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09-28-2017, 12:04 PM
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#21
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Senior Member
Name: Buggeee
Trailer: Playpac
OH
Posts: 327
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Civilguy
Down bags, insulation, Clif bars, a friendly Husky, and a firm resolve will all be your friends here. And, take a tip from Jimmy Carter and wear a sweater! Good luck with your experiments and keep us posted!
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I love Clif Bars!!! and if "firm resolve" loosely translates to "sufficient foolishness" I've got some of that too!
Quote:
Originally Posted by Raspy
On my boat, I used to occasionally make coffee with an electric coffee maker while out at anchor. Rude for the batteries, but similar to what you are doing.
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I tried running the Keurig over Labor Day weekend and the inverter started packing its things to go home. No Way it said, not even if you say please. I'm cooking with propane outside, that goes for boiled water too. For the fun of things I told myself no propane in the cabin on this build so we'll see how that works out here.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Raspy
Wait till you begin to use batteries to make cold in the fridge. That is a more fun problem for me. ...It worked out very well.
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Done. Not nearly as interesting as your holding plate, but I use a common household 120vac 3.5 cubic foot chest freezer run with a refrigerator thermostat through the inverter. I had an old upright freezer doing this in my long long trailer but lost all the cold air every time I (or the many minions) opened the door... and the condenser motor was not energy star compliant, to say the least. On this build I went with a new freezer so it is much more efficient and... the cold stays in when I open the lid! Plus, when I kill my whole bank the first night out playing games with my heater I can use the chest as a cooler for ice to get through the weekend. When the motor is running it draws something like .89 amps 120vac x 11 = 9.79 amps 12v (thank you for the education peeps). It does not run for long or very often because a freezer is very very well insulated so Boondocking the refrigeration on batteries for a long weekend has been no problem at all.
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09-28-2017, 12:15 PM
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#22
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Senior Member
Name: Steve
Trailer: 2018, 21ft escape— 2019 Ram 1500 Laramie
NW Wisconsin
Posts: 4,500
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I have tent camped in Northern Minnesota at temps in the 20 below zero range without any source of heat except a Coleman stove & Lantern plus a campfire. There is no substitute for a good tent , ground pad , sleeping bag , clothes , gloves hat and boots.
Most women are too smart to camp out in the middle of winter so I would plan on the three dog approach.
One good thing about winter camping you don't need to worry about your food spoiling cause it's frozen like a brick.
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09-28-2017, 03:33 PM
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#23
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Senior Member
Name: Jon
Trailer: Escape 21C
New York
Posts: 2,387
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Buggeee
I tried running the Keurig over Labor Day weekend and the inverter started packing its things to go home. No Way it said, not even if you say please. I'm cooking with propane outside, that goes for boiled water too. For the fun of things I told myself no propane in the cabin on this build so we'll see how that works out here.
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If you prefer the Keurig type coffee maker, look of the motel version - this one draws 700 watts. It draws less current than the larger versions that keep the water hot.
I prefer a 5 cup drip coffee maker - my Black & Decker is rated at 600 watts during perking, and less than 100 keeping the coffee warm. When running on the inverter, I don't make a full pot, just a mug full, and shut it off as soon as the drip cycle ends. It uses around 6 amp hours.
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09-28-2017, 07:42 PM
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#24
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Senior Member
Name: Robert
Trailer: 2015 Escape 19 "Past Tents" 2018 F150 Lariat 2.7L EB SuperCrew
Arkansas
Posts: 1,298
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Not to derail the thread with a coffee discussion, but our favorite is a French press. Just boil a little water and you're good to go. A side benefit is, the coffee is better. No electricity needed, and very little propane.
__________________
"You can't buy happiness, but you can buy an RV. And that is pretty close."
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09-28-2017, 08:42 PM
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#25
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Senior Member
Name: Buggeee
Trailer: Playpac
OH
Posts: 327
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rbryan
Not to derail the thread with a coffee discussion, but our favorite is a French press. Just boil a little water and you're good to go. A side benefit is, the coffee is better. No electricity needed, and very little propane.
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The French press Rocks! Love that thing. Down this road... A friend had a Turkish coffee stove top maker that used very little water, very little mess and made a thick brew. Been meaning to try out one of those on a trip. I'm the only one on our site who is hopelessly addicted to the bean, which is why I run the Keurig (single serving one) on the shore. I don't have the patience for the camp stove perculator any more or the cleaning of the basket. Lazy bones. Maybe bring the press then. Good thought, and good coffee!
