Deep cycle battery maintenance? - Page 2 - Fiberglass RV


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Old 08-24-2013, 01:36 PM   #15
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Like Byron, I use a BatteryMinder to keep my batteries fresh. It's a good product, and I highly recommend it because it will save your battery and save you money. That goes double (or triple, since that's the cost difference) for people who buy more expensive maintenance-free AGM batteries for their trailer. (AGM batteries are more durable in harsh environments, last longer, and charge more efficiently than traditional "flooded cell" batteries.)

--

OK, that's the opinion part of this post. If you want to learn more of the how-and-why science of why batteries die and how the BatteryMinder works, you can read on. Otherwise you can just bug out now.

--

Lead-acid batteries die when they become "sulphated." More accurately, they loose their ability to hold a charge as the lead plates in the battery become progressively more covered and clogged by hard lead sulphate crystals that form as a by-product of discharging the battery.

When lead-acid batteries discharge, the sulphuric acid in the battery water reacts with the lead in the plates inside the battery to create electrons, hydrogen ions, and lead sulphate. When the battery is re-charged the process is reversed. Over-charging the battery splits the water (H2O) in the battery into hydrogen and oxygen gas in a process called electrolysis. (More precisely, hydrolysis.)

So, here's the thing: it may not seem intuitive, but lead sulphate comes in two very different forms, a soft, fluffy one and a hard crystal type. Whenever your battery discharges it create some of each form of lead sulphate, and the ratio varies depending on how well the battery is charged.

That lead sulphate comes in two forms may not seem intuitive, but you've seen this before: think about diamonds and the graphite in pencil leads. They're both exactly the same thing, elemental carbon, but diamonds are hard enough to cut glass where graphite crumbles onto the page when you drag a pencil across it.

The soft fluffy form of lead sulphate is your battery's friend, because it readily converts back into the elemental lead and sulphuric acid your battery depends on to hold a charge. The hard crystal lead sulphate is your battery's mortal enemy, because they it refuses to break up into lead and sulphuric acid when standard charging techniques are used and because it prevents the sulphuric acid and lead from coming into contact with one another so the battery can make electricity for you.

When your battery is fully charged and you pull power from it almost all of the lead sulphate it creates is deposited in the "soft" form, but as you pull the battery charge down, you form more and more of the hard lead sulphate crystals. When the battery discharges below about 60% of it's total capacity, the rate at which the crystal sulphate forms starts to increase rapidly, by the time the battery reaches the 15% mark, it is the dominant form. This is why "Cycling" a lead-acid battery is a good way to kill it.

There are two other times that lead sulphate crystals are more likely to form in your battery. One is when you "boil off" (or, more technically, convert your battery water into oxygen and hydrogen gas through the process of hydrolysis) and lower the water level to the point where the lead plates become exposed. The other is when your battery just sits, and "self-discharges" while it's not being used.

Using a "float charger" when you store your trailer prevents lead-acid batteries from self-discharging and creating crystal sulphate. It also keeps them fully charged for when you're ready to use them. The down-side is float-charging can also boil off the battery water through hydrolysis and expose the lead plates. (Using a good-quality trickle charger, like the BatteryMinder, Battery Tender, and others slows the process of boiling your battery water off, so you don't have to check your water leves quite as often. Sealed, "maintenance-free" AGM batteries are less prone to boiling, which is one of the reasons they last longer.) So trickle or float chargers can be your friend, as long as you maintain your battery water levels with distilled water. (NEVER tap water, which contaminates the acid solution and can kill the battery.)

I said that standard charging techniques can't convert lead-sulphate crystal back into its more useful "soft" form, but non-traditional charging techniques can. By charging the battery with precisely-timed little pulses of energy, you can get the atoms and molecules to start moving about and break up.

The process is something like giving a child in a swing a series of little pushes. At first the swing only moves a little, but after a while the child is swinging so madly that the chains of the swing go slack at the top of the arc and give a little jerk before the swing heads back down. Using pulses of electrical charge at the right frequency causes the lead sulphate crystals in a battery to start moving around in much the same way. When they reach the point where they experience that little jerk, they separate and decompose into the non-crystalline soft form, but this approach only works when the battery is fully charged (in "float" mode). When the battery isn't fully charged the energy goes into charging the battery instead of making the crystals vibrate.

