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Old 07-19-2019, 05:38 AM   #21
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Name: bill
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+10 You are making it too hard.

The original question in the OP, what is cost effective?

Cost effective is replacing your battery with a lead acid battery. Cost will be under $100. Sounds like your battery wore out. That is what they do. When they wear out, you replace them.

Imagine the battery in your tow vehicle wore out. You would replace it.

Then buy a battery tender to charge your battery.

Is it cost effective to buy an AGM battery? No, that increases your cost to ~ $250, and won't give better battery life (and certainly is NOT going to last 2.5 times longer). Lithium is even more expensive, think $1000 +/- PER BATTERY. Yes, Lithium is a better battery, with longer life too. The question is whether you want to spend 10X the price of a lead acid battery.

One side advantage to Lead acid RV batteries is they are available everywhere. So if you are traveling, no problem picking one up at Walmart for example.

The lead acid in my Escape lasted 6 years, that's pretty decent. I recently replaced it with another lead acid battery.

At some point, if lithium batteries decline in price, the switch to lithium will become more cost effective. Full time off grid living? Lithium could make perfect sense already!
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Old 07-19-2019, 06:23 AM   #22
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Most power hungry thing I run normally is a small fan. I want to replace that with a 12 volt model to run directly from the battery instead of running the inverter because that is more efficient.
not to turn this into a discussion of fans, but...the 12v breeze box fan from the fantastic fan folks is great, small powerful and doesn't eat up a lot of volts.

p@
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Old 07-19-2019, 06:44 AM   #23
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Originally Posted by thrifty bill View Post
+10 You are making it too hard.
..
Is it cost effective to buy an AGM battery? No, ...
I respectfully disagree.

First, figure $100 more for an AGM compared to an equivalent good quality true deep cycle battery. So if you have to buy a battery anyway, the difference is closer to $100. Second, cost is also measured in things other than the purchase price of the battery alone. Reduced maintenance on the battery, the wiring and the tongue (from corrosion) is worth something also. I had to repair the battery box mounting on the tongue after only three years because of the corrosion. AGM can handle the shock and vibration on the road better also. If you don't maintain the water / acid level in the wet battery then it dies and then the AGM battery would have been MORE cost effective. So if you're on a budget and dont mind the maintenance requirements and corrosion, then get a standard battery. But if cost effective to you means having all the aforementioned advantages, then go AGM.
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Old 07-19-2019, 08:18 AM   #24
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Originally Posted by gordon2 View Post
I respectfully disagree.

First, figure $100 more for an AGM compared to an equivalent good quality true deep cycle battery. So if you have to buy a battery anyway, the difference is closer to $100. Second, cost is also measured in things other than the purchase price of the battery alone. Reduced maintenance on the battery, the wiring and the tongue (from corrosion) is worth something also. I had to repair the battery box mounting on the tongue after only three years because of the corrosion. AGM can handle the shock and vibration on the road better also. If you don't maintain the water / acid level in the wet battery then it dies and then the AGM battery would have been MORE cost effective. So if you're on a budget and dont mind the maintenance requirements and corrosion, then get a standard battery. But if cost effective to you means having all the aforementioned advantages, then go AGM.
Doesn’t toyota use an AGM battery in the sienna ?
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Old 07-19-2019, 09:03 AM   #25
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Thanks Jon,

I'm surprised that your controller limited the absorption amps, at 85% charged, to only 2 amps. That is a very aggressive reduction during absorption.
The smart charger I had some experience with, regulated the current to maintain a battery voltage of 14.1 (during absorption) until the amps fell to 5, and then it went to float. It was a gradual taper from full amps, down to 5.

If your flat array was producing 16 amps at 14 volts, you were getting about 70% of it's rated output of 320 watts. That seems like very good performance for panels sitting flat. Of course we are near summer solstice.

So, I can see from your example that in your particular conditions, with your particular controller, quicker charging could occur with lithium. But don't cut down the collector array too much or the "quicker charging with fewer panels" theory will not hold. Do all solar controllers fall off on their absorption amps to that degree? If so, they are wasting power and lengthening charge times. The amps delivered should be driven by the voltage of the batteries and be a continuous curve.

My theory is that, for the most part, usage will rise to meet supply. The practical result of this is that most systems will spend most of their time in the bulk phase. If usage is small, the system will spend a lot of time in absorption, but if usage rises to near capacity, then the bulk phase will be mostly where the charging occurs. It's easy to get to this condition because the available real estate on the roof is limited and the collectors are flat. Plus, the convenience of having power means it can get used a lot.

We seem to be fairly heavy users of power, especially in the winter with the heater getting used. But on average, three to four days gets us to 50%, and that is with (4) T105, 6 volt, flooded batteries. Most of my solar charging has been done on other rigs I've had. I also lived on a 42' Ketch for many years and had to manage those batteries while charging with a dedicated alternator for that purpose. I had two 8D deep cycle house batteries there. Solar is much harder to arrange on a sailboat, and the power usage can be much higher with navigation lights, radar, autopilot and depth sounder always on, as well as the other loads similar to what trailers experience.
I probably should have been a bit more specific. The 2 amp rate was at the end of the 2 hour (non adjustable) absorption phase, with the batteries at 85%. At the start of the absorption stage, it was drawing 6 amps or so. The problem with the fixed absorption time is it switches to float well before necessary.

