2008 Toyota Highlander V6 towing 16'ft. Casita SD? - Page 4 - Fiberglass RV
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Old 11-03-2018, 08:18 AM   #61
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I have never had any type of road side assistance, but should have.

Agreed it is a good idea to have some type of emergency road rescue service such as AAA, Good Sam, etc..

A problem is that our Radial tires are reluctant to survive a flat that occurs while moving, especially at highway speeds. And to make matters worse, there are a zillion sizes of tires, for our Tugs. And many sizes for our trailers.

What can the rescue "Guy" or "Gal" do when they get there other than change the tire with our spare, if we have one and it is properly inflated. If a tire should go flat while at rest, that "person" may be able to patch a small hole such as from a nail. If they are allowed to.

As Jim pointed out the Highlander has a Donut spare. With exception of a few cars and most "Trucks", the Donut seems to be the spare of choice. And mizterwizard suggested they may not be rated for towing applications. I expect that to be factual, especially on the rear of the Tug. Even worse is that the Tug may not have even come with a spare.

Any of these scenarios can leave us in a bind. We could replace the Donut with a full size tire, but where would we carry it, as there is usually just enough room in the assigned tire storage for the Donut.

k
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Old 11-03-2018, 02:04 PM   #62
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with a FWD vehicle (or AWD thats FWD predominate), the donut spare provides a real quandry... you do NOT want a donut spare on the front of a FWD vehicle, the steering will be extremely squirrely
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Old 11-03-2018, 03:07 PM   #63
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Not all road service agencies will help with a trailer, AAA in pennsylvania only covers a motorized rv, not travel trailer. I switched to Good Sam who will send 2 tow trucks, for tow and trailer.
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Old 11-03-2018, 03:08 PM   #64
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Quote:
Originally Posted by John in Santa Cruz View Post
with a FWD vehicle (or AWD thats FWD predominate), the donut spare provides a real quandry... you do NOT want a donut spare on the front of a FWD vehicle, the steering will be extremely squirrely
Another reason most fwd vehicles are not towing....
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Old 11-03-2018, 03:18 PM   #65
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IKR, who cares how much air is in the spare. Everyone should carry a compressor. I carry two.. one that inflates fast and an older / slower one as a backup. And I deflate my spare to 10-15 psi to prolong its life.

https://www.goodyearrvtires.com/tire-storage.aspx
Tire Storage
That is a good solution.

I inflate my spares to the maximum on the sidewall and carry a tire gauge. Then they will be in the safe pressure range longer without as frequent checking. When I mount them up I deflate to the proper pressure. For example, my truck needs 50 PSI on the fronts and 65 psi on the rears but I inflate the spare to 80 PSI and deflate it as needed when put into use.

I've never had a tire get old from holding high pressure. The cord will typically outlast the rubber when it comes to ageing but deflating the tires for storage is a good idea.
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Old 11-03-2018, 03:59 PM   #66
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Originally Posted by Kip in Ga. View Post
I have never had any type of road side assistance, but should have.

Agreed it is a good idea to have some type of emergency road rescue service such as AAA, Good Sam, etc..

A problem is that our Radial tires are reluctant to survive a flat that occurs while moving, especially at highway speeds. And to make matters worse, there are a zillion sizes of tires, for our Tugs. And many sizes for our trailers.

What can the rescue "Guy" or "Gal" do when they get there other than change the tire with our spare, if we have one and it is properly inflated. If a tire should go flat while at rest, that "person" may be able to patch a small hole such as from a nail. If they are allowed to.

As Jim pointed out the Highlander has a Donut spare. With exception of a few cars and most "Trucks", the Donut seems to be the spare of choice. And mizterwizard suggested they may not be rated for towing applications. I expect that to be factual, especially on the rear of the Tug. Even worse is that the Tug may not have even come with a spare.

Any of these scenarios can leave us in a bind. We could replace the Donut with a full size tire, but where would we carry it, as there is usually just enough room in the assigned tire storage for the Donut.

k
Yes, radials often get torn up before you can get the vehicle stopped. Older bias ply tires would supply some support even when flat because the side walls were stiff. Radial sidewalls are pretty flexible and don't do much without air to keep the rims off the ground.

I think most rescue trucks have air on board. At least I've never seen one that didn't.

