phantom battery draw question - Page 2 - Fiberglass RV


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Old 02-17-2015, 04:09 PM   #15
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GO with Steve, I was going off memory from a year ago. I will edit out my info as not to mislead anybody. Thanks Steve!!
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Old 02-18-2015, 07:18 AM   #16
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Originally Posted by steve dunham
The incoming line (HOT) conductor in your service entrance cord should not be connected directly to the line ( Hot ) buss that feeds your branch circuit breakers You need to install a main breaker as per the PD 4045 UL listing . The proper wiring procedure is shown in the PD wiring diagram. Hook the incoming line to the load terminal of the main breaker ,this will backfeed the line ( Hot) buss .( The main breaker is not furnished by PD) The sizing of the main breaker ( Single Pole) is based on the ampacity of the service entrance cord. #14 AWG = 15 amps -- #12 AWG = 20 Amps--#10 AWG = 30 Amps . The grounded (neutral) and the equipment grounding conductors do not require over current protection.
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Analogous to the main breaker in a household service entrance. Unfortunately the Progressive Dynamics manual is a little brief. I would suggest if you don't follow exactly what Steve is talking about, find someone who does. Raz
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Old 02-18-2015, 08:22 AM   #17
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Analogous to the main breaker in a household service entrance. Unfortunately the Progressive Dynamics manual is a little brief. I would suggest if you don't follow exactly what Steve is talking about, find someone who does. Raz
Thanks Raz ; I know I got it right ,when I get your blessing. After teaching electrical code for 30 years ,I am in the habit of using code speak and forget that many are not fluent in that language. I"ll work on that over the summer !!
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Old 02-18-2015, 09:19 AM   #18
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,I am in the habit of using code speak and forget that many are not fluent in that language. I"ll work on that over the summer !!
Frankly, I don't think you should work on anything. If folks don't follow you they need to seek help. While I know the fundamentals, you know the practice. There is a reason things are done a certain way. You know far more than I do. I'm the student here. Keep up the good work. Raz
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Old 02-18-2015, 09:21 AM   #19
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Apparently the confusion here is that there is an 4-5 terminal buss bar on the right side of the box labeled something like "120VAC HOT". I asked PD about this buss and was told that it was required for Canadian (CSA?) approval, that the incoming hot lead had to go there first, before going to the bottom feed on the main breaker. At least that's what they told me. It's not used in U.S. installations, but being there and being labeled is a bit confusing.
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Old 02-20-2015, 05:09 AM   #20
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Apparently the confusion here is that there is an 4-5 terminal buss bar on the right side of the box labeled something like "120VAC HOT". I asked PD about this buss and was told that it was required for Canadian (CSA?) approval, that the incoming hot lead had to go there first, before going to the bottom feed on the main breaker. At least that's what they told me. It's not used in U.S. installations, but being there and being labeled is a bit confusing.
The PD 4045 in my Trillium is different. There are only 2 branch breakers with the converter hot using one. There are two bus bars, ground and neutral. On this version they have added a third branch breaker, moved the neutral bus bar and added a hot bus bar. The converter hot apparently connects there. There is no indication that I can see in the online installation manual as to how the converter hot is protected. Either PD connects it to a breaker internally or a jumper is required. Wiring it as they suggested ("that the incoming hot lead had to go there first, before going to the bottom feed on the main breaker") would leave it unprotected. Raz
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Old 02-20-2015, 10:32 AM   #21
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P. Raz... Your PD-4045 diagram looks the same as all of the PD-4045's I have installed. The wiring shown is "Suggested" wiring and there is room for 4 breakers in all units for a total of 7 or 8 circuits depending on how it is installed. That little 4 screw buss isn't connected to anything the way it shown without the 2nd and subsequent breakers installed and the Black lead is only connected to bottom feed the main breaker to the empty AC buss. In short, as shown it doesn't do anything.


As a WAG, one could connect a 2nd (all AC loads) breaker to the buss labeled 120 HOT and connect the individual AC load wires there, rather than multiple wires to the bottom of the breaker? This makes a lot of sense if you only have 1 or 2 outlets.


As mentioned earlier, PD indicated to me that the extra buss bar was to comply with CSA requirements.
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Old 02-20-2015, 10:42 AM   #22
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The NEC is the bare minimum and being code compliant will insure safety .
That being said ,the NEC states that it is NOT a design manual and that an installation that is code compliant may not be adequate for the intended purpose.
I often made installations that surpassed code requirements because they were best practice. After many years in the trade you learn which methods of installation lead to fewer call backs or issues in the future . I would install a main breaker in a trailer panel ,even if it was not required by the code because it is safer and best practice. Not understanding a code article or why it was written with a certain wording does not make the code article wrong or irrelevant.
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Old 02-20-2015, 02:37 PM   #23
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P. Raz... Your PD-4045 diagram looks the same as all of the PD-4045's I have installed. The wiring shown is "Suggested" wiring and there is room for 4 breakers in all units for a total of 7 or 8 circuits depending on how it is installed.
The diagram is right from the PD web site. My unit only has 3 breakers and no AC bus.



