Possible Converter Problem? Help Please!!!

[Jared J]

What is the actual problem? Is the battery not charging up, not staying charged, or what? I might have missed it, but I don't see what problem you're trying to solve.

[accrete]

Hi Jared, basically i'm thinking the PD4045 is not putting out enough AH to properly bring a partially depleted (down ~30%) dual AGM optima battery bank back up to 100%.

I just checked the XANTREX monitor and it is showing the PD4045 is now putting out the "Float" voltage of 13.2v and 0.1AH. So my calculations are that the converter put back in ~5AH @13.6v into the 110AH-bank during the first night plugged into service which was down about 30AH total and is now thinking the battery bank is "Charged". Something is amis IMO. And i would have never known really had i not began monitoring the relatively new (March 2013) batteries.

In the past when observing a dedicated smart charger (which is what the PD4045 has) i would see ~10 amps @~14v for several hours and then a step down to the float rate at ~1amp/~13v with daily spikes up to ~15v to de-sulfate.

Thom

[Thomas G.]

Originally Posted by accrete

Hi Jared, basically i'm thinking the PD4045 is not putting out enough AH to properly bring a partially depleted (down ~30%) dual AGM optima battery bank back up to 100%. .........
Thom

I agree that something is not right. Either the battery is more charged than you think, or the converter is not charging at an appropriate rate or you have a metering error. You could double check all of these with a multimeter - battery voltage, current input to the battery, etc.

[accrete]

Originally Posted by Thomas G.

I agree that something is not right...You could double check all of these with a multimeter - battery voltage, current input to the battery, etc.

Well i've done just that at this point.
Today after the trailer had been unplugged for over 24 hours i checked the two batteries' voltage. They were both showing 12.9 volts (hand held VOM on posts) and the Xantrex was showing 13.0 volts (on common + bus-bar). I checked voltage on PD4045 and it was a measured 13.2 volts two days ago before i unplugged from the 30 amp service. During the 3 months of active use i have never seen a voltage higher than 13.6 volts & 1.3 amps being delivered from the PD4045 to the batteries.

After going over (once again) all manuals (Optima batteries & PD4045) and discussing what i had seen/measured with both optima and progressive dynamics i have come to the conclusion (with their assistance) that the PD4045 is not set up to properly (fully) charge Optima Blue Top batteries. These batteries are looking for a minimum of 13.8 volts during normal charge with a max 10amps, and then dropping to 13.2v and 1amp during "float". The PD4045 is incapable of sending out more than 13.6 volts during normal charge, and sends out 13.2v during float, but at a very low rate ~0.1 amp. This rate is to low to properly maintain Optima Blue Top batteries for maximum life/health according to Optima techs and the Optima BT specs.

SOooooo, i have an Optima 1200 digital charger on order that i will hook up to the common bus which is connected to individual 60amp fuses and then to each D34M battery.

Once hooked up i will report back.

thom

(at this point in the project i have decided to also post this information over at my Parkliner build thread as it is IMO pertinent information for current and future PL owners)

[Byron Kinnaman]

Originally Posted by floyd

I don't know if Casita does this or not, but Scamp has an in-line fuse coming from the battery which, if blown, will yield the symtoms described, Also check the voltage at the battery and check for a broken or corroded connection at the battery.
While you are at it check to be sure that your converter is plugged in or receiving shore power.If not, you could have just run you battery down not knowing that the converter was off line.

Did you look for and find this fuse that Floyd mentioned? If not maybe you should.

[Raz]

Originally Posted by accrete

After going over (once again) all manuals (Optima batteries & PD4045) and discussing what i had seen/measured with both optima and progressive dynamics i have come to the conclusion (with their assistance) that the PD4045 is not set up to properly (fully) charge Optima Blue Top batteries. These batteries are looking for a minimum of 13.8 volts during normal charge with a max 10amps, and then dropping to 13.2v and 1amp during "float". The PD4045 is incapable of sending out more than 13.6 volts during normal charge, and sends out 13.2v during float, but at a very low rate ~0.1 amp.

For what it's worth I am also using an AGM battery, a Lifeline. As i mentioned earlier, when the battery is low, say 12.3 volts, my charger (PD 4045) will get to 14.4 volts then drop to 13.6 V. after a while. It floats at 13.2 V. Also, 12.9V. is what my battery would show when fully charged when it was new (charger disconnected). After 7 years it's down to 12.7V. at full charge.

One other thought, 20 AHr is not much on 2 parallel AGM batteries (150 AHr capacity?). What is the battery voltage down to prior to charging? Raz

[accrete]

Originally Posted by Byron Kinnaman

Did you look for and find this fuse that Floyd mentioned? If not maybe you should.

