phantom battery draw question

[Bob Miller]

P. Raz... Your PD-4045 diagram looks the same as all of the PD-4045's I have installed. The wiring shown is "Suggested" wiring and there is room for 4 breakers in all units for a total of 7 or 8 circuits depending on how it is installed. That little 4 screw buss isn't connected to anything the way it shown without the 2nd and subsequent breakers installed and the Black lead is only connected to bottom feed the main breaker to the empty AC buss. In short, as shown it doesn't do anything.


As a WAG, one could connect a 2nd (all AC loads) breaker to the buss labeled 120 HOT and connect the individual AC load wires there, rather than multiple wires to the bottom of the breaker? This makes a lot of sense if you only have 1 or 2 outlets.


As mentioned earlier, PD indicated to me that the extra buss bar was to comply with CSA requirements.

[steve dunham]

The NEC is the bare minimum and being code compliant will insure safety .
That being said ,the NEC states that it is NOT a design manual and that an installation that is code compliant may not be adequate for the intended purpose.
I often made installations that surpassed code requirements because they were best practice. After many years in the trade you learn which methods of installation lead to fewer call backs or issues in the future . I would install a main breaker in a trailer panel ,even if it was not required by the code because it is safer and best practice. Not understanding a code article or why it was written with a certain wording does not make the code article wrong or irrelevant.

[Raz]

Originally Posted by Bob Miller

P. Raz... Your PD-4045 diagram looks the same as all of the PD-4045's I have installed. The wiring shown is "Suggested" wiring and there is room for 4 breakers in all units for a total of 7 or 8 circuits depending on how it is installed.

The diagram is right from the PD web site. My unit only has 3 breakers and no AC bus.

That little 4 screw buss isn't connected to anything the way it shown without the 2nd and subsequent breakers installed and the Black lead is only connected to bottom feed the main breaker to the empty AC buss. In short, as shown it doesn't do anything.

The diagram indicates the converter hot should be connected there.??? Again, how is the converter protected??? Mine is wired right to a breaker.

[steve dunham]

It appears to me that the line side ( hot) conductor of the the service entrance cord ( black) is terminated on the load terminal of the main breaker . The buss which feeds the branch circuit breakers is backfed through the main breaker.
The retaining clip which is required when back feeding a circuit breaker is shown in the upper left corner. The panel in a trailer is considered a sub panel and requires a separate buss bar for the grounded conductors ( neutrals) (white) and a separate buss bar for the equipment grounding conductors ( green or bare ).
The neutral conductors and the equipment grounds must not be interconnected at a sub panel. The neutral is considered a current carrying conductor ,the equipment ground only conducts current under a fault condition. The neutrals and grounding conductors can only be interconnected at the main service entrance.
(The panel in a trailer is NOT a main service entrance)
The wiring diagram appears to me to be correct and code compliant. Again the main breaker is not supplied because PD has no idea what the size of the service cord conductors are . They could be #14 or #12 or #10 or #8

[Bob Miller]

Originally Posted by P. Raz

The diagram is right from the PD web site. My unit only has 3 breakers and no AC bus.

The diagram indicates the converter hot should be connected there.??? Again, how is the converter protected??? Mine is wired right to a breaker.

OK, I do remember PD mentioning to me that the extra buss bar was added for CSA compliance, suggesting that it may not be found in earlier units. Are you also saying that the breaker mounting frame has room for only 3 breakers, 1 main and two load breakers? Of course duplex breakers can expand that to a main + 4 load circuits. I would suggest, unless you have an air conditioner, that a 20 amp main, a 10/15 split for the converter and 1 load and a duplex 15/15 for the other breaker. And yes, that's a little on the conservative side.

As far as the little buss bar, It doesn't really appear to have a use unless there is something about CSA that requires using one.

Sooo... acknowledging that there must be an early and late version, is there still a question about your PD4045 and how it's installed?

[Raz]

Originally Posted by steve dunham

It appears to me that the line side ( hot) conductor of the the service entrance cord ( black) is terminated on the load terminal of the main breaker . The buss which feeds the branch circuit breakers is backfed through the main breaker.
The retaining clip which is required when back feeding a circuit breaker is shown in the upper left corner. The panel in a trailer is considered a sub panel and requires a separate buss bar for the grounded conductors ( neutrals) (white) and a separate buss bar for the equipment grounding conductors ( green or bare ).
The neutral conductors and the equipment grounds must not be interconnected at a sub panel. The neutral is considered a current carrying conductor ,the equipment ground only conducts current under a fault condition. The neutrals and grounding conductors can only be interconnected at the main service entrance.
(The panel in a trailer is NOT a main service entrance)
The wiring diagram appears to me to be correct and code compliant. Again the main breaker is not supplied because PD has no idea what the size of the service cord conductors are . They could be #14 or #12 or #10 or #8

My question is: what is the 4 screw vertical bus on the right connected to. Since the converter circuitry is to be connected to it, it must be protected. In the older design they simply used a breaker to protect the converter. Raz

[steve dunham]

RAZ ,it appears to me you need to install a branch circuit breaker on the buss.
Then run a conductor from the load side of the breaker to the 4 hole buss on the right side . This would supply power to the AC side of the converter . Why they did not install a 15 amp breaker to feed the converter at the factory is a mystery to me.
Leaving the feed wire for the converter just coiled up in the panel may have been more confusing.!