Not only are the tire sizes a problem but the bolt pattern for the wheels is variable. There must be a couple of dozen different options there. It would be really handy if your trailer and tow vehicle could use the same spare but that would be pretty hard to arrange.

About the only way a rescue vehicle could replace a bad tire would be if you told them what to bring out. If it is a AAA tow truck associated with a tire store you could be in luck. There are also mobile tire services all around. Out here in the West there are Les Schwab tire stores all over the place and they will come out with a tire and put it on your rim, for a price. The trouble is that the price is pretty high. I helped a trucker once who had lost both duals on one axle of his trailer. They charged him $600 per tire. WOW.

I used to own a Kenworth 10 wheel dump truck. There was a guy who would come and fix flats, including replacing tire when needed. He was an independent and he hardly charged more than a tire shop. There are lots of options.

If you look at a spare tire as a way to get to the next town for a more permanent repair then a lot of things open up.

I agree that a FWD tow vehicle and donut tires don't mix in any way. You can't put the donut on the rear because it probably is marginal carrying the weight of the tow vehicle alone. When you add the tongue weight of the trailer it will almost certainly be overloaded. You can't put it on the front because it isn't the same size as the other front tire so it would ruin the differential. A donut isn't supposed to be on a drive axle anyway.

However, you could put it on any position and drive cautiously to the next town where you could get a real tire put back on. You just can't go 70 MPH or drive like you are in a rally. It all depends on how you view a spare tire. If you think of it as a total replacement for a regular tire then a donut is out of the question. If you view it as an emergency supply to keep you from dying a horrible death in the wilderness then it can be very useful.

The question of where to put a full sized spare can be a sticky one. There are kits to mount it on the exterior of many vehicles if there isn't room inside. Maybe you can fit it onto the tongue of your trailer. It could even be stacked with the trailer spare there. Maybe there is room on the back of your trailer for the spare for your tow vehicle. In that case you might keep the donut in the tow vehicle for ordinary use and then when you tow you would have a fully capable spare.

About patching a nail hole. There are plug kits that you can carry with you. The whole thing is about the size of a bandaid box. If you can find the puncture, you may be able to do a decent repair that will at least get you back on the road. Some people think that plugs are permanent repairs and some think they are a totally temporary option. I won't get into that but at least they can get you to the next town. These kits often come with CO2 cartridges to inflate the tire too. Then there is the flat-fix sort of sealant and inflator in a can option. Using these really messes up the inside of the tire, making a patch repair in the future very difficult but if it gets you to the next town then that is enough.

Then there is the log beside the road option. In the movie "The World's Fastest Indian" Burt Munroe had a flat on his trailer in the middle of the Utah desert. He didn't have a spare or tools so he used a rock as a fulcrum and a log as a lever. With the axle lifted up in the air he tied on another log to the axle and drug the trailer to the next town. I presume there wasn't much left of the log when he got there and I also presume that he didn't go very fast but it got him there.

I've also seen people drive into a tire shop with a flat tire on their car and throwing sparks every where from the rim hitting the road. Of course the wheel and tire were toast but it worked for them.

A flat tire is never a fun thing but a resourceful person can always deal with it. Perhaps the best flat repair tool out there is a cell phone.
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Old 11-03-2018, 04:15 PM   #67
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Just to be clear, when I talk about driving cautiously with a less than ideal flat solution applied to your vehicle, I mean really slowly and with minimal steering. The point is to get somewhere where the problem can be fully resolved, not to get to the next campground as soon as possible. I'm thinking no more than 20 mph in some situations. forget keeping up with freeway traffic with a compact spare on your tow vehicle. Even slower would be appropriate in adverse weather or on a bad road.

I look at it like this. I look down the road 100 yards and say to myself, "Can I get there without hurting myself, anyone else or anyone's property?" If the answer is no then I find another option but the answer is almost always yes. Then I look another 100 yards and do the same calculation. If it takes hundreds of these calculations to get to help that's okay, as long as the answer is never no.
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Old 11-04-2018, 05:59 AM   #68
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Strangely so many vehicles are now FWD dominant (including AWD models) and yet the manufacturers insist on using donuts. Or no spare at all.

I had never considered damage to a differential if a donut is install on that axle.

