Tankless, Ventless Hot Water in Boler

[gvanginkel]

Hi All

I am undertaking a full gut reno of a Boler 1700. I am sourcing the new parts. I have completely changed the floorplan, removing the bathroom, adding stacked bunks and a queen size bed. The galley is now at the front of the trailer under the window and I would like a Hot water supply that can go under that sink that doesnt require a vent in the wall. DC power or LP is the only option.

Anyone have any advice for me? An EEMax EMT mini tank could be used with AC power but it is not a DC option and I want hot water when not hooked up.

Thanks.

Gerard

[Bob Miller]

A built in LP powered water heater without a vent isn't an option, it's an impossibility. What you are looking for is the holy grail of water heaters.
For that matter, there are no under sink LP waters even with a vent, that I know of, that are legal/safe for RV use.
As long as you have removed the bathroom, maybe a kettle is your best answer.....

[gvanginkel]

Thanks for the response Bob. I guess I'm stuck with ac.

[David Tilston]

Oh please Bob. You have been involved in discussions about such products:
http://www.fiberglassrv.com/forums/f...1-a-57165.html

There are links to three different RV approved, on demand water heaters in that thread.

Have you forgotten, or are you that determined to make every one see the world through your eyes?

Given that 6 gal water heaters are almost common on kijiji, I would likely install one of those, if I ever install a water heater, but the Coleman portable heater still meets my needs.
http://www.amazon.ca/Coleman-Water--...n+water+heater

[Johnny M]

What you could do is get an LP instant hot water heater and set it up outside your camper. They are very inexpensive, most are portable & designed to work outside, some ventable models work inside & they work very well & efficiently. I bought a Fastair model for under $100 off ebay and it is digital and the ignighter runs on 2 "D" batteries. The newest models have an ac powered vent fan to extract the LP exhaust. Mine just has the standard vent without the fan so you have to have a window open to let fresh air in for it to vent properly...

There are multiple options on how to install and plumb it, mine is ventable (some models are not) so I could install it inside but I am on the fence about venting it through the roof only because I can't find an acceptable vent that would look right on top of the boler (and not let water in when trailering)...I am considering an LP roof mount refrigerator vent though...

My other (more feasible) option is to setup the LP water heater outside on a stand, run a standard rv water hose line from the rv camp spigot to the water heater then another one from the water heater to my city water inlet, if I go this route I would like a solution to work with our water tank also which may be a little more complex to plump...

[Bob Miller]

Originally Posted by David Tilston

Oh please Bob. You have been involved in discussions about such products:
http://www.fiberglassrv.com/forums/f...1-a-57165.html

There are links to three different RV approved, on demand water heaters in that thread.

Have you forgotten, or are you that determined to make every one see the world through your eyes?

Given that 6 gal water heaters are almost common on kijiji, I would likely install one of those, if I ever install a water heater, but the Coleman portable heater still meets my needs.
http://www.amazon.ca/Coleman-Water--...n+water+heater

The OP was looking for an under-sink water heater that ran on LP and didn't require an outside vent. That "other" discussion wasn't even suggested.

[David Tilston]

Yes, sorry, I missed the under counter, no vent, requirement.

[toolman45]

I did a Google search and found these Propane water heaters on eBay. Could this work for you?
http://www.ebay.com/bhp/rv-tankless-water-heater

[Johnny M]

Originally Posted by toolman45

I did a Google search and found these Propane water heaters on eBay. Could this work for you?
RV Tankless Water Heater | eBay

These are the types I was referring to in my post above

[gvanginkel]

i have seen these units (thanks) but they all state OUTDOOR use only. So am I to treat the interior of the trailer as outdoor?!?

These trailers came with propane open flame stoves so I am not sure how a HWT burning LP is any different from an air quality perspective. It seems the risk of fire is more the issue but an on demand unit only runs to put HW into a sink so not likely to run often.

THoughts?

[Bob Miller]

"OUTDOOR USE ONLY" are not code words for "Ok to use inside an RV". If there is still some confusion, "Outdoor use only" really means "Outdoor use only".


There are a few small units that are allegedly approved (by whom?) for use inside a RV and they are all about 2-3 times the price of the cheapy ones and require an outside vent. A tankless water heater uses a tremendous amount of LP when running, and that emits not only a substantial amount of heat but a lot of Carbon Monoxide, both of which are unhealthy for children and other living things. Placed inside a cabinet it may use up the available O2 so quickly that it will shut down.


If you want to leave your cook top on with the windows & vents all closed while cooking, you will quickly get a hint about what can happen.


There is no shortage of regular RV water heaters out there. I have installed three of them in 13' RV's (including two "Eggs") myself in the past several years.


But not to worry, there are a number of self-described engineers out there that are apparently smarter that the real engineers that design these things..... and they will tell you how to get around these limitations. (Sarcasm ? YEP) More to come...