[Bob Miller]

The wire shown running from the converter to the small buss bar is a broken line, suggesting that is one way to connect it, it does not have to be wired that way. But if you did, you would also have to energize that buss bar yourself by installing a load breaker and connecting that to the small buss as well. As shown, that bar is DEAD.


Connecting the converter power IN to it's own breaker on the main buss is the usual and customary of installing them. I have installed at least 7 and never used that small buss.

[Raz]

Originally Posted by steve dunham

RAZ ,it appears to me you need to install a branch circuit breaker on the buss.
Then run a conductor from the load side of the breaker to the 4 hole buss on the right side . This would supply power to the AC side of the converter . Why they did not install a 15 amp breaker to feed the converter at the factory is a mystery to me

Just to set things strait my converter is fine.

Suz asked the question in post 12.

Bob commented:Apparently the confusion here is that there is an 4-5 terminal buss bar on the right side of the box labeled something like "120VAC HOT". I asked PD about this buss and was told that it was required for Canadian (CSA?) approval, that the incoming hot lead had to go there first, before going to the bottom feed on the main breaker. At least that's what they told me. It's not used in U.S. installations, but being there and being labeled is a bit confusing..
I responded to him.

As I said earlier, PD's instructions are a little brief.

[steve dunham]

Originally Posted by Bob Miller

The wire shown running from the converter to the small buss bar is a broken line, suggesting that is one way to connect it, it does not have to be wired that way. But if you did, you would also have to energize that buss bar yourself by installing a load breaker and connecting that to the small buss as well. As shown, that bar is DEAD.


Connecting the converter power IN to it's own breaker on the main buss is the usual and customary of installing them. I have installed at least 7 and never used that small buss.

If it was me ,I would connect the AC wire from the converter directly to the load terminal of a 15 amp breaker and just leave the small 4 hole buss on the right side dead. The only advantage I see in terminatin the incoming line conductor at the 4 hole buss is that you could disconnect the hot wire that feeds the main breaker at the buss .What you gain by this arrangement is not clear to me

[KarlB]

Ok I also have a question about PD4045 converter. In my case I do not have a 120 V HOT bus bar. I’ll only use 12 v ( empty slot)

Still I’m not sure how to hook up my converter. The wiring diagram is not clear.
I’ll put is the CB 15amp
Connect hot wire from converter to CB 15amps
Where will shore hot wire go??? To the bus bar at the bottom. ( with the two screws)
The diagram has both main ac hot AND converter connected to the same bus bar.

To me the CB has no purpose if connected this way.

It should be simple but it is certainly confusing to read the wiring diagram.
Pleas help me with this.
Thanks

[Carl V]

You need one breaker, 15 or 30 amps depending, that will act as you main breaker. You insert this breaker in one of the slots like the others, and the hot from the shore is connected to this breaker, which actually "back feeds" the hot bus and the other breakers. Then you can add other breakers as required for the various AC branches your trailer has, including one to feed the converter section.

If you still have your original power cord your main breaker should be 15A. If you wish to upgrade your trailer to 30A service you need to upgrade the power cord to a 30A-rated one, then you can safely use a 30A breaker as your main.

[KarlB]

Thanks for the clarification Carl V!
So in actuality. Without any other 110 needs I will have TWO circuit breaker to protect the converter circuitry.
First one for shore power and second for the converter.
Really leaving room for only two more for the rv 110 needs ...
Or... one more breaker energizing the 120 V hot bar ( not supplied in my case).
So outside power protection with 15amp breaker feeding converter 15 amp breaker. I see.
Karl B.

[John in Santa Cruz]

you hook your shore power up to the AC IN hot (black) and neutral (white) and ground (green), comes right in the middle there on the right half of your diagram, via the hole in the back (be sure to use a suitable strain clamp for the romex or whatever you use)

the breaker shown in the image is the main breaker on the shore power.
you need a 2nd breaker next to it for the converter power, then each A/C load circuit you connect gets its own breaker, looks like there's room for two more breakers... one would probably be for A/C, and the other would go to all the other 120V outlets in the camper.

[Carl V]

The PD4045 can accommodate up to 7 breakers, depending on the breaker type you use.
One would be your main, one for the converter section, and the remaining 5 for the various AC branches of your trailer. On a T1300 this may be only one (or may be none in your case, but personally I would at least install one or two AC outlets even if I don't use them much. They may be useful, and think about resale value).

Some breakers are "half size" (not sure what they are called) they are thinner and take up half the space of a regular breaker. You need to use this type of breaker if you need to install 7 of them in your converter. If you only need 2 or 3 then the larger ones will fit. Look up the installation sheet, they list the compatible breakers. In my area, not all the hardware stores carried all the brands and models listed, I had to shop around.

[John in Santa Cruz]

instead of generic hardware stores, I suggest looking for the local electrical wholesaler. in my middlin' sized town, its in the back of a lighting store ("Riverside Lighting & Electric"). I avoid the big chain HW stores like the plague, they sell cheap junk.