Need Help Understanding Electrical System

[Huck]

This is what I have (Parkliner 2014). Picture somewhere below!

I assume on the right is 110v from shore power and 3 110v circuits. On the left is the 12v side. I can't find any information on the black box.

Questions:

1. What is in the black box?
2. Does 1 of the wires coming out of the left side go to the battery?
3. Does 1 of the wires coming out of the left side go to the 7-way trailer connector?
4. Is there a charger inside the box?
5. How does power get converted from 110v to 12v?

Feel free to answer any other questions I should have asked.

[steve dunham]

4 ) Transformer + rectifier

[redbarron55]

The top view looks like a Progressive Dynamics 4045 converter.
The left side is the converter that converts 120 VAC to 12 VDC and often or usually has a battery wizard built in to quick charge the battery and maintain with out over charging.
The right side is the 120 volt distribution with the circuit breakers for the 120 volt distribution to the trailer.
Power from the 12 volt side 30 amps and the 120VAC side 45 amps.
There should be a blue breaker that provides power to the 12 volt converter and the second red breaker is the incoming master breaker from the incoming 120 volt ac power source.
There is a stack of ATC fuses that correspond to the numbered wires (black) that distribute the 12 volt power to the various loads.
In my setup I used one of the fused circuits to bring the 12 volts from the tow vehicle to the battery buss.
There should be two fairly large wires from the battery into the converter, one of the Plus (+) and one for the minus (-).
Here is a link to the 4000 series manual:
https://www.progressivedyn.com/pdfs/...ish%20Only.pdf
For troubleshooting information:
https://www.progressivedyn.com/pdfs/...LESHOOTING.pdf

I hope this helps if I guessed right

[Huck]

Originally Posted by redbarron55

The top view looks like a Progressive Dynamics 4045 converter.
The left side is the converter that converts 120 VAC to 12 VDC and often or usually has a battery wizard built in to quick charge the battery and maintain with out over charging.
The right side is the 120 volt distribution with the circuit breakers for the 120 volt distribution to the trailer.
Power from the 12 volt side 30 amps and the 120VAC side 45 amps.
There should be a blue breaker that provides power to the 12 volt converter and the second red breaker is the incoming master breaker from the incoming 120 volt ac power source.
There is a stack of ATC fuses that correspond to the numbered wires (black) that distribute the 12 volt power to the various loads.
In my setup I used one of the fused circuits to bring the 12 volts from the tow vehicle to the battery buss.
There should be two fairly large wires from the battery into the converter, one of the Plus (+) and one for the minus (-).
Here is a link to the 4000 series manual:
https://www.progressivedyn.com/pdfs/...ish%20Only.pdf
For troubleshooting information:
https://www.progressivedyn.com/pdfs/...LESHOOTING.pdf

I hope this helps if I guessed right

Thanks. That looks like what I have. I need to educate myself on how all this works.

[Steve Carlson]

How fundamental do you need to go in seeking knowledge (always an admirable thing)? For example, do you understand the difference between AC and DC?

[Thinh]

Simple terminology: AC= alternating current, its polarities change back and forth..i.e with 50Hertz it changes 50 times per second, 60Hertz as of 60 times per second. DC= direct current, its polarities stay fixed. Some samples :12VDC as of car battery, flash light battery, cell phone battery ...when you see marked + positive and - as of negative terminals. And AC as 120VAC of shore power, house hold electricity, power lines( from 220VAC to...230 thousand volts ). To convert from AC to DC it must go thru: transformer to step down voltage then thru rectifier which combined of diodes and filter( capacitors and sometimes with coils. These capacitors are usually rated at 1thousand to 2thousand plus microfara)...Just a baby step in electrical theory..Share

[Huck]

Originally Posted by Steve Carlson

How fundamental do you need to go in seeking knowledge (always an admirable thing)? For example, do you understand the difference between AC and DC?