The BatteryMinder's claim to fame is it is a float charger that creates these little pulses. Used in place of your trailer's hookup converter or battery charger when your trailer is stored and it can double or triple your battery's lifetime. Better yet, it keeps your trailer battery working like new and prevents it from "running down" early in the evening like most older batteries do.

Lead Sulphate crystals are not the only thing that kills lead-acid batteries. Another major culprit is "rust," or, more accurately, the formation of red lead oxide. Oxidation is a slow and inevitable process, but you can slow the process down by using an intelligent trickle charger that is less prone to boiling your battery water and creating the oxygen gas that's required to form the lead oxide and less prone to boiling water off so the plates are exposed to the oxygen-rich air. No battery will last forever.

Side note: One of the reasons I like AGM (Absorbed Glass Mat) batteries is they are less prone to form either lead sulphate crystals or lead oxide, so they last longer. Their glass mat and lead plate sandwich structure also prevents vibration (from towing on rough roads) from damaging the plates and keeps the chemicals involved in the power-storage and release process closer together, making them easier to charge. (Meaning you don't loose as much power in the process of charging the battery.) And, finally, they are maintenance-free batteries that you never have to add water to.

My wife and I boondock a lot, and depend on two 50 watt solar panels to keep our battery charged, so a well-functioning battery is an important part of our camping experience. When we store our trailer, however, we keep it under cover and use a BatteryMinder to float-charge the battery. It works like a charm and keeps our expensive AGM battery in good shape. I highly recommend it.
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Old 08-24-2013, 02:51 PM   #16
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Nice write up. The chemistry lesson is appreciated. I too use an AGM battery. I'm on year 7 and figure about 300-400 charge discharged cycles so far. Raz
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Old 08-24-2013, 03:53 PM   #17
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Heck of a post Peter.

I don't understand why people need a battery minder. We had 14 year old Trojan 105s and simply kept than on the converter with built in smart charger.

When we sold the motor home our batteries had been powered for over 4,000 days, significant because a motor home has a significant drain even just sitting though in our case the motor home had almost 2500 road days.

Do you only need a battery minder if you don't have a smart converter?
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Old 08-24-2013, 04:38 PM   #18
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Heck of a post Peter.

I don't understand why people need a battery minder. We had 14 year old Trojan 105s and simply kept than on the converter with built in smart charger.

When we sold the motor home our batteries had been powered for over 4,000 days, significant because a motor home has a significant drain even just sitting though in our case the motor home had almost 2500 road days.

Do you only need a battery minder if you don't have a smart converter?

Norm,
Not all converters are equal. Mine undercharges, at 12.2 volts it stops charging. Not that good for the battery. I turned the converter OFF and never use it. Therefore when the trailer sits for 3 months in the fall I need some way to keep the battery at or near full charge. Plus the Battery Tender has a desulfate cycle.
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Old 08-24-2013, 04:45 PM   #19
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Byron, I know litttle about convertors other than the only one's we've owned. Our trailers have always had a Progressive Dynamics charger with their Charge Wizard cycle.

It provides a desulfating cycle automatically and resulted in great battery life.

When we're home for the summer we keep the rig plugged in continuously and leave the fridge on. So far we've never had a fridge or battery problem.
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Old 08-24-2013, 04:49 PM   #20
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Byron, you have mentioned the 12.2 volts output on your converter before and I just assumed you meant 13.2 v. Do you have any idea why someone would choose 12.2v intentionally or do you think you got a malfunctioning charger?

Quote:
Plus the Battery Tender has a desulfate cycle.
My understanding is that the "desulfate" mode simply boils the electrolyte to better mix the acid to prevent sulfate crystals from forming and does not reverse any damage already done. I have read about the high voltage pulsing Peter mentioned. That's interesting. Raz
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Old 08-24-2013, 05:08 PM   #21
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Byron, you have mentioned the 12.2 volts output on your converter before and I just assumed you meant 13.2 v. Do you have any idea why someone would choose 12.2v intentionally or do you think you got a malfunctioning charger?