Quote:
That little 4 screw buss isn't connected to anything the way it shown without the 2nd and subsequent breakers installed and the Black lead is only connected to bottom feed the main breaker to the empty AC buss. In short, as shown it doesn't do anything.
The diagram indicates the converter hot should be connected there.??? Again, how is the converter protected??? Mine is wired right to a breaker.
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Old 02-20-2015, 04:46 PM   #24
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It appears to me that the line side ( hot) conductor of the the service entrance cord ( black) is terminated on the load terminal of the main breaker . The buss which feeds the branch circuit breakers is backfed through the main breaker.
The retaining clip which is required when back feeding a circuit breaker is shown in the upper left corner. The panel in a trailer is considered a sub panel and requires a separate buss bar for the grounded conductors ( neutrals) (white) and a separate buss bar for the equipment grounding conductors ( green or bare ).
The neutral conductors and the equipment grounds must not be interconnected at a sub panel. The neutral is considered a current carrying conductor ,the equipment ground only conducts current under a fault condition. The neutrals and grounding conductors can only be interconnected at the main service entrance.
(The panel in a trailer is NOT a main service entrance)
The wiring diagram appears to me to be correct and code compliant. Again the main breaker is not supplied because PD has no idea what the size of the service cord conductors are . They could be #14 or #12 or #10 or #8
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Old 02-20-2015, 04:59 PM   #25
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3rd Try....

Quote:
Originally Posted by P. Raz View Post
The diagram is right from the PD web site. My unit only has 3 breakers and no AC bus.

The diagram indicates the converter hot should be connected there.??? Again, how is the converter protected??? Mine is wired right to a breaker.

OK, I do remember PD mentioning to me that the extra buss bar was added for CSA compliance, suggesting that it may not be found in earlier units. Are you also saying that the breaker mounting frame has room for only 3 breakers, 1 main and two load breakers? Of course duplex breakers can expand that to a main + 4 load circuits. I would suggest, unless you have an air conditioner, that a 20 amp main, a 10/15 split for the converter and 1 load and a duplex 15/15 for the other breaker. And yes, that's a little on the conservative side.

As far as the little buss bar, It doesn't really appear to have a use unless there is something about CSA that requires using one.

Sooo... acknowledging that there must be an early and late version, is there still a question about your PD4045 and how it's installed?
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Old 02-20-2015, 05:00 PM   #26
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Originally Posted by steve dunham View Post
It appears to me that the line side ( hot) conductor of the the service entrance cord ( black) is terminated on the load terminal of the main breaker . The buss which feeds the branch circuit breakers is backfed through the main breaker.
The retaining clip which is required when back feeding a circuit breaker is shown in the upper left corner. The panel in a trailer is considered a sub panel and requires a separate buss bar for the grounded conductors ( neutrals) (white) and a separate buss bar for the equipment grounding conductors ( green or bare ).
The neutral conductors and the equipment grounds must not be interconnected at a sub panel. The neutral is considered a current carrying conductor ,the equipment ground only conducts current under a fault condition. The neutrals and grounding conductors can only be interconnected at the main service entrance.
(The panel in a trailer is NOT a main service entrance)
The wiring diagram appears to me to be correct and code compliant. Again the main breaker is not supplied because PD has no idea what the size of the service cord conductors are . They could be #14 or #12 or #10 or #8
My question is: what is the 4 screw vertical bus on the right connected to. Since the converter circuitry is to be connected to it, it must be protected. In the older design they simply used a breaker to protect the converter. Raz
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Old 02-20-2015, 05:28 PM   #27
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RAZ ,it appears to me you need to install a branch circuit breaker on the buss.
Then run a conductor from the load side of the breaker to the 4 hole buss on the right side . This would supply power to the AC side of the converter . Why they did not install a 15 amp breaker to feed the converter at the factory is a mystery to me.
Leaving the feed wire for the converter just coiled up in the panel may have been more confusing.!
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Old 02-20-2015, 05:37 PM   #28
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The wire shown running from the converter to the small buss bar is a broken line, suggesting that is one way to connect it, it does not have to be wired that way. But if you did, you would also have to energize that buss bar yourself by installing a load breaker and connecting that to the small buss as well. As shown, that bar is DEAD.


Connecting the converter power IN to it's own breaker on the main buss is the usual and customary of installing them. I have installed at least 7 and never used that small buss.
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