Yes. I understand simple electricity and installed the solar system in trailer so I can do some wiring, understand charge controllers, ah, solar panels, inverters, watts, amps. I looked at Battle Born batteries web site and looked at the kits they offer. Then I started looking up the equipment they recommended. I never had even thought about how the trailer battery was charged by the tow vehicle and what equipment was required and how it was wired. I just knew it happened.

That's when I figured I better understand the trailer electrical system and learn enough to determine if it would support what I want to do or did I need to replace all or part of it.

Here's my project. I hope to spend the next year boondocking around the country. I want to have enough power to run the ac at least during the day, run a microwave, run some other cooking appliances, and probably run a refrigerator freezer.

I just bought 2 300w solar panels I am going to mount on van I use as tow vehicle. I'm trying to decide how to power the trailer with them. I'm looking at 3 options, but I don't know enough to know which make sense or which is best.

Trailer already has 100w panel on roof plus another 100w panel I can connect via y cable. Two batteries @ 70 ah each connected by PWM charge controller to panels.

Works fine.

I plan on buying 2 battle born 100 ah lithium batteries, MPPT controller, and a 300w inverter (plus the 2 300w panels mentioned above).

Options

1. Replace lead acid batteries with lithium batteries and locate batteries inside trailer. Simply run cables from the 2 panels on van to MPPT controller located in trailer to connect to lithium batteries. Might have to change PWM controller to MPPT to connect 2 existing panels to lithium batteries. (need research). Connect inverter in trailer.

I don't know if this would work with current electrical system in van, which is why I asked for information in OP.

2. Leave trailer as is and install lithium batteries, MPPT controller, and inverter in van. Then run extension cord from inverter to trailer to power ac, etc. Would be great if I could just plug it in to trailer like shore power. Again, I don't know enough to know how well this would work.

3. This is option I would prefer. Make a portable power station that included the 2 lithium batteries, MPPT controller, and inverter. Leave the lead acid batteries in trailer, but put a quick disconnect on them.

I'm trying to keep this as simple as I can so it's not too confusing to read.

I want to operate the van and trailer independently or combined.

• Independently the trailer would operate exactly as it does now - 2 lead acid batteries, PWM controller, 200w of solar panels.
• Independently the van would have 2 lithium batteries, 2 300w solar panels, MPPT controller, and 300w inverter.
• Combined the trailer would have 800W of solar panels, 200w connected to one controller and 600w (from van) connected to MPPT controller using the 2 lithium batteries with the lead acid batteries disconnected.

Combined the van would have no usable solar power. In combined mode, the portable power station would be in trailer and when in Independent mode, portable power station would be in van.

Why? I want to use the van as a generator. If I need power some place where there is none, I just drive the van up and have 200 ah of power being recharged by 600w of solar panels. This would be great for power outages, emergency support, going fishing, building in a remote area, etc.

[Huck]

Originally Posted by Thinh

Simple terminology: AC= alternating current, its polarities change back and forth..i.e with 50Hertz it changes 50 times per second, 60Hertz as of 60 times per second. DC= direct current, its polarities stay fixed. Some samples :12VDC as of car battery, flash light battery, cell phone battery ...when you see marked + positive and - as of negative terminals. And AC as 120VAC of shore power, house hold electricity, power lines( from 220VAC to...230 thousand volts ). To convert from AC to DC it must go thru: transformer to step down voltage then thru rectifier which combined of diodes and filter( capacitors and sometimes with coils. These capacitors are usually rated at 1thousand to 2thousand plus microfara)...Just a baby step in electrical theory..Share

I know some of that, but I guess I am more interested in what device performs what function. For example, BB Batteries sells a charger/inverter. I know what an inverter is, but didn't know what a charger/inverter was and why I might need one. So I look it up and find that in addition to being an inverter, it will charge the tow battery. So I figured that there must be a charger in the trailer to take the 110v and charge the battery. And I was wrong!

So I need to know enough to understand functionally what is happening plus a little more. It's hard to explain, because if I knew what I needed to know I would just look it up.

I tried asking for design help on another site, and I think I asked too much. So I am instead trying to ask small questions as I go.

Eventually I will get to the point I can post diagrams and ask if they will work, better ways, etc.