My understanding is that the "desulfate" mode simply boils the electrolyte to better mix the acid to prevent sulfate crystals from forming and does not reverse any damage already done. I have read about the high voltage pulsing Peter mentioned. That's interesting. Raz

I called the American Converter factory when I was concerned about over charging. The response was that their converter shuts down charging at 12.2 volts therefore would not "over charge". I haven't verified that, but from experience it might not be far off. I decided it wasn't worth the effort to do anything other than flipping the breaker to off and use the Battery Tender when it's sitting at home. On the road the tow and a solar panel with charge controller set to 13.9 Volts does all I need.

The charge controller on the solar panel documentation indicated at the desulfate cycle goes to the high 14 volt area for about an hour. Pretty much goes along with what said.
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Old 08-24-2013, 05:08 PM   #22
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Originally Posted by honda03842 View Post
I don't understand why people need a battery minder. We had 14 year old Trojan 105s and simply kept than on the converter with built in smart charger.

...

Do you only need a battery minder if you don't have a smart converter?
Right - your smart charger in maintenance mode should behave the same as a battery maintainer. Lots of our trailers don't have smart chargers.
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Old 08-24-2013, 06:53 PM   #23
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Norm, your batteries probably lasted so long for a number of reasons.

First, Progressive chargers claim to fame is they are multi-stage chargers, meaning they charge at different voltages based on the charge state of the battery. At peak charge, when the batteries are full, they apply a trickle-charge voltage that is only very slightly higher than the battery's fully charged state. This keeps the batteries charged and prevents them from sulphating as long as there's enough water in the cell.

Second, with 200+ Amp Hours on your batteries, you likely rarely, possibly even never discharged your batteries below 11.9 volts resting voltage, the 60% discharge point where the sulphation rate really starts to pick up.

Your batteries, Trojans, were also top rate. Trojans are the first choice for many off-grid solar installations because even their "conventional" flooded cells employ AGM-battery-like strategies to both improve efficiency and hold cell rust and sulphation at bay. My next AGM battery, if I ever need to replace the one I already have, will be a Trojan.

Last of all, your trailer may have had a Wizbang desulphinator built in or added by a previous owner. The Wizbang is a "passive" desulpinator that does much the same thing as a BatteryMinder. It, itself is not a battery charger or maintainer, but uses the incoming higher voltage of the charger to run a desulphination oscillator.
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Old 08-24-2013, 07:18 PM   #24
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Peterh.

When we bought our trailer I removed the standard production converter and replaced it with the Progressive Dynamics Convertor, partially because the original convertor was heavy and had transformer hum and partially because of our prior experience with Progressive.

The older Progressive Convertors had a little module called a Charge Wizard that plugged into the front of the Convertor and defined the charge cycle.

In our Newbie years we had two times where the batteries were discharged below the 60% point. Initially we did not realize the magnitude of "storage" current draw on a motorhome and returned after a couple of weeks away to find the batteries discharged.

We managed to start the motorhome's generator with some effort and eventually were able to restore the truck battery to start the engine and eventually after a couple of days to get the "trojan house batteries" up to charge. They did not seem to suffer any ill effects for this poor treatment.

I admit it was disturbing to this Newbie.
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Old 08-25-2013, 01:41 AM   #25
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I have one. They don't make these anymore. I had the 2000 and it blew up two circuit boards on my charger. Xantrek repaired it for appear few and gave me a 1000, which I have not yet wired in as I and moving all my electrical panels to a dryer safer location on my boat.

They have nice features and if you understand shunts, are not terribly difficult to install. You can make corrections for aging batteries with reduced capacity, temperature compensation, and they support the three main battery types, wet, Gel, and AGM.
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Old 08-25-2013, 01:48 AM   #26
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Quote:
Originally Posted by peterh View Post
Like Byron, I use a BatteryMinder to keep my batteries fresh. It's a good product, and I highly recommend it because it will save your battery and save you money. That goes double (or triple, since that's the cost difference) for people who buy more expensive maintenance-free AGM batteries for their trailer. (AGM batteries are more durable in harsh environments, last longer, and charge more efficiently than traditional "flooded cell" batteries.)