Here is a link to one of the Marey Tankless water heaters being sold online as being RV suitable. See the included links for documentation
http://www.homedepot.com/p/MAREY-2-0...10LP/203831044


Yet there is no mention whatsoever of that capability in the installation instructions or any mention of certification for portable use. The MFG, in the warranty, cautions the buyer to determine of the unit is legal for their application.


They also tell (warn) buyers that if they are buying from "ecommerce" sellers to call them and not the seller if you need support. Sorta gives one a warning about who is selling them and any claims they may be making.

[redbarron55]

Obviously it can be done outside the trailer.
This one is mounted in a Stainless Steel enclosure with a Lexan front cover.
I have finally gotten the system online with the LP tank and tested it with the shower (after I finally got it plumbed and the drains hooked up.)
The trick is to set the temp for the setting you want to use without tempering with cold water. This is no problem since there is unlimited hot water to use!
There is a winter/summer switch which I use to switch from warm for hand washing and showers and on the winter setting for hotter water for washing dishes etc.
There is more room on my front A frame since I extended the frame by a foot or so to reduce the tongue load and increase the stability of the rig.
Also up there is the condenser for the mini-split heat pump.
I think that the water heater could be installed like I did on the front A frame or the rear bumper. I put mine on the front since all of the consumption is there so shorter runs for the hot water.
By the way I did not think this one up a coworker came up with this idea for his barbecue trailer. It works and you have plenty of hot water of any temp you want. The "problem" is if you try to setup a hotter temp and then temper the output with cold the flow through the heater will probably be too low to operate the flow switch inside and it will quit heating.

[Johnny M]

redbarron55 your setup is nice that is very similar as to what I am working on, only I was going to set mine up on a stand near the city/tank fill water connection and run a short hose from the water spout to it then from it to the city water connection, but seeing yours I might put mine there and permanently plumb it so I can use it with tank water also.

As for Bob's comments he is half right. Most of these instant water heaters are designed for outside use only and can be bought as cheap as $60, I however, did my research and paid additional money for the Fastair model that was designed & advertised for indoor use. Since I bought mine several newer models have come out that are forced air ventilated (meaning with an internal fan using 110v ac). If I had not already purchased mine I would get the forced air type. CampingWorld sells several models for indoor use and here is the link Bob Miller:

EccoTemp FVI12-LP 3.4 GPM LP Indoor Forced Vent Tankless Water Heater - Eccotemp FVI12-LP - Water Heaters - Camping World

Now that it is confirmed you can use these certain models indoors (properly installed) it should be noted however than none of them that I have seen have yet to be DOT approved, meaning that they are not safe to travel with the propane hooked up. This is not a problem for me as I disconnect my propane line from the tank when trailering so it is not an issue. But using it at the campground is just fine. I can see where trailer manufactures might not be able to install them into a new trailer until they get DOT approval, but I see no reason why the end user can't put one in if they choose to do so, so long as it is the indoor type and it installed correctly.

[Bob Miller]

I think that Camping World, in an effort to fill an heretofore unknown need, left off two words from their warning about the water heater mentioned:
"NOT for RV use due to item NOT being DOT approved and must be disconnected while vehicle is in motion." WINK-WINK.

Makes it kinda difficult to run the LP refrigerator while underway.


AND... Can't say that I agree that it's a good idea to put a water heater right next to the vent and connections hose on an LP tank.

[redbarron55]

I worry a lot abut that with my barbecue grill with the LP tank right below the burners with the open flame.
The heater does not operate unless there is water flow and there is also an on - off switch and then the on - off valve on the LP tank as well.
Since the heater automatically lights reliably and the only LP fueled device on my camper is the water heater it is not too much of a burden to turn on and off the LP gas when I Park. I can't say for sure since I am just building the trailer, but I bet it will be OK.
I haven't looked, but are those ovens DOT approved too? How about the small catalytic heaters?
This might be an issue for someone with a LP refrigerator that wants to keep the burners on while underway, but there is no LP within my trailer. All electric except for that water heater. These don't use much gas and I was tempted to use throw away 1 lb. bottles instead of the 20 lb tank.
The plumbing is all PEX 1/2" by the way with Sharkbite fittings and crimps.
Also these heaters are the primary way most of the rest of the world heats water. This is why they are so inexpensive and available.
As to installing inside the problem is not so much the vent (which is a problem unless powered low temp), but rather tin incoming combustion air. There are larger units that have a coaxial vent that feeds combustion air from outside and exhausts the fuels as well. These are more expensive and I think a little overkill.
I think the way I did it is a good compromise with no combustion inside and no LP gas lines either.

[Bob Miller]

Actually I don't worry about my BBQ because a) there is a metal firewall between the burner and the tanks, b) the smell of an LP leak could be quickly detected because the user is in the immediate vicinity and c) the components in a BBQ system are being used in a manner for which they were designed. No comparison there.....