I used to design networks, so it's just a matter of learning the terminology and function and I should be close.

[buff30]

It looks like your power center has a charger or more commonly referred to in this setting a converter. When your trailer is plugged into shore power (120 VAC). The converter section rectifies the AC into DC to charge your battery and power your DC loads. If you got 5 minutes this YouTube video explains.

https://youtu.be/5cbQNfO0Mwg

The biggest difference between this and an inverter charger is the inverter charger can work in both directions AC to DC and DC to AC.

As far as your plan. If your main goal is to run air conditioning off LiFePO4 battery I would place a 400 to 600 amp hour bank in the van with an appropriate sized inverter. When you place this kind of load on an inverter the cooling fans can get pretty noisy. Plus it is throwing off a ton of heat. If your inverter is inside the trailer it will be working against your AC. How many hours of AC run time to you plan to get out 200 AH or 160 AH in this case if you want your batteries to last as long as possible. The only thing working against the van idea is it's not an idea environment for your batteries. If you will experience below freezing temps you will have to figure a way to heat the batteries. They don't like hot temps either.

This is a good video of someone who runs AC off I believe 500AH of LiFePO4.

https://youtu.be/EHSpJWgeiEw

I am planning on installing 200 ah of LiFePO4 inside my trailer. I will use a generator if I need to run air conditioning.

[buff30]

Originally Posted by Huck

So I need to know enough to understand functionally what is happening plus a little more. It's hard to explain, because if I knew what I needed to know I would just look it up.

I tried asking for design help on another site, and I think I asked too much. So I am instead trying to ask small questions as I go.

Eventually I will get to the point I can post diagrams and ask if they will work, better ways, etc.

I used to design networks, so it's just a matter of learning the terminology and function and I should be close.

If you need help designing your system I would be glad to help.

[buff30]

Originally Posted by Huck

Questions:

1. What is in the black box?
2. Does 1 of the wires coming out of the left side go to the battery?
3. Does 1 of the wires coming out of the left side go to the 7-way trailer connector?
4. Is there a charger inside the box?
5. How does power get converted from 110v to 12v?

Feel free to answer any other questions I should have asked.

1) post a picture of the front of the panel with the cover open. Do you see a part number or model number on it?

2) Their should be to large gauge wires one negative one positive going to the battery. This is for allowing the charging current from the converter to reach the battery and to slow the battery power to be distributed to the various DC loads through the fuses in the left side.

3)Their may not be a direct wire from the distribution box to the 7 pin connector, however both the 12 VDC and ground from the 7 pin should be electrically connected to the distribution box some where in the trailer.

I think the remaining questions have been covered already.

[buff30]

After reading the options you are considering this is how I would set it up if it were me. In this case I would not be running the air conditioner off batteries. I will stick with your Battle Born plan for the purpose of the discussion. I am doing a diy LiFePO4 battery however this may be outside your comfort zone.

I would ditch the lead acid in the trailer. Install the BB batteries inside the trailer. If your power center that you posted is indeed a Progressive Dynamic they sell a replacement converter section for LiFePO4. As far as the charge circuit from the tow vehicle 7 pin you would need to install a current limiting device (to protect the vehicles alternator)and possibly a boost DC converter (to ensure a high enough charge voltage reaches the BB battery from the alternator). Or you could simply disconnect the existing charge wire. Your solar charger controllers as far LiFePO4 is concerned don't care if it is PWM or MPPT. What matters is that they can be programmed for the change profile of LiFePO4. I would run one controller in the camper with enough capacity for all or your panels both van and camper. The solar panels on your van I would just run them in parallel with the panels on the camper with an Anderson quick disconnect. This is all that it would take to integrate with your camper. The panels on the van are completely independent of the vans systems so no worries there.

If you have not read this thread I suggest you do.

http://www.fiberglassrv.com/forums/f...ozy-85205.html.

I like to minimize setup and brake down time so I am not a fan of moving batteries or solar panels around. However the panels on the van could be a huge asset allowing you to park the camper in the shade but keep the van panels in the sun.