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09-28-2017, 08:50 PM
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#26
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Senior Member
Name: John
Trailer: 1979 Boler 1700
Michigan
Posts: 2,048
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jon Vermilye
I prefer a 5 cup drip coffee maker - my Black & Decker is rated at 600 watts during perking, and less than 100 keeping the coffee warm. When running on the inverter, I don't make a full pot, just a mug full, and shut it off as soon as the drip cycle ends. It uses around 6 amp hours.
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Jon, a Black&Decker 600 watt coffee maker might draw 6 amps at 110 vac, and the way you are using it (i.e., shut off as soon as the drip cycle ends), it is probably consuming less than 1 amp hour of power.
EDIT: Scratch what I said... you probably meant 6 amp hours at 12vdc?
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09-28-2017, 09:25 PM
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#27
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Senior Member
Name: Buggeee
Trailer: Playpac
OH
Posts: 327
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jon Vermilye
If you prefer the Keurig type coffee maker, look of the motel version - this one draws 700 watts. It draws less current than the larger versions that keep the water hot.
I prefer a 5 cup drip coffee maker - my Black & Decker is rated at 600 watts during perking, and less than 100 keeping the coffee warm. When running on the inverter, I don't make a full pot, just a mug full, and shut it off as soon as the drip cycle ends. It uses around 6 amp hours.
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This confused me because I use the Keurig K15, which is a single serving machine and, I thought, the smallest of the K rigs. CNET rates it at 1500 watts at 120vac, which is 12.5 amps x 11 = 137.5 amps pulled from 12v batteries through the inverter. This triggers an immediate shut down of my inverter.
The "hotel" rig you metioned turns out to be the Keurig 130. At only 700 watts 120vac that's 5.8 amps x 11 = 64.2 amps pulled from the 12v batteries through the inverter. My system can do that!!! The specs suggest it runs for three minutes. 64.2 amps ÷ 60 minutes per hour x 3 minutes = 3.21 amp hours cost per cup of fresh brew, with no mess. Awesome!
Um Honey... About that third Keurig machine that came in the mail, you see... it's just a matter of math. You take the electrons times the milligrams of caffeine and... Honey?
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09-28-2017, 10:23 PM
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#28
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Senior Member
Name: Dale
Trailer: 2010 EggCamper; 2002 Highlander 3.0L; 2017 Escape 21'; 2016 F-150 5.0L Fx4
Colorado
Posts: 746
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This discussion reminded me of a time Dolly Parton wore a dress so tight the seams started bursting. In response, she said her father always told her, "You can't put 10 pounds of potatoes in a 5 pound sack." In this case, it seems like the OP is trying to get 10 pounds of potatoes out of a 5 pound sack. I think that pesky First Law of Thermodynamics might be part of the problem here. That said, don't forget the BTU's available in a nice bottle of peppermint schnapps on a cold night.
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09-29-2017, 05:13 AM
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#29
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Senior Member
Name: Buggeee
Trailer: Playpac
OH
Posts: 327
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Quote:
Originally Posted by War Eagle
This discussion reminded me of a time Dolly Parton wore a dress so tight the seams started bursting. In response, she said her father always told her, "You can't put 10 pounds of potatoes in a 5 pound sack." In this case, it seems like the OP is trying to get 10 pounds of potatoes out of a 5 pound sack. I think that pesky First Law of Thermodynamics might be part of the problem here. That said, don't forget the BTU's available in a nice bottle of peppermint schnapps on a cold night.
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Or... Trying to see what I can make out of my 5 pounds of potatoes!
So far this has been really useful. Already I have a rough calculation of what the total run time of the heater might be - so I can ration it's use appropriately during a trip. After all, it's not the size that matters, it's how you use it that counts.
Also, as an added bonus, I have been informed of a k-cup brewer that will run on my inverter and have calculated the cost, in amp hours, for each cup.
Thank you to all who are playing!
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09-29-2017, 06:07 AM
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#30
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Senior Member
Name: John
Trailer: 1979 Boler 1700
Michigan
Posts: 2,048
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Suspend disbelief
____________________________
Waking up after recovering from the schnapps : okay where was I... 90 amp draw for the heater so I need #2/0 wire between battery and inverter....
Well, there are plenty of rigs out there that have enough solar panels and and batteries to do this for an hour or so ...
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09-29-2017, 06:37 AM
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#31
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Senior Member
Name: John
Trailer: 1979 Boler 1700
Michigan
Posts: 2,048
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My idea for storing tons of battery power is to use a tow vehicle with a heavy duty alternator to charge up a large battery bank. A friend is doing a commercial van conversion that incorporates a 300 amp LiFePo battery bank charged by the vehicle's 150 amp alternator which has LOTS of spare capacity. The battery bank can be completely re-charged in a 3-4 hours, or topped off by idling the vehicle for a short time. Maybe add some solar panels...
