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01-12-2018, 03:34 PM
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#1
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Senior Member
Name: John
Trailer: Escape 21, behind an '02 F250 7.3 diesel tug
Mid Left Coast
Posts: 2,940
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Solar charging vs converter vs tow vehicle
Being from an electronics background, the idea of 2 charging systems connected to the same battery bothers me... in particular solar + ac charge controller, or solar + tow vehicle alternator... I would expect these two power sources to fight as each has their own idea of a 3 stage charging algorithm...
the DC converter people don't make any mention of solar... and the RV solar controllers barely mention AC powered converters, or tow vehicle alternators.
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01-12-2018, 04:16 PM
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#2
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Senior Member
Trailer: 1990 Scamp 16 ft
Posts: 654
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Yeah, I wondered about my solar panel and tow alternator both trying to push electrons into my battery at the same time. But after three years and 30,000 miles they seem to play together well. I don't even need to add water very often, about once per year. I suspect the solar charge controller will taper off its charge as the battery fills, probably the tow's alternator has a controller too and does the same. The battery never gets very low anyway. 12.4 is the usual low voltage unless we are parked for several cloudy days. Could be one sees the charging current coming from the other and just shuts off. Quien Sabe?
John
Pic of DW under El Capitan in Yosemite Valley. Feb. 2015.
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01-12-2018, 04:48 PM
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#3
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Senior Member
Trailer: Trillium 2010
Posts: 5,185
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Quote:
Originally Posted by John in Santa Cruz
Being from an electronics background, the idea of 2 charging systems connected to the same battery bothers me... in particular solar + ac charge controller, or solar + tow vehicle alternator... I would expect these two power sources to fight as each has their own idea of a 3 stage charging algorithm...
the DC converter people don't make any mention of solar... and the RV solar controllers barely mention AC powered converters, or tow vehicle alternators.
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John, there are folks here that will tell you it's fine. I'm not one of them. Twenty five years teaching at the tech school I saw a lot of power supplies cooked . But then students will be students . Besides we had a tech to put the pieces back together. I suspect most connections will not destroy anything but unwanted oscillation might be an issue. If you wish to tie everything together you could make an OR gate with diodes to isolate the sources. Bad for the output impedance but solves the isolation issue. My solar is attached with gator clips. My charge line has a factory relay. That's my solution. Lots of folks have permanently wired solar. I don't recall problems reported when they plug in to shore power but if it was singing like a bird they might not notice. Hope that helps. Raz
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01-12-2018, 05:14 PM
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#4
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Senior Member
Name: Dave W
Trailer: Trillium 4500 - 1976, 1978, 1979, 1300 - 1977, and a 1973
Alberta
Posts: 6,926
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Raz
If you wish to tie everything together you could make an OR gate with diodes to isolate the sources. Bad for the output impedance but solves the isolation issue.
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It takes 0.7 VDC to forward bias a diode. That would mean that if the solar controller was outputting 14.4 VDC, to charge the battery, then the battery would only see 13.7 VDC. I am no battery expert, but I have to think that at the very least, the battery is going to charge much more slowly. Possibly not completely either.
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01-12-2018, 05:24 PM
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#5
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Senior Member
Trailer: Trillium 2010
Posts: 5,185
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Quote:
Originally Posted by David Tilston
It takes 0.7 VDC to forward bias a diode. That would mean that if the solar controller was outputting 14.4 VDC, to charge the battery, then the battery would only see 13.7 VDC. I am no battery expert, but I have to think that at the very least, the battery is going to charge much more slowly. Possibly not completely either.
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You could use germanium diodes. Or better yet, schottky diodes. In all seriousness, I don't think it's a big issue.
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01-12-2018, 05:33 PM
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#6
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Senior Member
Name: Tony
Trailer: Bigfoot
Alberta
Posts: 177
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Virtually every motorized RV today puts out 14.5 volts to charge the chassis and house banks. If the engine is running the alternator is managing the output.
Almost every solar controller cuts off at about 14.5 volts also. Some of the better ones are adjustable but the vast majority of non adjustable controllers cut out at 14.5 volts.
Charge converters can indeed charge as three stage bulk, absorb and float. But most cut out around 13.6 however some can go higher.
The magic number for a battery bank, charge converter, solar controller and battery bank such as two, six volt GC2’s in a bank is 13.6.
Almost every OEM I know of, wires their coaches to charge the battery bank off all three charge sources at the same time.
