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Old 11-06-2012, 08:48 AM   #21
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Wasn't there an "American Boler" in the mid70's? Seems like I have seen a few of them listed hereabouts. If that company let the copyright on the name expire it is up for grabs. J

Just look at all of the electronics that suddenly started sprouting old American names, Packard-Bell being one of the first at least 20 years ago, with off brand computers.

And (unfortunately) don't count China out of the RV picture. There is a molded fiberglass coachbuilder in China that is looking for partners worldwide to mount their mini-motorhme coach on locally built chassis. I was contacted because they thought that I would want to build new ones on a Toyota chassis. Never forget, China claims that copying ones ideas is the most sincere form of flattery.



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Old 11-06-2012, 08:57 AM   #22
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Wasn't there an "American Boler" in the mid70's?
.
Yes they were built for about eight months in the 1972 I believe. Somewhere here there is a history of all the names and places bolers where built.
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Old 11-06-2012, 12:50 PM   #23
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I believe that the other trailers using the Boler name in Canada or elsewhere were made under license to use the name or the design, etc. The issue here (as Francesca points out) is that this new entity has nothing to do with the original trailer but (despite the small print disclaimer) people may be mislead into believing that this unit is associated with the original Boler and its long standing reputation. Hence the disclaimers on the website.

My view (apart from the legal issues) is its a bit cheesy. The trailer looks great in the picture - why not give it a new and unique name to be proud of on its own, and avoid trading on the reputation of the original.

PS. Bob - I remember being very confused and then annoyed when those Packard Bell computers first came out. I first thought that they were a joint Hewlett Packard / Bell product and in those pre-www days, had to do much research to find out that there was no such association. Are they even still around?
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Old 11-06-2012, 01:49 PM   #24
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Read the Packard-Bell story on Wikipedia, and name reuse confusion makes sense from a business stand point. In the late 80's I converted an entire tech pubs department from typesetting to word processing with about a dozen P-B computers, for about 1/3 the cost of IBM hardware.
Packard Bell - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

That said, getting ones nose bent about name reuse is understandable, especially if the quality isn't there. But just think, those in the know will expect old Boler quality and, if it isn't there, American Boler will soon go the way of American Suzuki (it just announced BK today). And, if it's even better than the old ones, it will pull the value of older ones up and they will become known as "Classic Bolers". While, using a known brand is a shortcut to name recognition, it is risky at best.

As long as another egg builder is coming down the pike it is good news, regardless of the name on the front.

To digress, we just bought a new Dutchman built Coleman CTE-171 hybrid camping trailer for our children and grandkids to use. Now Thor owns Dutchman, and Dutchman makes exactly the same trailers with both Coleman and Kodiak color schemes & badges on them. But Thor/Dutchman sells 4 times more with the Coleman name & logo on them simply because of name recognition and, unless you ask, most buyers would never know that Coleman, as the old camping gear company we all grew up with, is long gone, replaced with several manufacturers and marketing companies that license that name.

Some may remember the Coleman pop-up trailers, but most were built under license by Fleetwood.
It's just business in the 21st century.



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Old 11-06-2012, 02:20 PM   #25
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The issue here (as Francesca points out) is that this new entity has nothing to do with the original trailer but (despite the small print disclaimer) people may be mislead into believing that this unit is associated with the original Boler and its long standing reputation.
Exactly...and in my opinion, intentionally.

Why else use the name?

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Old 11-06-2012, 03:05 PM   #26
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Why else use the name?
Name recognition/Marketing tool. As described in post #24 paragraph 2.
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Old 11-06-2012, 03:14 PM   #27
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob Miller View Post
Wasn't there an "American Boler" in the mid70's? Seems like I have seen a few of them listed hereabouts. If that company let the copyright on the name expire it is up for grabs.
The original name for those built in the US under licence was 2 separate words in reverse order with different capitalization and logos. i.e. boler AMERICAN.

This appears to use all caps as one word AMERICANBOLER, the logo appears to be boler spelt out in a similar font to the original boler font, yet it is different. The American flag is also used to substitute the letter E.

The differences appear significant enough to me.
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Old 11-06-2012, 05:16 PM   #28
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Roy in TO View Post
The original name for those built in the US under licence was 2 separate words in reverse order with different capitalization and logos. i.e. boler AMERICAN.

This appears to use all caps as one word AMERICANBOLER, the logo appears to be boler spelt out in a similar font to the original boler font, yet it is different. The American flag is also used to substitute the letter E.

The differences appear significant enough to me.
think that the new company will legally be able to use the Boler trademark, since there is no existing company to challenge it on the basis that it would cause confusion with an existing product. Whatever trademark or patent which may have existed would have expired long ago, and ownership of the name is not a copyright issue. However, I personally feel that it is a mistake to do so. Having owned a Boler and seen many others, they were largely hand made with the variable quality control and 1970s engineering that comes with it. I think that the new product is likely to be better constructed and of course more modern in its styling and accessories. Although the old Boler is cute when restored, my own opinion is that the new company would be better off with a name that, while it may evoke the old trailers, doesn’t associate itself too closely with them.

I know that Trillium in both Alberta and California have retained the name, but they both used the old trailers to make new moulds and are very close in style. The new Boler is different enough in style that it should have its own identity. Just my opinion.

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Old 11-06-2012, 07:17 PM   #29
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I am excited for Robert. He has been a generous supporter of those, on this forum, needing help. I hope that this is the start of a great thing for another American entrepreneur, and couldn't be happier at the prospect.

Cathy
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Old 12-31-2012, 02:04 PM   #30
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This use of the Boler name demonstrates that, as with Trillium, a name can be re-used with no actual ownership rights to the name, by operating in another country and/or appropriating a trademark with an expired registration.