EDIT: Uses a DC-to-DC charging circuit
With that setup, heck just run a 30 amp cable from tow vehicle to camper. Done!!
EDIT: Could run the 110vac 30 amp cable, or much heavier gauge 12vdc cable, or both
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09-29-2017, 06:47 AM
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#32
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Senior Member
Name: Buggeee
Trailer: Playpac
OH
Posts: 327
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Quote:
Originally Posted by John in Michigan
Suspend disbelief
____________________________
Waking up after recovering from the schnapps : okay where was I... 90 amp draw for the heater so I need #2/0 wire between battery and inverter....
Well, there are plenty of rigs out there that have enough solar panels and and batteries to do this for an hour or so ...
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Yes! Now we're rolling. I have, earlier, calculated the 6 amp 120vac draw of my 750 watt heater to be a 66 amp draw 12v and about an 80 minute run time to kill half of an allocated 180 amp hours from the bank. I'm using a timer switch so I can decide how many minutes of that I choose to spend on any given run of the heater.
Recognizing that they can't be run at the same time, the hotel Kuerig brewer uses almost as much draw as the heater,. So I'll loose 3 minutes of run time for each k-cup I indulge in before I step outside to fire up the propane grill for a French press.
The rest of my amp hours in the 400 amp hour bank is allocated to refrigeration, lights, water pump, etc. Again, solar is a supplement but not calculated into the game here. Assume a perpetual eclipse.
I do, indeed, use finely stranded copper 2/0 arc welding cable to connect my inverter to the battery bank, about 8 inches in length, and an 80 amp 12v circuit breaker between them. So... Very robust and as minimal a run drop as is reasonably possible. I also used the 2/0 cable to make the connections between the batteries together in the bank.
Having all these ideas, considerations and calculations in one place, one thread, is fantastic. What a great forum. Great peeps here for sure.
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09-29-2017, 06:58 AM
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#33
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Senior Member
Name: Buggeee
Trailer: Playpac
OH
Posts: 327
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Quote:
Originally Posted by John in Michigan
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Great Idea John. Down that road... My primary TV is a full size 4x4 pickup truck so I've been simmering the idea of how to use my leftover 430 amp hour golf cart battery bank as an add-on supplement to bring if I think I need it. Maybe by putting it on a receiver cargo carrier on the back of the truck with a hitch extender or something and running some of the 2/0 cables to some kind of crazy 12 volt plug on the trailer's battery bank.
The idea would be to drag that extra 250 lb of batteries along and then drop them off the receiver along with the trailer when I park it. Then plug them into the bank.
I haven't really thought that through yet but it would double my bank for purposes of this exercise.
My better half will never believe that there are other people in the world letting this nonsense roll around their noggin
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09-29-2017, 07:04 AM
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#34
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Senior Member
Name: John
Trailer: 1979 Boler 1700
Michigan
Posts: 2,048
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Yep or just leave those extra batteries on the truck so you can re-charge them when while driving. I edited my previous post to mention that the vehicle alternator powers a DC-to-DC charger. The DC-to-DC charger is really the best way to charge a camper battery...
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09-29-2017, 07:27 AM
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#35
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Senior Member
Name: Dave W
Trailer: Escape 19 and Escape 15B
Alberta
Posts: 523
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Raspy
Just as a suggestion and followup to Civil's post, consider the best alternative to the down bags, huskies, etc, is probably much more likely to be a warm girlfriend. These can be very effective, but the cost may be prohibitive.
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Bringing the girlfriend along could also make your wife a little pissed! You may have to bring both of them along!
__________________
Dave W - 2013 Escape 19', 2013 Escape 15B and 2011 Toyota FJ Cruiser
"You've got to be very careful if you don't know where you are going, because you might not get there." - Yogi Berra
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09-29-2017, 07:39 AM
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#36
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Senior Member
Name: Buggeee
Trailer: Playpac
OH
Posts: 327
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ice-breaker
Bringing the girlfriend along could also make your wife a little pissed! You may have to bring both of them along!
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I "put a ring on it" but she's still my girlfriend so there's only one, and she ain't coming on this trip Believe Me!
So... two small dogs, a sweater, Rumple Minze (War Eagle may stop by the site for a hello), zero degree bag, and the natural recapture of excess heat steaming off my inverter. I'm ready!!!