[redbarron55]

Since LPGA gas is heavier than air and sinks towards the ground I see no problem either way. This is why the barbecue is safe anyway. The firewall you mention is full of holes

Sent from my SCH-I605 using Fiberglass RV mobile app

[Bob Miller]

Originally Posted by redbarron55

Since LPGA gas is heavier than air and sinks towards the ground I see no problem either way. This is why the barbecue is safe anyway. The firewall you mention is full of holes

Sent from my SCH-I605 using Fiberglass RV mobile app

My BBQ's are 1200+ miles away so I went out and looked at a BBQ that was burned up in the fires in the house above Judith's and it has a solid metal floor below the burners. Didn't think that they wanted cooking greases dripping down on the LP tank.

[redbarron55]

I have been looking for reference to DOT certified LP appliances for RVs without success.
Bob since you are the expert perhaps you could give us some reference sites to the certification of LP appliances in regards to DOT certification?
I know that the tanks must meet the DOT certifications, but I fail to find the references to those pesky consumers of the gas. The Fastar unit is CE approved, but lacking in that DOT approval. The Attwood is also CE approved, but I can find no mention of any DOT approval on their website. It must be some oversight on their part.
Bob I think you are generating DOT (other than the tank) requirements out of pretty thin air.
The hazards of LP is the reason there is none inside my camper. Back in the day ther LP gas detectors were not readily available and I worried about the kids sleeping on pallets down low and for this reason I tended to not use the propane.
Our "new" Scamp rebuild has no gas internally and has a swing compressor refrigerator , Heat pump with backup strip heat, and the external water heater for this reason. I was going all electric, but the electric tankless draw a lot of power and are not very satisfactory in controlling the temp. I do have more weight than I had hoped involved with this part of the project and I may switch to smaller 1 lb bottles excepat SHe Who Must Be Obeyed want to add a grill for outdoor cooking when she wants. There is no indoor stove (see above). We will have an electric skillet and microwave convection oven.
While the weight is a little higher than I want it also does not have 6 gallon of water trapped in the tank all the time and this is 48 lbs added to the trailer. While you have the 6 gallons you still cannot easily count is as storage since to use it the water has to come from the fresh water tank anyway. Since a full LP tank weighs about 37 lbs that removes some of the penalty for the LP tank and heater.

[Bob Miller]

[QUOTE=redbarron55;547613]I have been looking for reference to DOT certified LP appliances for RVs without success.
Bob since you are the expert perhaps you could give us some reference sites to the certification of LP appliances in regards to DOT certification?
I know that the tanks must meet the DOT certifications, but I fail to find the references to those pesky consumers of the gas. The Fastar unit is CE approved, but lacking in that DOT approval. The Attwood is also CE approved, but I can find no mention of any DOT approval on their website. It must be some oversight on their part.
Bob I think you are generating DOT (other than the tank) requirements out of pretty thin air. (clip)
________________________________________________

Nope, not me. The only time that DOT appeared in my posts was in a quote from a Camping World advertisement.

I contacted Eccotemp about that question and they don't seem to have an answer either. In as much as Camping World started that, maybe you should ask them for a reference. It's still a mystery to me. Here is my email to Eccotemp and their reply.
--------------------------------------------------------------------
robert miller, Sep 10, 10:37 AM:
Good Morning
I am looking for a water heater for my RV.
Camping World is offering your EccoTemp FVI12-LP 3.4 GPM LP Indoor Forced Vent Tankless Water Heater, but warns that it is not DOT approved and must be disconnected unless parked.
Can you provide me with a reference to that DOT regulation so I can understand what is required.
Many Thanks
Bob Miller
Chelan, WA
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KP, Sep 10, 11:04 AM:
Hello Mr. Miller,
Thank you for contacting Eccotemp Systems, LLC. In regards to your product inquiry regarding the FVI12-LP, we did not unfortunately participate in any 3rd party approvals on this models, however, this heater is approved for use on RV/Boats/Campers as long as the structure/home the heater is installed in is stationary, and NOT in motion when this heater is in operation. We hope this helps, please let us know if you have any other questions or concerns and we'll be happy to assist you from there. Thanks and have a great day.

***Please note that this ticket is automatically closed when we reply to you, however if you simply respond back to the ticket, it will immediately be placed back into open status for review.***
We appreciate and value your business,
Warmest Regards,
Kristin
Technical Support Team
Eccotemp Systems, LLC
tech@eccotemp.com
www.eccotemp.com


__________________________________________________ ________

But, as mentioned, my interest in adapting residential LP water heaters to RV use is peripheral only, as I have a strong belief in having a safe and full functioning FGRV for boondocking, as well as Resort like use, using tried and proven methods.....LOL