding 110 volt AC outlets or 12 volt cigarette lighter style outlets to their camper?

Looking at what is the best way to attach the box to the fiberglass under the seats or along the side of the cabinet. Most outlet boxes get attached to a wall or a stud in the wall so what do people do for a box when "wall" is 1/8 inch fiberglass seat?

[steve dunham]

Originally Posted by RogerDat

So how did people go about adding 110 volt AC outlets or 12 volt cigarette lighter style outlets to their camper?

Looking at what is the best way to attach the box to the fiberglass under the seats or along the side of the cabinet. Most outlet boxes get attached to a wall or a stud in the wall so what do people do for a box when "wall" is 1/8 inch fiberglass seat?

Fiber cut in boxes , Plastic cut in boxes , Metal Gem boxes with plaster ears , fiberglass cut in boxes and Madison clips ETC ETC Etc . The wall supports the box ,no need for a stud
I glue a piece of 3/8" plywood on the back side of the wall to stiffen up the plug area .

[Timber Wolf]

"Old work box" from Lowe's or Home Depot for the 120V. I bought marine 12V sockets for the 12V, believe they fit in a 1 1/8" hole. Measure twice, cut once. Fine tooth blade in jigsaw for rectangle boxes, hole saw for round hole, wear a dust mask!

[RogerDat]

Originally Posted by steve dunham

Fiber cut in boxes , Plastic cut in boxes , Metal Gem boxes with plaster ears , fiberglass cut in boxes and Madison clips ETC ETC Etc . The wall supports the box ,no need for a stud
I glue a piece of 3/8" plywood on the back side of the wall to stiffen up the plug area .

Would those metal boxes be this style? And if so did you run screws through the plaster ears?

http://i278.photobucket.com/albums/k...BoxAndClip.jpg

While I had the couch and bench seats out I fiberglassed some 1/4 inch wood to the inside for extra strength when I got around to adding outlets (which I am finally doing)

I am also wondering what else I might use in terms of an epoxy or whatever to add wood to support an outlet on the side of the cabinet while I have the sink out.

I am thinking of splitting the two receptacles and running one plug from shore power and one from the inverter. I don't use a lot of electric but would be nice to have a plug for each source at the kitchen.

[honda03842]

I increased the number of breakers to four, added 7 dual AC outlets (3 with built in USB ports) and four DC outlets to our 1991 Scamp 16.

I AC outlet and one DC outlet is under the dinette table in a dinette bench face. I used a saber saw to cut out a hole for the AC outlet and drilled a hole for the DC outlet.

I put an ac outlet in the 45 degree face of each dinette. These outlets each have two USB ports.

I put an AC outlet in the shelf area under the kitchen sink. Our Air conditioner located in the bottom of the close and the AC modification to the hotwater heater plug into this outlet.

I have two AC outlets under the front couch. One is for our new AC-DC Converter. The other is in the face of the couch base. It allows me to plug in the computer while writing.

Above the end of our couch is a cabinet. Below the cabinet is another 12 vDC outlet.

There is another DC outlet in the cabinet over the stove. I mostly use this one for my DC compressor for adjusting the door side tire.

The Scamp came with AC outlets in the ends of both kitchen cabinets. I replaced one of these outlets wit an outlet containing two USB port chargers

Lastly, under the trailer there are two AC outlets on the door side mounted on the frame at the rear in a 'water' proof metal box.

My breaker box is under the sink. For the outside outlets I ran wire from the breaker box under the dinette seat and drilled a hole through the floor running the wire to the waterproof metal box, the kind you see on the outside of houses with opening metal covers.

I sometimes use the DC outlets to plug in a 100W cigarette lighter inverter (12 volt to 110 AC inverter) to run the TV. The TV takes very little power, the order of 20-30 watts.

I similarly ran other wires to the other boxes. I attempted to divide the various circuits up so no breaker sees a lot of current at one time. We have not had a breaker pop in 6 years.

There is also a 12 VDC outlet in the panel behind the refrigerator, right above the rear tire. I use this one for plugging my DC compressor in to put air in that tire.

We do have a lot of outlets. The USB outlets are handy for charging our phones, Amazon Pad and E readers.

The boxes, wire and outlets all come from Lowes, regular home stuff. I typically use the blue plastic boxes with the rear ears to hold them in place.

I have also replaced one of Scamp's old outlet boxes.