--

OK, that's the opinion part of this post. If you want to learn more of the how-and-why science of why batteries die and how the BatteryMinder works, you can read on. Otherwise you can just bug out now.

--

Lead-acid batteries die when they become "sulphated." More accurately, they loose their ability to hold a charge as the lead plates in the battery become progressively more covered and clogged by hard lead sulphate crystals that form as a by-product of discharging the battery.

When lead-acid batteries discharge, the sulphuric acid in the battery water reacts with the lead in the plates inside the battery to create electrons, hydrogen ions, and lead sulphate. When the battery is re-charged the process is reversed. Over-charging the battery splits the water (H2O) in the battery into hydrogen and oxygen gas in a process called electrolysis. (More precisely, hydrolysis.)

So, here's the thing: it may not seem intuitive, but lead sulphate comes in two very different forms, a soft, fluffy one and a hard crystal type. Whenever your battery discharges it create some of each form of lead sulphate, and the ratio varies depending on how well the battery is charged.

That lead sulphate comes in two forms may not seem intuitive, but you've seen this before: think about diamonds and the graphite in pencil leads. They're both exactly the same thing, elemental carbon, but diamonds are hard enough to cut glass where graphite crumbles onto the page when you drag a pencil across it.

The soft fluffy form of lead sulphate is your battery's friend, because it readily converts back into the elemental lead and sulphuric acid your battery depends on to hold a charge. The hard crystal lead sulphate is your battery's mortal enemy, because they it refuses to break up into lead and sulphuric acid when standard charging techniques are used and because it prevents the sulphuric acid and lead from coming into contact with one another so the battery can make electricity for you.

When your battery is fully charged and you pull power from it almost all of the lead sulphate it creates is deposited in the "soft" form, but as you pull the battery charge down, you form more and more of the hard lead sulphate crystals. When the battery discharges below about 60% of it's total capacity, the rate at which the crystal sulphate forms starts to increase rapidly, by the time the battery reaches the 15% mark, it is the dominant form. This is why "Cycling" a lead-acid battery is a good way to kill it.

There are two other times that lead sulphate crystals are more likely to form in your battery. One is when you "boil off" (or, more technically, convert your battery water into oxygen and hydrogen gas through the process of hydrolysis) and lower the water level to the point where the lead plates become exposed. The other is when your battery just sits, and "self-discharges" while it's not being used.

Using a "float charger" when you store your trailer prevents lead-acid batteries from self-discharging and creating crystal sulphate. It also keeps them fully charged for when you're ready to use them. The down-side is float-charging can also boil off the battery water through hydrolysis and expose the lead plates. (Using a good-quality trickle charger, like the BatteryMinder, Battery Tender, and others slows the process of boiling your battery water off, so you don't have to check your water leves quite as often. Sealed, "maintenance-free" AGM batteries are less prone to boiling, which is one of the reasons they last longer.) So trickle or float chargers can be your friend, as long as you maintain your battery water levels with distilled water. (NEVER tap water, which contaminates the acid solution and can kill the battery.)

I said that standard charging techniques can't convert lead-sulphate crystal back into its more useful "soft" form, but non-traditional charging techniques can. By charging the battery with precisely-timed little pulses of energy, you can get the atoms and molecules to start moving about and break up.

The process is something like giving a child in a swing a series of little pushes. At first the swing only moves a little, but after a while the child is swinging so madly that the chains of the swing go slack at the top of the arc and give a little jerk before the swing heads back down. Using pulses of electrical charge at the right frequency causes the lead sulphate crystals in a battery to start moving around in much the same way. When they reach the point where they experience that little jerk, they separate and decompose into the non-crystalline soft form, but this approach only works when the battery is fully charged (in "float" mode). When the battery isn't fully charged the energy goes into charging the battery instead of making the crystals vibrate.

The BatteryMinder's claim to fame is it is a float charger that creates these little pulses. Used in place of your trailer's hookup converter or battery charger when your trailer is stored and it can double or triple your battery's lifetime. Better yet, it keeps your trailer battery working like new and prevents it from "running down" early in the evening like most older batteries do.