The most recent version of the GoPower controller does have the ability to repeat the absorption cycle, but I have found it to be a very conservative controller.

I'm currently using a Victron SmartSolar 100/30 controller, far better suited to lithium batteries.

As to cutting down the size of the solar array, that won't happen. I dry camp in the Arizona desert for the winter, and even with the addition of a 160 watt portable panel to the 320 watts on the roof, a string of cloudy days has me limiting power usage (that was with the wet batteries; I hope that will be different with the lithium).

I do tilt the rooftop panels to match the Phoenix solar angle during January & February...
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Old 07-19-2019, 11:39 AM   #26
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Originally Posted by steve dunham View Post
Doesn’t toyota use an AGM battery in the sienna ?
Maybe now they do, but my 2015 Sienna came new with a standard battery, and as you can see in the photo, when its time to replace the OEM battery in the not too distant future, some additional work will be called for dealing with the corrosion. This is what I hope to avoid on my camper which now has a AGM battery.
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Old 07-19-2019, 04:48 PM   #27
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Originally Posted by gordon2 View Post
Maybe now they do, but my 2015 Sienna came new with a standard battery, and as you can see in the photo, when its time to replace the OEM battery in the not too distant future, some additional work will be called for dealing with the corrosion. This is what I hope to avoid on my camper which now has a AGM battery.
Looks like time for some baking soda and a tooth brush
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Old 07-19-2019, 05:12 PM   #28
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Originally Posted by steve dunham View Post
Looks like time for some baking soda and a tooth brush
Yea. but I would only use baking soda if the battery were removed first.. too much risk of some getting in the battery and neutralizing the acid.
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Old 07-21-2019, 06:59 PM   #29
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I agree with what Gordon said, backed up with the quote from the Progressive Dynamics site. Ditto with the WFCO charger that came with my Lil Snoozy: It will work with my LiFePO4 battery, sort of, but wouldn't charge at all when I wanted to just top off the Li battery.
And why convert to Li and not take advantage of fast charge rates (requiring new converter/charger and fatter wires to the battery)? This was proved once again when we were camping last week. The campground host ran his Honda 2000 four hours a day; we ran ours about 40 minutes (rain and trees prevented solar charging). He had a bunch of gas cans to support his generator and we have none. Yes, I know this is anecdotal, not knowing his load, etc. but it illustrates the point.
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Old 02-01-2020, 03:32 PM   #30
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Smart LFP battery w/Smart Charge system is great for me!

I'm a retired EE, long-time dry camper, and long-time Smart Lithium Iron Phosphate battery user.
I've posted a good price for buying new-in-box LFP battery and description w/pics of my drop-in complete charge control and battery. I've focused on SAFE, MONITORED, and EASY during my design.
I really like the flexibility, thorough monitoring, ease of use, and ease of install or transfer of this system. We recently spent 50% of our 10 week Alaska camping trip off-grid. Both of us using my system LOVED it! One was an Aliner, the other was a Snoozy.

My brief posting and pics are at:
https://www.fiberglassclassifieds.co...ew-in-box.-900
Let me know if you have any questions or interest!
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Old 05-21-2020, 05:03 AM   #31
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Clearly AGM batteries will need to be replaced more often than Lithium. It is worth bearing this in mind as this entails time, installation and transportation costs, which further negates the higher initial capital cost of Lithium as does the lower cost of recharging Lithium.
No matter what battery choice you make there is also both a capital cost and technological risk at the outset. If you are in a position of having the capital for the higher upfront costs of Lithium, you might find that life is easier and that choice is a cost effective one over time. You can check this guide here for more details on these types of battery.
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Old 09-16-2020, 10:14 PM   #32
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I have a 30amp WFCO and lithium batteries. The WFCO can only partially charge the batteries but I knew that would be the case when I switched to lithium. To solve the problem I use a CTek smart lithium charger that conditions and tops off the batteries. However, I also have solar to charge and top off the batteries.

Given the fact that one lithium battery has the usable amp hours of two lead acid batteries, I do not really have to worry about charging them up as often. Plus their discharge rate is much higher than lead acid batteries which gives you more options in the systems/appliances you can run.
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Old 09-17-2020, 01:07 AM   #33
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Will Prowse might be an expert for all I know, but I dont see any references to his training or education on his web site. I do this this:
William Prowse IV (www.mobile-solarpower.com) is a participant in the Amazon Services LLC Associates Program, an affiliate advertising program designed to provide a means for sites to earn advertising fees by advertising and linking to Amazon.com.

and I noticed that the page you linked to is mostly a list of these referral links helping him get paid. And you can buy his book too. Nothing wrong with a little capitalism of course.