Greetings,

When checking the system in our Parkliner there is no "in line" fuse to/from batteries as sent from the factory. The two PD4045 "Reverse battery blown" fuses are fine and the charger is putting out power to the batteries/system. On fuses between batteries and PL, there are now individual 60amp fuses between each battery and the positive-bus-bar where the converter/charger/meter is...these fuses were installed (& bar) by the recommendation of marine & rv technicians when they were brought up to speed on the stock PL system.

Originally Posted by P. Raz

...(Raz mentioned various voltages at different stages)...
One other thought, 20 AHr is not much on 2 parallel AGM batteries (150 AHr capacity?). What is the battery voltage down to prior to charging? Raz

Thx for the voltage info. The lowest i've seen the battery voltage (our two 55AH Optima D34M = 110AH total) has been 12.5volts. PD4045 showed 13.6v in this case for about 5 hours sending 1 to 1.3 amps then switching to 13.2v at 0.1 AH. Both of these numbers are to low to properly maintain my particular AGM batteries per Optima dealers (they were not suggesting i buy anything from their dealerships, just verifying the needs of the D34M batteries).

Thom

A Post Script note: I called and spoke to another PD tech this morning... his suggestion was to block the fan for ~10 minutes or so and said this should force the unit into "Boost Mode"... so far... 100!! minutes of fan being blocked and unit is still relatively cool (a slight warmth to touch on outside upper rear of case that fan is housed in) and showing unit is putting out the float charge of 13.2v at 0.1AH. He also stated that if charger is dropping from the _normal_ charging stage to _float_ stage (which it is) it appears to be working, but dosn't know why it would not go into Boost Mode when plugged in after dropping the 25% to 30% that bank is after being off grid like we are for our trips.

[Raz]

Originally Posted by accrete

Thx for the voltage info. The lowest i've seen the battery voltage (our two 55AH Optima D34M = 110AH total) has been 12.5volts. PD4045 showed 13.6v in this case for about 5 hours sending 1 to 1.3 amps then switching to 13.2v at 0.1 AH. Both of these numbers are to low to properly maintain my particular AGM batteries per Optima dealers (they were not suggesting i buy anything from their dealerships, just verifying the needs of the D34M batteries).

Thom

If your battery was down to 12.5 volts, the charger should go into boost mode. Just to verify, I would disconnect one battery, run your fan, ect. to discharge the connected battery. At 12.5 volts plug in the charger and measure the voltage. If it doesn't reach 14 + volts in 1/2 an hour I would contact PD.

One possibility worth investigating. In a previous thread someone mentioned that these chargers can be set up to charge gel cells. There is nothing in my manual about this but if it is true the boost cycle would be eliminated as gel cells can not tolerate that high a charge voltage. Just a thought. Finally if the PD 4045 will charge my AGM it will charge yours.

[accrete]

Originally Posted by P. Raz

...I would disconnect one battery, run your fan, ect. to discharge the connected battery...

Greetings Raz...that sounds like a fun little test. Might do that on my next day off. thx : )

PS note...just for giggles i went out and turned on 4 of the LED light fixtures (i removed all covers in case there was any heat build up overnight) and will run them for 12 hours (i will check before heading to the office tomorrow at ~0530)...that is another ~13 amps being drawn out of bank during that time... At that point i will check the voltage. If it has hit ~12.5 or less i will plug in the PD4045 and monitor. Who knows??

Originally Posted by P. Raz

...There is nothing in my manual about this...

Mine neither, and the two PD techs made no mention of this as an option to check.

Thom

[accrete]

(This was also posted over at my Parkliner #35 build thread for documentation/archive use.)

I have just completed a two hour test of the PD4045 in my Parkliner #35 as suggested by Raz (thx again!). It was a fun quiet time with my kindle paperwhite and a good read out in the PL on an overcast mid-60's Oregon coast day : )

I took notes each 15 minutes on what the readout on the Xantrex LinkLite, Bus-Bar-Meter (the PD4045 is connected directly to the Bus-Bar also), and handheld VOM off each battery. My findings in summary were the PD4045 sent out ~13.5volts at an average of ~6amp over the two hours with a beginning battery voltage of 12.45 volts before hooking up the PD4045 to our 30amp service. The max voltage was 13.52 volts and max amperage for first 15 minutes was 8.2 amps. Here is a listing of each 15 minute reading:

Time..........Bus-Bar..........Xantrex..........VOM..........AMPS
0000..........13.4................13.5............ .13.45..........8.2
0015..........13.4................13.5............ .13.46..........7.6
0030..........13.4................13.5............ .13.46..........6.9
0045..........13.4................13.5............ .13.47..........6.3
0060..........13.5................13.5............ .13.48..........5.9
0075..........13.5................13.5............ .13.49..........5.2
0090..........13.5................13.5............ .13.50..........4.6
0105..........13.5................13.5............ .13.51..........4.1
0120..........13.5................13.5............ .13.52..........3.7

I ended the test at this point as it was twice the allotted time that Raz suggested that the PD4045 should go into "Boost Mode" and show 14.4 volts. Obviously this never occurred. Though, in discussing the unit with PD techs over the phone last week and running some suggested tests with them in the loop the unit was said to be working according to specs. So as i've stated, i really don't know what is up at this point, nor actually do i care since as stated i will be using the 12volt DC side of the system and not the 120vAC side so having the PD converter hooked up is a non issue since we use the rig off grid and what i'm after (and always have been) is simply to keep the battery bank healthy. If that means a high quality stand alone charger (such as the Optima arriving next week) so be it. Nothing lost, yet good knowledge gained in the experiment.

