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Old 05-05-2015, 11:27 AM   #21
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Originally Posted by floyd View Post
Early Scamps were built with conventional pop-rivets without caps, illustrating the fact that tight conventional pop-rivets do not leak. About 35 years ago cosmetic caps and washers were added. The way to preserve the washers and keep the rivets tight, is to replace the caps before the washers are exposed to the sun…
Now that's interesting, Floyd. The caps do not last long in my area (high altitude combined with lots of sun). I have also found them a nuisance when I am waxing the trailer.

What would you (and others) think about skipping the washers and caps when I replace a couple of rivets this year?
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Old 05-05-2015, 12:08 PM   #22
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Truthfully, I stuck to "rivets" on the Escape vs Scamp because of the ongoing "riveting" conversation we're having. And you're right...I shouldnt have used "all".

But, in reality, on the Scampers Yahoo group, I sent out a list of problems/issues I had to deal with on my new Scamp that would be a deal-breaker on the next purchase vs the Escape. Wont go into the list other than give a couple of examples: One was the door seal...which I think they're NOW putting the new "lip" seal on. Second was the wiring/breaker they used on my Coleman A/C w/heat strip. The Coleman manual calls for 20A wire/breaker. I called Kent Eveland's hand and told him they're using 15A and asked why. He said they'd never read that and he didnt know it. What??????

In all fairness, I realize NO manufacturer or RV is perfect. I'd ACTUALLY prefer an "Oliver" (30 miles from me) but they're WAYYY out of my league in pricing!
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Old 05-05-2015, 12:36 PM   #23
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McMaster again (my favorite toy store).

These are closed end rivets (water can't seep in around the mandrel) and sealant under the outside domed flange.
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Old 05-05-2015, 01:13 PM   #24
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I really don't get the issue. Screws strip or rust solid, bolts seize or work loose, rivets can pull out or work loose. Any of these are an annoying part of all things mechanical.

ANY opening can and probably has leaked at some point in time for someone if not for you. I would suggest just getting a tarp and avoid all things mechanical but the grommets rip out on those and don't get me started on pole and stake epic failures. Sigh, guess we pays our money and takes our chances.

BTW - Steve thanks for that suggestion and source
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Old 05-05-2015, 01:39 PM   #25
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Originally Posted by Darral T. View Post
Have you tested or have proof that more secure fasteners will "crack or break" the fiberglass??? If you do, I want to see it.
Here's the thing Darral - I don't need to prove it! Over many years the builders & their research and development teams have done it for me. Having spent my life around fiberglass boats as well as the last 25 years around fiberglass campers and another 9 with fiberglass trailers, I have seen many an example of what happens when someone takes a flexible object such as 1/8" to 1/4" thick fiberglass such as what most of the walls of our trailers are and affixes it to a less flexible object restricting movement.

As far as cracking on trailers go - YUP I have seen it on a couple of trailers at various trailer meets I attend each year were someone decided to reinvent the trailer and use SS bolts and nuts rather than rivets. Sorry I did not take pictures of it and sadly like many other such incidents when someone does something that others had advised the party was a bad idea they all to often fail to report back here as to how it worked out. Will leave it to you to decide why that may be.

More importantly even if I did take a photo of it I would not embarrassing the party further by publicly shaming them here by posting photos of the mistake made on their trailer without their blessing to do so.

But as you are wanting pictures here are a few links to information that is already out in the the public domain that you may find of interest. It shows what can happen on fiberglass when affixed to something that does not flex.

CBOC Marine - Fiberglass Repair Part 2

For those who can't be bothered to do much reading on the topic the following is short explanation as to why cracks can and will happen in fiberglass taken from the above link of CBOC Marine - Fiberglass Repair Part 2 :

"Stress cracks are those nasty spider web looking cracks that occur a point of impact or where there is movement in the fiberglass deck or hull. Movement means an area were a stiff or built up area of lamination meets an area of less lamination. When the material tries to flex stress cracks appear along this line. These types of cracks often occur in a tight radius, under cleats, or at the back edge of your swim platform. What are they? This is were the base fiberglass material under the gel coat has fractured, when a really bad stress crack occurs the gel coat will start to flake away exposing the pink material under the gel coat layer. When you stress or impact the surface of the boat stress cracks will show up, either in the weakest locations or the locations that are overbuilt. Boat fiberglass lamination construction is a fine art between to thin and too thick. If the material is too thick it will shatter like window glass, it has no give or flexibility. If the material is to thin it will crack from lack of lamination or voids in the lamination process create a reduction of material strength and bond."