Lead Sulphate crystals are not the only thing that kills lead-acid batteries. Another major culprit is "rust," or, more accurately, the formation of red lead oxide. Oxidation is a slow and inevitable process, but you can slow the process down by using an intelligent trickle charger that is less prone to boiling your battery water and creating the oxygen gas that's required to form the lead oxide and less prone to boiling water off so the plates are exposed to the oxygen-rich air. No battery will last forever.

Side note: One of the reasons I like AGM (Absorbed Glass Mat) batteries is they are less prone to form either lead sulphate crystals or lead oxide, so they last longer. Their glass mat and lead plate sandwich structure also prevents vibration (from towing on rough roads) from damaging the plates and keeps the chemicals involved in the power-storage and release process closer together, making them easier to charge. (Meaning you don't loose as much power in the process of charging the battery.) And, finally, they are maintenance-free batteries that you never have to add water to.

My wife and I boondock a lot, and depend on two 50 watt solar panels to keep our battery charged, so a well-functioning battery is an important part of our camping experience. When we store our trailer, however, we keep it under cover and use a BatteryMinder to float-charge the battery. It works like a charm and keeps our expensive AGM battery in good shape. I highly recommend it.

AGM have advantages and disadvantages over Gel and Wet. I would not say any one type is better although AGM does handle vibration better.

Batteries that stay full charged, those that are not discharged much, and are charged slowly last longer. The best situation would be a large bank where only a small portion of its capacity is used, and then is recharged slowly.

Float/trickle chargers come in all types. I bought one for my motorcycle and it killed my battery by overcharging. I like quality three stage marine chargers. I plan to install one on my diesel pickup across both batteries pos on one battery and negative on the other to keep these in perfect condition. And I will be buying a new charger for my motorcycle or put it on a timer as someone else already mentioned.
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Old 08-26-2013, 10:00 AM   #27
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possible discharge?

I have an 84, 13' Burro with a simple 12V system. 24 Series lead acid battery on the tongue, no installed charger or converter. charging is done with an external 10 amp "Deep Cycle Battery Charger" (a 20 year old beast, but works nicely as long as I keep track of it when charging).

The 12V devices are: 3 interior LED lights, each with a PWM dimmer, Surflo water pump, Fantastic Fan. I installed all of this within the last year.

Recently when re-installing the battery in the Burro after charging, (sometimes I use the battery in my fishing boat with trolling motor), I noticed a small spark when attaching the second cable. This indicates a power draw somewhere. What do you thing it might be? The water pump has a separate downstream kill switch which is normally off. Do you think that the dimmers on the LED lights draw a little current all the time? One of the dimmers is a more expensive one with a positive click in the off position. The other 2 are cheapos with no click off. I suspect these.

Is there an easy way to test for current draw? Total draw at the battery position, and draw at the dimmer, to confirm that this is the culprit?

Rick.
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Old 08-26-2013, 10:21 AM   #28
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I have an 84, 13' Burro with a simple 12V system. 24 Series lead acid battery on the tongue, no installed charger or converter. charging is done with an external 10 amp "Deep Cycle Battery Charger" (a 20 year old beast, but works nicely as long as I keep track of it when charging).

The 12V devices are: 3 interior LED lights, each with a PWM dimmer, Surflo water pump, Fantastic Fan. I installed all of this within the last year.

Recently when re-installing the battery in the Burro after charging, (sometimes I use the battery in my fishing boat with trolling motor), I noticed a small spark when attaching the second cable. This indicates a power draw somewhere. What do you thing it might be? The water pump has a separate downstream kill switch which is normally off. Do you think that the dimmers on the LED lights draw a little current all the time? One of the dimmers is a more expensive one with a positive click in the off position. The other 2 are cheapos with no click off. I suspect these.

Is there an easy way to test for current draw? Total draw at the battery position, and draw at the dimmer, to confirm that this is the culprit?

Rick.
Do you have a propane detector. That's what causes the spark on mine. I added an in line fuse to the positive lead to let me disconnect away from the battery. It also stops the drain when not using the trailer. Raz
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