I have seen some folks recently who connect their solar panel to their battery bank without a regulator. That arrangement can lead to overcharging for sure.
__________________
2017 Bigfoot 25B25FB
2017 F-150 2.7 EB
Full Time RV Living
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01-12-2018, 10:32 PM
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#7
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Senior Member
Name: John
Trailer: Escape 21, behind an '02 F250 7.3 diesel tug
Mid Left Coast
Posts: 2,940
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both the PWM solar controller (a 2014 vintage GoPower 30A PWM) and the WFCO dc converter in my escape are 4-stage chargers, they put out around 14.4V to bulk charge, then 13.8V or whatever for the absorption phase, then 13.2V for maintenance.
the alternator in my Tacoma seems to have a 3 stage regulator too, as I've seen 14.4V a few minutes after starting it, then after its been running awhile, 13.8V
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01-13-2018, 01:27 AM
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#8
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Senior Member
Name: Robert
Trailer: 2015 Escape 19 "Past Tents" 2018 F150 Lariat 2.7L EB SuperCrew
Arkansas
Posts: 1,298
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Quote:
Originally Posted by John in Santa Cruz
both the PWM solar controller (a 2014 vintage GoPower 30A PWM) and the WFCO dc converter in my escape are 4-stage chargers, they put out around 14.4V to bulk charge, then 13.8V or whatever for the absorption phase, then 13.2V for maintenance.
the alternator in my Tacoma seems to have a 3 stage regulator too, as I've seen 14.4V a few minutes after starting it, then after its been running awhile, 13.8V
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Your GoPower solar charge controller is a 4 stage charger, but I can assure you the charger in the WFCO 8955 is not. The WFCO doesn't have an equalization/desulfation cycle.
__________________
"You can't buy happiness, but you can buy an RV. And that is pretty close."
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01-13-2018, 09:02 AM
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#9
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Senior Member
Name: Tony
Trailer: Bigfoot
Alberta
Posts: 177
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I pull WFCO products out of units every day and put in the trash. Hundreds.
I use Progressive Dynamics converter chargers and if you get the 9200 series they are a true three stage unit. As long as they have the charge wizard installed. Very good products.
Solar is changing a lot these days. From PWM to MPPT is a big change.
It would be interesting to know if a vehicles alternator was three stage. I’ve always believed that an alternator will put out as much as the battery or load can take. The lower a battery’s state of charge will allow a higher charge from the alternator from what I have always known.
Time to do more research!
__________________
2017 Bigfoot 25B25FB
2017 F-150 2.7 EB
Full Time RV Living
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01-13-2018, 12:46 PM
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#10
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Senior Member
Name: John
Trailer: Escape 21, behind an '02 F250 7.3 diesel tug
Mid Left Coast
Posts: 2,940
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ah, the wfco 8955 is a 3-stage, not 4-stage.
and yeah, older cars, the regulators on the alternators just limit the voltage to 13.8 or so and dump as much current in as they can. the one on my 2008 tacoma seems to be a little fancier than that, but I'd need to drive around with a voltage monitor to actually confirm that.
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01-13-2018, 01:18 PM
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#11
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Senior Member
Name: Jon
Trailer: Escape 21C
New York
Posts: 2,387
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I have had no problems with multiple charging sources - that includes on roof solar panels with a built in controller, a portable panel with its own controller, a vehicle charge wire, and a converter. Not all run at once (tow vehicle & converter would be interesting), but any time I'm in a campground with electrical hookups, the converter & solar are both active, and when driving, the tow vehicle charge line & roof top solar panels are active.
The only time I notices an interaction problem with the two solar systems was when the portable panel was in full sun & the rooftop panels were in partial sun. The roof panels & controller produced enough voltage that the inexpensive portable panel controller would not provide full output. This only happened once or twice in months of dry camping...
Before adding the capability of feeding the portable panel directly into the trailer controller, when dry camping, I sometimes ran both the roof panel & a portable, the only problem mentioned above.
Currently, I have a pair of 160 watt panels on the roof feeding a 4 stage GoPower controller, and a 160 watt portable panel that has the controller bypassed & is fed into the input of the GoPower controller.
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01-14-2018, 11:26 AM
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#12
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Senior Member
Name: Francois
Trailer: Bigfoot
British Columbia
Posts: 1,163
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agree with the OP....
I too was not sure if having the different charging systems connected together would have any adverse effects.....BUT I was sure that it was going to limit my ability to assess the effectiveness of each one separately. How would you tell???