While minor surface stress cracks in gelcoat itself is not a big deal if they become anymore than that they can create a MUCH bigger problem. So you really do not want to do anything that may help create even minor cracks in the first place. As clearly explained on the webpage passagemaker.com. A short bit from that website explains why: " When gelcoat becomes damaged, however, either in the form of stress cracks or due to impact or other stress, its aesthetic appeal is obviously diminished. However, does this also diminish its ability to resist water absorption? In fact, this is, or should be, of less concern; for the most part gelcoat is cosmetic, and it has no structural properties what so ever. If, on the other hand, the damage is more than skin deep, if the cracks penetrate the laminate, then it’s another matter entirely. Water may enter the fiberglass laminate as well as core material beneath."

Keep in mind that that boats historically are made with a much thicker fiberglass than what most of our trailers regardless of brand. Thus the fiberglass on our trailers is going to flex more when under way than what one would expect to see on a boat.

While fully appreciate that you have had an issue with two rivets in a high stress area on your 4 year old trailer leaking. I also agree its not fun to have to deal with something like that but not so sure I would be so fast as to want to reinvent the trailer by using a product that the manufacture does not use.

If it was mine I would be trying to determine all the possible reason why it has happened and talk to the trailer manufacture to find out what they suggest be used/done to possible correct the problem if you have not already done so. It could be the original rivet used in that area was to small of diameter in relationship to the size of the hole that was drilled - that is a very common reason for a rivet to leak - it allows to much movement and the rivet rubs to much against the fiberglass creating an even larger hole. Or perhaps the holes that were drilled for the two parts that are being affixed together where not perfectly aligned putting more pressure on the rivet in a high stress area, than would be if they were perfectly aligned or it prevented the rivet from going on perfectly straight which prevented the cap from sitting perfectly flat on the trailer.

Not wishing to argue the point with you simple sharing with you why I would not assume the cause of the problem was simple due to the manufactures choose of product used to attach the two parts. Historically there is nothing to support that theory, as one only has to look at how many 20 and 30 year old trailers made by the same manufacturer that are still on the road today that have the original attachment still on them and have never have had a leak or break in that same location.

As with all things in life its entirely up to you to come to your own opinion as to the how comes and why and with all things in life YMMV.
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Old 05-05-2015, 02:04 PM   #26
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Obviously from the reading, just because you use a bolt rather than a rivet doesnt mean total catastrophe NOR cause! I've seen the hairline cracks in my Scamp LONG before rivet failures and even the Scamp manual tells you to expect some. But where I repaired my closet, we'll see. It's bolted. Dont forget, Scamp attaches their awning with bolts. To secure my awning, they used FOUR 1/4-20 bolts with locknuts! (That's also in the Flickr photos)

Hmmm...do you wonder why they didnt use rivets??? They've never came or worked loose. And that awning is HEAVY. THAT is why I chose bolts on the closet. Maybe I'm wrong but only time will tell. (I DID use Stainless Steel bolts washers- no rust)

Here's the clincher folks... sit tight... in a few years, we'll be 3D "PRINTING" out our own trailers with the cabinets pre-installed...no seams, no rivets, no bolts... Sounds far-fetched?? Maybe. But it will happen!
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Old 05-05-2015, 02:15 PM   #27
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I plan to do away with the plastic caps and since I am installing wood cabinets I will be using stainless screws like these

With stainless washers like this:

These will be almost flush and I will counted sink the fiberglass for the washers and screws to fit flush and fill the void with butyl rubber putty before installing the screws.
These are used on aircraft and hold up very well in a very harsh environment.
For those pesky places where one might need a rivit then I plan to use stainless countersunk machine screws with the same washers and sealant with elastic stop nuts on the inside with washers to spread the load.
I have spent the last weeks finding all of the holes in my Scamp and now to fiberglass/bondo over all of the holes I won't be using.
I have cleaned, primed and painted the inside and replaced the floor woth 3/4" plywood fiberglassed top, bottom and sides and screwed and bonded to the repaired frame.
If I had not fiberglassed the floor completely then it would have already been ruined from the leaks I had not yet found.
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Old 05-05-2015, 06:45 PM   #28
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Originally Posted by Darral T. View Post

Hmmm...do you wonder why they didnt use rivets??? They've never came or worked loose. And that awning is HEAVY. THAT is why I chose bolts on the closet. Maybe I'm wrong but only time will tell. (I DID use Stainless Steel bolts washers- no rust)
LOL actually on mine the bolts for the awning are the only fasteners I have ever had to replace located on the roof or upper body of the trailer due to leaking


Why might they use bolts on the awning?

Having had to remove the awning to fix the leaks - the answer is as you point out the awning is heavy and as such to heavy to secure with rivets.

Note the points that the awning is secured with bolts are at far upper corners of the trailer where there is least amount of shell twisting and bending when traveling.