[Huck]

I really appreciate all the help. It's going to take some time for me to digest all this, but I'll be back soon with more questions.

[Huck]

I think I have narrowed the options down to 1.

I'm going to put the lithium batteries, MPPT controller, and inverter in van that has the 2 300w solar panels. That way the trailer electrical system stays exactly the same as it is now. This is the simplest option, and keep it simple stupid definitely applies.

I have the option of plugging my extra 100w panel into either the van or the trailer as needed. If I need to run ac in trailer, that gives me the option of 700w of solar panels (plus batteries) in the van to power inverter. Then either extension cord or the trailer's electrical cable to connect to inverter.

I may find later that I need to change it, but I think it is the best option to start.

[buff30]

The only drawback to the van plan with batteries in the van is the environment for the batteries. You can absolutely not charge LiFePO4 if their temperature is below freezing. Also high heat reduces the life expectancy of the battery significantly. Think of how hot your van can get parked in the sun with the windows up. One of the reasons most people justify the high cost of LiFePO4 is 2000 plus cycles you should expect out of them. Not saying you can't work around this. For example if your van is not insulated you could build a battery box that is extremely insulated mabey with a damper you can open to get some outside air into the compartment when hot. You could also install a DC heat pad under the batteries to warm them up if below freezing.

The other limiting factor I see is the only way you have outlined to pass power from the van to the camper is through an inverter which is pretty in efficient. When you plug your camper into your van you would need to flip the circuit breaker for your converter so they don't try to charge the trailer batteries which is also an inefficient process. I would also include a heavy gauge DC power connector to run between the camper and van to run DC loads in the camper if needed. Possible with a DC to DC battery charger or converter depending on your needs. Let me know if you are interested in that and I can explain. How far do you expect the van to be from the camper when connected?

If you install the compressor fridge in the van it will also be fighting the heat (which will use a lot more power) depending on your setup and parking location. I am still skeptical about the air conditioner working well on this setup. I think you need a much larger battery bank. What is the reason you don't want to use an quiet generator to run the AC? I think it would be quite a bit cheaper in the end and you could run AC all day and night if you want to.

What type of van do you have? Does it already have some camper conversations built into it? Nothing wrong with it but you might wind up with two campers by the time you are done. The van could cover short outings and when combined with the trailer bring more space and adminities to the table? Where do you plan to camp when hot? If it is dry 12 volt swamp coolers are very efficient and I think you would have no problem with your planned 200ah.

[Huck]

Originally Posted by buff30

The only drawback to the van plan with batteries in the van is the environment for the batteries. You can absolutely not charge LiFePO4 if their temperature is below freezing. Also high heat reduces the life expectancy of the battery significantly. Think of how hot your van can get parked in the sun with the windows up.

I plan to be in south or southwest in Winter. The battery management in Battle Born batteries should protect them from too cold and too hot conditions. I will still have at least 100w with 70 usable ah in trailer, without connecting to van. If necessary, I can unplug everything in the van and not connect to trailer.

CheapRVLiving is currently doing a series on how to keep cool in a van. I'm hoping I can borrow some of his ideas to keep van from getting too hot.

The other limiting factor I see is the only way you have outlined to pass power from the van to the camper is through an inverter which is pretty in efficient. When you plug your camper into your van you would need to flip the circuit breaker for your converter so they don't try to charge the trailer batteries which is also an inefficient process.

The 100w solar panel on trailer keeps batteries topped off during most days. I think it would only be a problem if it is cloudy AND I run the AC, so your idea of flipping the circuit breaker is good. What I might do is just run an extension cord into trailer into a surge protector. This would isolate it from trailer electrical system.

I would also include a heavy gauge DC power connector to run between the camper and van to run DC loads in the camper if needed.

I think my current DC system should be OK. I have 2 12v sockets, plus everything needing 12v is already wired to existing system.

Possible with a DC to DC battery charger or converter depending on your needs. Let me know if you are interested in that and I can explain. How far do you expect the van to be from the camper when connected?