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... despite the disclaimer in the small print, I dislike the re-use of the Boler name.
I agree. Since the business does not own the original name, is not a continuation of the original business, and is not replicating the original design, I think taking the Boler name is highly inappropriate.
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Old 12-31-2012, 02:28 PM   #31
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Originally Posted by Brian B-P View Post
This use of the Boler name demonstrates that, as with Trillium, a name can be re-used with no actual ownership rights to the name, by operating in another country and/or appropriating a trademark with an expired registration.


"As with Trillium"????

I think that was settled among all the players/claimants. Trillium U.S.A. even had a (shortlived) deal with Escape to manufacture the brand in Canada, for sale under the American label ( link to 2008 discussion)


The partnership fell apart because, at least according to Escape, they couldn't agree on a price for the units produced.
( link to 2009 thread)


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Old 12-31-2012, 02:45 PM   #32
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The more I look at the "schematics" page, the more I appreciate the thought which has evidently gone into this design.

I did notice a few technical issues, mostly just in my opinion:
  • at 81", it is just a bit too wide to go without wide-vehicle clearance lights, as required by federal standards in both the U.S. and Canada
  • the GVWR seems unrealistically low
  • the front locker looks too low to accommodate the propane tank which is likely there
  • the rear bumper is positioned as a step, but does not appear to be designed to serve well as one
  • the step-in height is very high

On the other hand, the plan appears to be to use advanced composite construction ("infusion moulded") similar to the Lil Snoozy, which I find desirable.
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Old 12-31-2012, 02:51 PM   #33
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Originally Posted by Francesca Knowles View Post


"As with Trillium"????

I think that was settled among all the players/claimants. Trillium U.S.A. even had a (shortlived) deal with Escape to manufacture the brand in Canada...
Francesca appears to be talking but an unrelated business issue - Escape was not using the Trillium name outside of the arrangement with TrilliumRV.

I was referring to TrillimRV's use of the name "Trillium", despite having no ownership rights to that (expired, Canadian) trademark.
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Old 12-31-2012, 03:04 PM   #34
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Originally Posted by Brian B-P View Post

I was referring to TrillimRV's use of the name "Trillium", despite having no ownership rights to that (expired, Canadian) trademark.


There was some controversy over the name- it was briefly used by the same folks who are presently building the "Outback". I s'pose that since as you point out the trademark is expired, they settled things among themselves.

As I said.

Still, it's an apples-and-oranges comparison, since Trillium is actually reproducing the original Trillium, very slightly modified, mainly in the color and window type.

The only thing the so called "American Boler" is taking from the Boler design is its fiberglass construction...except that, as you so helpfully point out, even that has been changed from the traditional laid-up fiberglass to the cheaper bag-molding favored by garage builders everywhere.

I continue to think that this use of the "Boler" name is a cynical and deliberate attempt to capitalize on the ignorance of folks who know only that "Boler" is a famous fiberglass trailer name.


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Old 12-31-2012, 03:35 PM   #35
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Originally Posted by Francesca Knowles View Post

Still, it's an apples-and-oranges comparison, since Trillium is actually reproducing the original Trillium, very slightly modified, mainly in the color.


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Old 12-31-2012, 03:57 PM   #36
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A couple of quick points to add to the discussion...

Re: Trademark - registration is only part of the puzzle. Trademark rights can arise under common law without registration - if you have a unique name and actually use it in conjunction with a particular product/service, trademark rights will arise under common law. Registration helps evidence and establish rights. The above is an oversimplification - its a fairly tricky area that makes lots of lawyers wealthy.

With Brian and Francesca, I agree that they really should just get their own name and not trade on the reputation of a well established although long gone maker.

I generally like the design, but it is getting away from the original boler concept. ie. it is longer, wider, taller and more complicated. That pull down bed in the front takes away headroom (that's why nobody else uses it), and the dinette in the back looks way too small for me to use.

With regard to the proposed production process, the infusion method is generally considered superior to conventional techniques. The following is the generally recognized order of quality (low to high):
-chopper gun (low strength to weight but lets you do curved parts really easily)
-hand laid fabric (longer fiber lengths give better strength and organized direction allows control of strength, and generally less resin - which doesn't contribute strength - is needed). Lots more work required.
-vacuum bagging the hand laid fabric (less resin is required - better strength to weight ratio)
-resin infusion (uses the mold, fabric and vacuum bag - the resin is injected into the dry fabric by vacuum or pressure) generally uses even less resin so even better strength to weight ratio. Even more work required to deal with the bagging and controlling resin flow.
-prepregs (utilize fabrics which come pre-impregnated with the lowest amount of resin necessary) - best strength to weight ratio but messy to work with and really expensive (this is often used with carbon fiber in the aerospace industry).

Again, the above is a vast oversimplification (the next discussion is usually resin types/pros/cons) but it gives a general idea. This is a real area of interest for me and I try to attend composite and boatbuilding trade shows each year to learn about the latest and greatest developments.
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Old 12-31-2012, 04:27 PM   #37
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In case anyone forgot, these are just drawings and sales hype statements entered into a design contest. Unless someone knows that something is really happening, we are just passing a zephyr or two ourselves.



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Old 12-31-2012, 04:55 PM   #38
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"passing a zephyr"!

I like that euphemism....

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Old 12-31-2012, 08:13 PM   #39
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Hope it is not vaporware. And, if not, that there are longer sizes than 13'.
The convention in the forum is to designate trailers by overall length. By that measure, the Zephyr is 16 feet long, not 13 feet.
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Old 12-31-2012, 08:23 PM   #40
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The "forum zephyr" referred to by Bob Miller (above but two) is a lot longer than a mere 16 feet...

Francesca
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