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09-29-2017, 08:41 AM
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#37
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Senior Member
Name: Dale
Trailer: 2010 EggCamper; 2002 Highlander 3.0L; 2017 Escape 21'; 2016 F-150 5.0L Fx4
Colorado
Posts: 746
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Buggeee
... Rumple Minze ..."
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You have good taste in schnapps! Now back to this potato thing - I remember two random facts that might meld together to help you: 1) I recall seeing a high school science project where a kid stuck two wire leads into a potato and it lit a light bulb, and 2) I recall hearing that if a person could keep their feet warm, the rest of their body would feel warm. So, if all that is true, then I think you simply need to calculate how many potatoes it would take to illuminate 8 slender little incandescent Christmas tree bulbs (like those below; you'll need to check wattage output of each for proper calculations) positioned between your toes of both feet under a heavy pair of socks to help hold the heat in. Then just convert to 10-pound sack equivalents and head to your local grocery store. Voila!!
Replacement Clear Mini String Light Bulbs
(Do I hear a "Patent Pending"?)
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09-29-2017, 09:01 AM
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#38
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Senior Member
Name: John
Trailer: 1979 Boler 1700
Michigan
Posts: 2,048
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Careful with that wiring between the toes... Will your two dogs be getting any bigger? If not you might want to consider trading them in for two BIG dogs
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09-29-2017, 09:29 AM
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#39
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Senior Member
Name: Buggeee
Trailer: Playpac
OH
Posts: 327
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The only thing big about these dogs is their attitude. One is a toy so he's going to chicken out anyway.
Do have this math right? The 66 amp draw of the heater on the 12v side is being supplied, ultimately, by four (4) 100 amp hour 12v batteries run parallel. So, does that mean that each battery is being called upon for a draw of 66 divided by 4 equals 16.5 amp demand from each? I don't have any more weight to spend on batteries in the rig so I'll be topping out at the four of them but am curious to confirm the calculation here as the amount demanded from the battery influences the amp hours the battery ultimately supplies (in other words, draw it slow and more total amp hours are delivered but draw it out fast and inefficiencies of some kind depreciate the total amp hours that it ultimately provides). This set up started and ran on just two of the batteries so it should be in better shape yet (or not abused to the same degree) once the load is being shared by all four at the same time.
This is a relative discussion, my batteries know full well that "the beatings will continue until morale improves."
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09-29-2017, 09:37 AM
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#40
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Senior Member
Name: Mike
Trailer: Escape 21 & Jeep GC 5.7 (Previous 2012 Casita FD17 & 2010 Audi Q5)
Puget Sound, WA
Posts: 1,775
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Buggeee
So... two small dogs, a sweater, Rumple Minze (War Eagle may stop by the site for a hello), zero degree bag, and the natural recapture of excess heat steaming off my inverter. I'm ready!!!
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OK, I just can't stand it, I've got to math!
Naw, other than neglecting to divide by the airspeed of an unladen swallow, everyone else has been covering the formulas real well already.
However, I do have some other thoughts for the good of the order here. Given the amperage passing through the connections on that finely wrought 2/0 welding cable, it might be a good thing to ensure that the connections are soldered, or at least that they are well made, and perhaps treated with a suitable anti-oxidant as applicable.
(Digression: While it sounds as though any heat lost at that connection's location will likewise accrue to the inside of the trailer, the corresponding under-voltage stresses on downstream wiring and devices is probably worth avoiding. I've seen connections that melted the insulation and/or caused faults in motor control cabinets when large stranded conductors weren't properly torqued (and re-torqued) as required. One was in the factory wiring at the back of a medium-voltage soft-start panel and we had the devil's own time locating it.)
As long as you are not being a purest here, you might consider collecting some heat from the propane stove and introducing it to the trailer via heating some cast iron plates or a few pounds of spare bullion. This approach would allow you to collect some Btu's for redistribution into the trailer. in the tradition of old fashioned bed warmers.
An electric heater basically has a 1:1 efficiency in producing heat, barring some tiny losses to light or sound energy. A ductless mini-split actually serves to collect heat from the environment. I don't know that there is any application here, but it's an intriguing thought from the mathmagical perspective...
The Safe and Warm (TM) brand electric blanket is described as operating on low voltage. That might reduce the current draw and allow you to mine some additional capacity from the battery bank there. I've never looked into the voltage and draw on ours as we have a reliable utility power grid locally. I will leave that task to the interested and the motivated here.
__________________
~ “It’s absurd to divide people into good and bad. People are either charming or tedious.” Oscar Wilde ~
~ “What the human being is best at doing is interpreting all new information so that their prior conclusions remain intact.” Warren Buffett ~
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