I've decided to go with just an inverter and not a charger/inverter. My current trailer system works fine for keeping batteries charged and I'm not going to tie the lithium batteries into the van's electrical system and battery. If I have a need for it later, if I understand correctly, I can put a charger in then.

If you install the compressor fridge in the van it will also be fighting the heat (which will use a lot more power) depending on your setup and parking location. I am still skeptical about the air conditioner working well on this setup. I think you need a much larger battery bank. What is the reason you don't want to use an quiet generator to run the AC? I think it would be quite a bit cheaper in the end and you could run AC all day and night if you want to.

I don't want to lug around a generator and have to buy and store gas. The 700 watts should be more than enough to run AC for the afternoon. Assuming the batteries get fully charged, they could run the AC continuously for another 4 hours or more. I cool my house with 2 500 BTU ACs and they don't run continuously even when it's in the 90's. I'll have to check some videos to see how van dwellers are handling heat from refrigerators.

What type of van do you have? Does it already have some camper conversations built into it? Nothing wrong with it but you might wind up with two campers by the time you are done. The van could cover short outings and when combined with the trailer bring more space and adminities to the table? Where do you plan to camp when hot? If it is dry 12 volt swamp coolers are very efficient and I think you would have no problem with your planned 200ah.

It is a 2016 Ford Transit I bought used. I put a floor in and started on insulation, but unfortunately it is my lowest priority right now. Worse case, I can use it as it is now. I already installed hitch, brake controller, and wiring. Still working on best (and cheapest) way to install solar panels. I probably will sell trailer in about a year when I decide where I want to live and buy a house.

I will likely be in Eastern US in summer, moving to Mississippi, Louisiana, Texas in winter. If severe cold in South, may head to AZ.


These are my best guesses; but like I have said, I don't know a lot about electricity, so I might be wrong about some things. Everyone feel free to add your 2 cents worth because it helps me learn.

[buff30]

I am not going to comment on the air conditioner anymore. It is getting ugly in your other thread. Worst case if it don't work as you planned you can always add more solar and batteries.

As far as the temperature of the batteries you are correct in the BB BMS will not allow charge or discharge it the temperature is above 135 F or charge below 25 F. The point I was trying to make if you batteries are exposed to high temperature they will be permanently damaged on a chemical level even if you are not charging or discharging. So no BMS could protect against this type of damage, only reduced the damage by preventing charge or discharge.

On the low temperature side I am surprised their BMS alows charging down that low. If you incorporate a simple DC battery heating pad you could quickly bring your batteries up to operating temperature if they were below freezing. And just so I am clear discharging LiFePO4 below freezing is allowed.

Just find a way to keep those batteries cool.

[Huck]

Originally Posted by buff30

I am not going to comment on the air conditioner anymore. It is getting ugly in your other thread. Worst case if it don't work as you planned you can always add more solar and batteries.

As far as the temperature of the batteries you are correct in the BB BMS will not allow charge or discharge it the temperature is above 135 F or charge below 25 F. The point I was trying to make if you batteries are exposed to high temperature they will be permanently damaged on a chemical level even if you are not charging or discharging. So no BMS could protect against this type of damage, only reduced the damage by preventing charge or discharge.

On the low temperature side I am surprised their BMS alows charging down that low. If you incorporate a simple DC battery heating pad you could quickly bring your batteries up to operating temperature if they were below freezing. And just so I am clear discharging LiFePO4 below freezing is allowed.

Just find a way to keep those batteries cool.

I appreciate all your help. On the low temperature side, with your heating pad idea I should be OK as I will be trying to stay away from freezing weather. On the high temperature side, I still need to do more research. Maybe someone can make a temperature controlled battery box!

[WizWid]

Originally Posted by Huck

I appreciate all your help. On the low temperature side, with your heating pad idea I should be OK as I will be trying to stay away from freezing weather. On the high temperature side, I still need to do more research. Maybe someone can make a temperature controlled battery box!

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[Huck]

Originally Posted by widgetwizard

Powered by .... oh never mind

If it can manage its own bms, why not the temperature as well?