Not to mention as most owners who have scamp awnings and who left them up in windy conditions have found the aluminium awning is more likely to break/fall apart & blow 3 states away before the bolts holding it in place rip out of fiberglass.
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Old 05-05-2015, 08:13 PM   #29
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If you own a new trailer with rivets you're a potential victim to leaks. Just buy plenty of snap caps, rivets and silicone. You'll have them when you need them. I think Scamp sells the "kits" now....
No, NO, NO.. No silicone EVER on the exterior of your beautiful all-molded-towable. How many times does it need to be said? REALLY? GRRRRRRRRRRRRR.
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Old 05-05-2015, 08:40 PM   #30
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Originally Posted by Donna D. View Post
No, NO, NO.. No silicone EVER on the exterior of your beautiful all-molded-towable. How many times does it need to be said? REALLY? GRRRRRRRRRRRRR.
It'll have to be a few more times yet before you start to convince me.
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Old 05-05-2015, 08:43 PM   #31
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Originally Posted by Jon in AZ View Post
Now that's interesting, Floyd. The caps do not last long in my area (high altitude combined with lots of sun). I have also found them a nuisance when I am waxing the trailer.

What would you (and others) think about skipping the washers and caps when I replace a couple of rivets this year?
I would stick with the caps and just spend the twenty bucks and twenty minutes every few years.
What gets me is ... why doesn't someone make UV resistant caps? Maybe I'll contact the manufacturer.
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Old 05-05-2015, 08:47 PM   #32
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What gets me is ... why doesn't someone make UV resistant caps? Maybe I'll contact the manufacturer.
The cable guy installing cable ( what else? ) outside my white house apologized for the black clips he was using. He told me that the white clips were not UV resistant.
So, you could probably buy black rivet caps.
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Old 05-05-2015, 08:59 PM   #33
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Originally Posted by Glenn Baglo View Post
The cable guy installing cable ( what else? ) outside my white house apologized for the black clips he was using. He told me that the white clips were not UV resistant.
So, you could probably buy black rivet caps.
As I have said before... RED would be my second choice... Making mine "One measley little Scamp!

Actually...I have indoor climate controlled storage so cap replacement intervals are greatly increased.
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Old 05-05-2015, 09:00 PM   #34
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When it's time to replace the caps, BEFORE the clear snap washers deterioate, spray the caps with Fusion paint. The UV inhibators in the paint will give you a few more years.
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Old 05-05-2015, 09:01 PM   #35
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It'll have to be a few more times yet before you start to convince me.
You are a hard man to convince Floyd.... which is different than a hard-headed man!
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Old 05-05-2015, 09:17 PM   #36
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When it's time to replace the caps, BEFORE the clear snap washers deterioate, spray the caps with Fusion paint. The UV inhibators in the paint will give you a few more years.
That just may be a great idea!! Maybe you could even find different shades of paint to match the Scamp gelcoat as it ages!
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Old 05-05-2015, 11:06 PM   #37
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You are a hard man to convince Floyd.... which is different than a hard-headed man!
so true!
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Old 05-06-2015, 07:43 AM   #38
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To rivet or not to rivet?

In airplanes, I have never had to deal with rivet failures as a part of routine maintenance and I
I have flown through plenty of "bumpy air".
I would like the same to be true of my travel trailer!

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Old 05-06-2015, 07:48 AM   #39
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For what it is worth the rivets between the closet and the shell right at the curve of the roof can require a slightly longer grip range than the other closet rivets to fit well. Found this when replacing my original rivets with ones having snap caps. Not enough tip comes through to expand inside the nut, much of the expansion takes place in the hole through the fiberglass.

The curved roof and the curved section of closet are either a small amount thicker, or will not draw as tight together as the flat surface. I ended up using the trick that Carol H. posted to cut the next size longer rivet down for a custom fit, then the expansion was inside the acorn nut and it drew the closet in tightly.

As for counter sunk washers? I'm not a big fan of doing a counter sink free hand in fiberglass that is 1/8 inch thick.

As for sillycon caulk you should be forced to sit on a stool in the corner while someone cleans all that goop off of an old trailer they have just purchased. I think you will find the second day tougher on the backside than the first day of sitting. Bah! About the only thing I think silicon caulk is good for is during trailer inspection it lets you know where to look for the leaks the owner TRIED to repair.

Note the leaks are not fixed, the prev. owner just put that string of sticky rubber on there so it would collect dirt and they would know where the leak was and not put stuff in that area.
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Old 05-06-2015, 09:08 AM   #40
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Good point Ray. Come to think of it, they dont sandwich insulation and rat fur between the pieces they're riveting together either. Come to think of it, they dont use snap caps either.

HMM... good one for Carol here to research.... I wonder if aluminum Airstreams have this problem with rivets loosening?

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In airplanes, I have never had to deal with rivet failures as a part of routine maintenance and I
I have flown through plenty of "bumpy air".
I would like the same to be true of my travel trailer!

Ray

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