I will post the results of the test with the Optima charger once installed. I will draw the bank down to the same starting level and take readings at 15 minute intervals for two hours to compare and then also post as to when bank is (i hope!) topped off which has not happened yet with the PD4045.

Happy Trails! Our next adventure is in another three weeks so this is all good timing and rig will be ready to go with a full battery bank! Yippie.

Thom

(a PS note in this post only...in context of this thread...Many thanks to all who sent ideas and suggestions. MUCH appreciated!..this is still a work in progress...as am i : )

[Byron Kinnaman]

Originally Posted by accrete

(This was also posted over at my Parkliner #35 build thread for documentation/archive use.)

I have just completed a two hour test of the PD4045 in my Parkliner #35 as suggested by Raz (thx again!). It was a fun quiet time with my kindle paperwhite and a good read out in the PL on an overcast mid-60's Oregon coast day : )

I took notes each 15 minutes on what the readout on the Xantrex LinkLite, Bus-Bar-Meter (the PD4045 is connected directly to the Bus-Bar also), and handheld VOM off each battery. My findings in summary were the PD4045 sent out ~13.5volts at an average of ~6amp over the two hours with a beginning battery voltage of 12.45 volts before hooking up the PD4045 to our 30amp service. The max voltage was 13.52 volts and max amperage for first 15 minutes was 8.2 amps. Here is a listing of each 15 minute reading:

Time..........Bus-Bar..........Xantrex..........VOM..........AMPS
0000..........13.4................13.5............ .13.45..........8.2
0015..........13.4................13.5............ .13.46..........7.6
0030..........13.4................13.5............ .13.46..........6.9
0045..........13.4................13.5............ .13.47..........6.3
0060..........13.5................13.5............ .13.48..........5.9
0075..........13.5................13.5............ .13.49..........5.2
0090..........13.5................13.5............ .13.50..........4.6
0105..........13.5................13.5............ .13.51..........4.1
0120..........13.5................13.5............ .13.52..........3.7

I ended the test at this point as it was twice the allotted time that Raz suggested that the PD4045 should go into "Boost Mode" and show 14.4 volts. Obviously this never occurred. Though, in discussing the unit with PD techs over the phone last week and running some suggested tests with them in the loop the unit was said to be working according to specs. So as i've stated, i really don't know what is up at this point, nor actually do i care since as stated i will be using the 12volt DC side of the system and not the 120vAC side so having the PD converter hooked up is a non issue since we use the rig off grid and what i'm after (and always have been) is simply to keep the battery bank healthy. If that means a high quality stand alone charger (such as the Optima arriving next week) so be it. Nothing lost, yet good knowledge gained in the experiment.

I will post the results of the test with the Optima charger once installed. I will draw the bank down to the same starting level and take readings at 15 minute intervals for two hours to compare and then also post as to when bank is (i hope!) topped off which has not happened yet with the PD4045.

Happy Trails! Our next adventure is in another three weeks so this is all good timing and rig will be ready to go with a full battery bank! Yippie.

Thom

(a PS note in this post only...in context of this thread...Many thanks to all who sent ideas and suggestions. MUCH appreciated!..this is still a work in progress...as am i : )

Your chart is about what I would expect. The closer to full charge the battery gets the lower the current the battery will take. Depending on how the charger/converter is designed it might take a very long time to get a much higher charge. It appears to me everything is working as designed.

[Raz]

Obviously no boost there. I wonder if your ammeter shunt is interfering? I guess I'd contact PD at this point and see what they say about your test results. Raz

[accrete]

For any traveling through and wish to see my solution for my PD4045 issue i have a short write up on the install i did of an Optima 1200 digital charger in Parkliner #35 at this post_LINK.



Summary...the Optima charger delivered as pointed out in user manual for a ~1/2 depleted battery bank... started out at the voltage of bank (12.5v) and over the next 5 minutes was sending out 13.8 volts. By the third hour it was at 14.4 volts and 4 amps (having a max amp reading of 11.2 amps early in the test).

Overall i'm pleased with how the unit installed in our rig and will of course update as time goes on.

Happy Trails!
Thom