I do not hesitate to cut the interior fiberglass. Besides cutting hole for outlets I've cut the the fiberglass to add 6 drawers, an Air Conditioner and a hamper.

I have not reinforced any of the cuts for drawers and we have some a foot high under one dinette. The fiberglass is really strong but if you choose it's easy to reinforce with 1x3 material

[steve dunham]

Originally Posted by RogerDat

Would those metal boxes be this style? And if so did you run screws through the plaster ears?

http://i278.photobucket.com/albums/k...BoxAndClip.jpg

While I had the couch and bench seats out I fiberglassed some 1/4 inch wood to the inside for extra strength when I got around to adding outlets (which I am finally doing)

I am also wondering what else I might use in terms of an epoxy or whatever to add wood to support an outlet on the side of the cabinet while I have the sink out.

I am thinking of splitting the two receptacles and running one plug from shore power and one from the inverter. I don't use a lot of electric but would be nice to have a plug for each source at the kitchen.

Yes that is a picture of a gem box and Madison clips.
Gem boxes come in different depths with or without cable clamps and Madison clips in different lengths. The Madison clips can be trimmed with a tin snips
Long leg of the clip goes up.!!
You can place small wood screws through the plaster ears to supplement the anchoring of the box.
If you use a metal box , the box must be grounded / bonded independently of the receptacle and you need to ground the receptacle. IE The grounding of the box cannot be dependent on the receptacle or if you remove the receptacle the box must remain grounded
A non mettalic cut in single gang outlet box would probably be a better choice in this application
One of the advantages of Gem Boxes is that they are gang able
so if you need a 2 ,3 ,4 ,5 ,6 ,7 ,8 , or 9 gang box , you can make up what you need on the job.
If you place two different systems in the same box ,then use a 2 gang box with a barrier and label the outlets.. The next owner of your trailer may not be mechanically inclined and may do something stupid..

[Jon Vermilye]

While using a metal box & ears is a solution, I agree with Steve that a plastic old work box is more practical. If you have limited depth, this type of box will work for a single receptacle, although you will have to use the front mounting flange to mount it. If you have more than one wire to the box, this type of old work box still provides room for additional wiring.

[RogerDat]

Thanks for the reminder on grounding box, seldom do metal boxes any more. In the past I generally ground box and outlet grounds to box.

Not too worried about future owner doing something stupid that hurts them. One plug will only work if the inverter is on, worst case I guess would be one outlet (properly labeled) would not work. Sort of a function/not function id 10 T check, rather than a Darwin award test.

I liked the metal boxes because they had better wire clamps than the blue plastic with tabs. I have used and hated old work boxes on a number of occasions. On the other hand they can be a life saver since at times nothing else will work. The metal was also shallower, protrude less into the space under the seats.

I set up for an outlet on the curb side bench seat on angled front. Heating pad at the bed comes right to mind.

On the rear front of the street side bench seat. For plugging in at back of table when set up as table.

Front of couch on street side, good location for charging stuff and laptop. Plan on one inverter plug hooking to here and a shore power plug Plus a 12 volt.

One on rear of kitchen base cabinet, next to bed. For counter top electrical use. Another place I would like to connect the inverter to a receptacle and shore power. Plus a 12 volt.

I don't use a lot of electrical stuff but a single outlet under the sink was not cutting it. Be nice to have some options on where to plug in the little electric heater, or use a coffee pot or hot plate on the counter sans extension cord.

Adding

[RogerDat]

Jon,
Thanks for the links, I like those shallow 8 cu in boxes. Two lines is most I would run, those look like they might work.

[steve dunham]

Originally Posted by RogerDat

Jon,
Thanks for the links, I like those shallow 8 cu in boxes. Two lines is most I would run, those look like they might work.

Box size is determined by wire count /volume and devices
#14 wire =2.0 CU IN
#12 wire = 2.25 CU IN
Internal cable clamps count as one wire
A device counts as 2 wires
A 2 1/2 " deep box is the minimum size I would use
Forcing the wires and device into a small box just leads to shorts and problems. Remember you need 6" of free conductor at each device to allow removal ,repair and replacement.

I seldom counted wires on the job , I used the largest standard box I could . The bigger box may cost more but you save time on the trim.
In most areas the shallow 8 cu in boxes are illegal. When we were forced to use them we added a wire mold extension ring on the finish to increase the cu in capacity. I would not use an 8 cu in box ,it is simply a bad practice
There are tables in the NEC showing the box and pipe fill for different AWG size and insulated conductors.