But back to the statement that "lithium batteries [which] use a battery management system, or BMS, ... works perfectly well with a standard multi-stage charger."

My understanding (as a self-admitted amateur in this field) is that using a lithium battery with a standard RV converter or lead acid charger (multi stage included) will give you the advantage of the greater depth of discharge available with the lithium battery but you sacrifice the higher capacity of the lithium battery because for a full charge it requires higher voltage that the lead acid chargers will usually provide. So yes, it will work. But will it work "perfectly well" is subjective.

But since I am not an expert in the field, I will quote the manufacturer of what has to be the most common brand of converter / charger in RVs... Progressive Dynamics:

Can I Use My Present Progressive Dynamics PD9200, PD4000 or PD4500 Series Lead/Acid Units With the Charge Wizard to Charge My Lithium Battery?

Yes, if you are willing to live with an expensive battery that is only partially charged. The Normal Output voltage of the PD9200, PD4000 and PD4500 Series voltage provides only 13.6-volts and a full charge voltage for Lithium needs to be 14.4 – 14.6 Volts. The PD9200, PD4000 & PD4500 Series Charge Wizard will initially jump to 14.4-volts in the Boost Mode when first connected to 120 VAC power and will remain there until the battery voltage reaches 13.8-Volts, then automatically drops down to the Normal Mode of 13.6-Volts. The faster charge rate of Lithium means that in the Boost Mode it will reach this 13.8-Volt point after only a few minutes of recharging and then the charging current will drop to ZERO AMPS and will not add any additional charge to your Lithium Battery. This lower charge state will not damage your battery, but will eliminate most of the advantages you paid for.


Then there is the issue of the BMS design - some are very basic and some are quite advanced.

So for me, the bottom line is that it is not logical to use a lithium battery unless you also pair it to a charger specifically designed for it.


Had similar considerations as OP. The replies so far have me leaning Away from Lithium for my needs. To gordon2, thank you for taking the time to follow the link provided by techscot, and posting your impressions, along with other information(and references) on the topic at hand. Well said.
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Old 09-17-2020, 06:39 AM   #34
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Lithium is clearly the "best" and is clearly the most expensive in initial price. Many don't keep an RV long enough to go through a battery, so longevity is not always that important.

I have a friend that replaced the traditional batteries in his large motorhome with Lithium. Cost was over $8,000 (lots of batteries). Six months later, he traded up to a newer/nicer motor home. Whoosh.

I tend to get 5 to 6 years out of my basic RV batteries. They work well, and no hiccups in a 11,000 mile trip to Alaska. With my tongue mounted batteries, replacement is a two minute job.

If you "know" you are going to keep your camper for ten years, I'd get lithium.
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Old 09-17-2020, 11:25 AM   #35
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for me I get a Walmart lead battery. there are Walmart's almost everywhere if you have issues. save the money and get a good smart charger or charge wizard for your power center and when not camping leave it plugged in. it will keep the battery at peak state so less issues with battery life. My battery is 6 years old now have added less than 3 table spoons of water in 6 years and no sulfate corrosion on the battery top. Can buy allot of lead battery's for the price of fancy high tech solutions.
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Old 09-17-2020, 11:46 AM   #36
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Originally Posted by gordon2 View Post
I respectfully disagree.

First, figure $100 more for an AGM compared to an equivalent good quality true deep cycle battery. So if you have to buy a battery anyway, the difference is closer to $100. Second, cost is also measured in things other than the purchase price of the battery alone. Reduced maintenance on the battery, the wiring and the tongue (from corrosion) is worth something also. I had to repair the battery box mounting on the tongue after only three years because of the corrosion. AGM can handle the shock and vibration on the road better also. If you don't maintain the water / acid level in the wet battery then it dies and then the AGM battery would have been MORE cost effective. So if you're on a budget and dont mind the maintenance requirements and corrosion, then get a standard battery. But if cost effective to you means having all the aforementioned advantages, then go AGM.

In our 2007 17' Casita Spirit I didn't like the battery in the back, located in a compartment, at all. You have to completely pull the battery to inspect the cells. Of course after a while one forgets to inspect and the battery fails. I installed a series 31, 110 ah, AGM battery in that box. I did have to cut the inside post off for it to fit our sloping box. I never inspected that battery after the first time to inspect for corrosion (of course there was none) and the AGM battery was just fine four years later when we sold the Casita.

If you don't inspect your batteries often that extra $100 is cheap.

Enjoy,

Perry
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Old 09-17-2020, 11:45 PM   #37
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Originally Posted by thrifty bill View Post
Lithium is clearly the "best" and is clearly the most expensive in initial price. ...

If you "know" you are going to keep your camper for ten years, I'd get lithium.
I totally agree!
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Old 09-20-2020, 02:46 PM   #38
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If you need more power than your lead battery will provide, you can put a similar sized lithium in the box and nearly double the amp hours in the same space. And the lithiums are much lighter. So, you might go to one light weight lithium, in one box, and replace two heavy lead batteries in two boxes.

Factor in size and weight, as costs, when considering what is practical.
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