I did not have 12V power coming from the TV from the start...so that was easy....and I still don't.
I don't have a converter anymore...12V power is fed from the batteries all the time. My charger is on it's own dedicated breaker so I can turn it on or off at will.
I have two rooftop panels (70W total) and one "deployable" (40W)....all three are wired to a single charge controller. I have an on/off switch between the panels and the controller.
My whole system is "MANUAL"....I can plug into shore power, have AC in the coach and NOT be charging the batteries...if I choose. If I leave the charger breaker on (which I do in most instances) when I plug in the charger starts up and does it's thing...if I am parked in full sun at the time I turn the panels off....or I could do the reverse if I wanted to (charger off, panels on)
it works for me... I like to think I get a lot of useful information this way....I'm a "happy camper"
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01-14-2018, 01:14 PM
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#13
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Senior Member
Name: Gordon
Trailer: 2015 Scamp (16 Std Layout 4) with '15 Toyota Sienna LE Tug
North Carolina
Posts: 5,155
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Franswa
I too was not sure if having the different charging systems connected together would have any adverse effects.....BUT I was sure that it was going to limit my ability to assess the effectiveness of each one separately. ...)
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Good point. My situation is similar. - On the road, the tug charges.
- On shore power converter charges, but it's on a breaker so can be shut off at anytime, such as in the case of....
- Off shore power or when I feel like getting free power, its a portable solar panel (which is also on a breaker and can be disconnected from inside the camper).
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01-14-2018, 11:28 PM
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#14
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Senior Member
Name: Doug
Trailer: Escape
California
Posts: 216
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I just put switches between panels & charge controller, and between charge controller & battery. When plugged into either tug or shore power, I switch off the solar panels.
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01-15-2018, 03:03 PM
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#15
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Junior Member
Name: Luke
Trailer: Casita
Oregon
Posts: 9
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I have a 100 and 50 watt panel on my casaita 17 ft, when traveling now the road I remove the 30 am fuse from its holder, charging my RV battery, no problems. Are their any casita out there with 2 RV batters, if so where do you keep the second one? Would love to know as I would like to add #2, thanks
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01-15-2018, 05:38 PM
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#16
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Senior Member
Name: John
Trailer: Escape 21, behind an '02 F250 7.3 diesel tug
Mid Left Coast
Posts: 2,940
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IF I went dual battery on the casita, I'd use AGM batteries, which while way more expensive, do not need venting, and I'd use a pair of 6V golf cart batteries, T105/GC2 sized, wired in series, this would give you around 230AH of 12V, I'd put these in a battery box between the aft benches under the bed, securely bolted/strapped down.
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01-28-2018, 01:34 AM
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#17
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Senior Member
Name: Michael
Trailer: Trail Cruiser
Alberta
Posts: 825
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I use all three but never together.
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06-30-2018, 09:59 PM
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#18
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Senior Member
Trailer: 1986 Boler 1300 Voyager
Posts: 723
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I use all three but separate them via switches.
Sent from my SM-G930V using Fiberglass RV mobile app
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06-30-2018, 11:04 PM
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#19
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Senior Member
Trailer: Scamp
Posts: 7,056
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There's some basic electronics going on. All three at once is hard to accomplish but 2 at a time is not. What you get with a discharged battery with two charging sources is a faster recharge, which is OK for flooded cell batteries. Once the battery voltage reaches the cut off point for one of the sources it will cut out. The other source will continue until the battery reaches it's cut off point.
For those that have some electronic background, a charging battery in simply a resistor that changes resistance as it get closer to fully charged.
__________________
Byron & Anne enjoying the everyday Saturday thing.
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07-01-2018, 05:50 AM
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#20
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Member
Name: Gene
Trailer: 1987 Scamp 19
Washington
Posts: 91
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If you are really concerned about it you could simply isolate the sources through a 4 position DC switch. It would be used in reverse of the way one would normally use it. Connect the common pole to the battery positive. Connect one charge source (solar controller output) to the first input of the switch. Connect the other two charging sources (AC converter and alternator charge wire) to the second switch input. Isolation between the converter and alternator is easy (unless you attempt to tow your trailer when it is still plugged into shore power 🤔 . Depending on switch positions you could select solar or converter-alternator or both for rapid charging. Just be sure you don't isolate your emergency brakes if you have them. And not to put too much current into your battery.
Or simply power down your convertor if you have solar panels in full sun. Lots of ways to accomplish your goal.
https://www.bluesea.com/products/900...Battery_Switch
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