When I did inspections a sure sign of a homeowner special was
junction boxes where the cover was bulging because they could not get the wires to fit in the box or the wires in the box were cut short with bad splices because the box was too small.

[Borrego Dave]

Steve, just have to ask, all of the gang boxes I've opened up in any RV I've had were shallow depth from the factory. Are the codes different in RV's?

[RogerDat]

I'm "ok" doing most basic electrical work but one of the kids is a journeyman electrician. I try to get him over for larger projects because of the bits such as how many wires and connections and other code/safety considerations that I know exist but don't actually know well. Not easy for him to get free between work and the grandkids activities but if I want my work to pass inspection that knowledgeable planning is essential.

I have a metal box I'll use for the first box. Give that a shot. I'm also planning to use heavy extension cord rather than romex. Easier to run through the cabinets since it is flexible.

I still am thinking of wiring an outlet so that one receptacle is shore and one is inverter. I can be convinced it is a bad idea but really don't want double outlets in the locations that would be good to have an inverter driven outlet. I also do not have a converter to charge battery while on shore so can't just use the inverter as a source.

[Darral T.]

See the link below to see how I added an "outside" outlet. I wish I had had this installed at the factory but as a fairly new RV owner, there were ALOT of things that I learned. But this plug has worked out VERY well and very handy for cooking outside.

I simply attached the plug through the shell and into the box. If I'm not mistaken, I substituted the screws out for some longer ones. I also tied this outlet "downstream" to my inside GFI so it's protected.

https://www.flickr.com/photos/503516...57629339025888

[steve dunham]

Originally Posted by Borrego Dave

Steve, just have to ask, all of the gang boxes I've opened up in any RV I've had were shallow depth from the factory. Are the codes different in RV's?

Their are boxes and receptacles specifically designed and built for the RV / Mobile home industry. and RV wiring has it's own code section. Most of RV wiring comply with chapter 3 methods but there are exceptions.. We never used RV type wiring methods in general construction
My point was that an 8 cu in box can have only one 14/2 cable enter the box and you are out of room .There is no room for a standard device / outlet.
I remember doing service calls on mobile homes and dreaded everyone especially when they used aluminum wire.
With the use of GFCI and AF receptacles even the code volume allowance in a box are insufficient.

[Carl V]

Originally Posted by steve dunham

Their are boxes and receptacles specifically designed and built for the RV / Mobile home industry. and RV wiring has it's own code section.

I hope they improved the code since 1981 :

[steve dunham]

Originally Posted by Carl V

I hope they improved the code since 1981 :

NO and the poor connection from the receptacle to the branch circuit conductors often causes the plug to burn off and since trailers use a lot of wood paneling the wall get scorched or starts on fire. The trailer industry uses this wiring method because it is cheap , saves time and is often not subject to 3rd party inspections.
When they allowed the use of aluminum Romex we were constantly replacing burned up wiring in mobile homes.
There is a huge difference between meeting the code and best practice. We never back wired receptacles not because it wasn't up to code but because it was a source of problems for the home owner and led to warranty issues down the road.
On Multi wire circuits you cannot use the device to splice the neutrals or the neutral connection can not be dependent on the device. A bad neutral in many cases is more dangerous than a bad hot . If you lose the neutral you could end up with 240 VAC
impressed across the load.

[RogerDat]

I think I'm going to run an outlet outside from the inverter located where I can plug the main shore power plug into it. That way all of the outlets that would normally be available from shore power will be available from the inverter.


IF a converter is added I'll need to run the circuits for the converter and inverter though a either/or cam switch. This will avoid the converter trying to charge the battery using power from the inverter which is drawing from the battery. Kill the battery and generate heat if the converter can run while the inverter is running.

[RogerDat]

Well I am just wrapping up adding those outlets to the back. Turned out ok except initially when I plugged the camper into garage outlet the GFCI outlet in the garage would trip - never used to do that when I plugged the camper in so.....


Used the google site search on the forum and found thread from awhile back that allowed me to trouble shoot in short order. Cross linking in case anyone reading this thread runs into the same "now what did I do wrong" moment adding outlets. http://www.fiberglassrv.com/forums/f...tml#post603736