So assuming that to be true, it would seem the best thing to be safe following a flat on that ( differential) axle would be to first remove a wheel from the other axle and put the donut there. Then replace the flat with the full size wheel.

Another problem would be be if the above exercise resulted in the donut ending up on the rear and there is a trailer in tow. Will it support the weight? Maybe not!
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Old 11-04-2018, 06:18 AM   #69
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mizterwizard View Post
Yes, radials often get torn up before you can get the vehicle stopped. Older bias ply tires would supply some support even when flat because the side walls were stiff. Radial sidewalls are pretty flexible and don't do much without air to keep the rims off the ground.
Yep, and in days of yore, even with those heavy trailers, tires were never much of a concern. If they held the correct pressure, usually in the 30-40 lb arena, and the tread was reasonable, they were good to go.

And they were often "Recaps" as were the ones on the tug. If they began loosing the recap or developed a crack or bubble they were replaced. True that the first few miles might be a tad rough until the flat spots from sitting went away. But with all the towing and driving in general, we never had a tire self destruct from a flat.

A flat generally required changing the tire and getting a patch on the tube of the flat one. Occasionally a new tube was required. Put it back where it belonged and act like we had good sense.

k
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Old 11-04-2018, 08:36 AM   #70
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Originally Posted by Kip in Ga. View Post
So assuming that to be true, it would seem the best thing to be safe following a flat on that ( differential) axle would be to first remove a wheel from the other axle and put the donut there. Then replace the flat with the full size wheel.
IMO it is so much a concern for me that if I ever have a flat on on a front tire on my FWD car I would start by installing the donut on a rear wheel, then use the good rear wheel I just took off to replace the flat on the drive axle.
And I'm not towing anything with it.

I tow with my Highlander, which has a full-time AWD system, so both axles are always driven, 50-50 split. The spare is full-size.
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Old 11-05-2018, 03:44 PM   #71
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Yep, and in days of yore, even with those heavy trailers, tires were never much of a concern. If they held the correct pressure, usually in the 30-40 lb arena, and the tread was reasonable, they were good to go.

And they were often "Recaps" as were the ones on the tug. If they began loosing the recap or developed a crack or bubble they were replaced. True that the first few miles might be a tad rough until the flat spots from sitting went away. But with all the towing and driving in general, we never had a tire self destruct from a flat.

A flat generally required changing the tire and getting a patch on the tube of the flat one. Occasionally a new tube was required. Put it back where it belonged and act like we had good sense.

k
Just one more proof that it is a bad idea to judge the past by the present or the present by the past. Lots of things will work but when something better comes along we wonder how we survived past practice.

I grew up in Fairbanks, Ak. I don't directly remember this but my dad told me that sometimes in the winter the flat spot on the tire would be so bad that the un-driven wheels would just slide along until you found some dry pavement to make them turn. It could get a little tricky negotiating the neighborhood until you got to a plowed road because sliding tires don't steer very well.
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Old 11-05-2018, 04:11 PM   #72
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Originally Posted by Kip in Ga. View Post
Strangely so many vehicles are now FWD dominant (including AWD models) and yet the manufacturers insist on using donuts. Or no spare at all.

I had never considered damage to a differential if a donut is install on that axle.

So assuming that to be true, it would seem the best thing to be safe following a flat on that ( differential) axle would be to first remove a wheel from the other axle and put the donut there. Then replace the flat with the full size wheel.

Another problem would be be if the above exercise resulted in the donut ending up on the rear and there is a trailer in tow. Will it support the weight? Maybe not!
I bet if you have a vehicle with a donut spare and you look in the owner's manual it will instruct you to only run full sized tires on the front and compact spares on the rear. If the front gets a flat then you are supposed to move a rear tire to the front and use the spare on the rear.

I suppose few of the members of this forum have actually seen the insides of a differential but I've seen a lot of them. A rear end consists of a pinion gear that is driven by the u-joint on the rear of the prop shaft. The pinion engages with a ring gear. The ring gear is mounted on a carrier which is a cast steel part. The ring and pinion are not actually part of the differential but are a gear reduction and drive direction change gear set.

Inside the carrier are 4 gears that actually make up the differential. There are 2 spider gears mounted on a shaft through the carrier and 2 side gears that spline to the end of the axle shafts. These differential gears are pretty crudely made and not very accurately machined, compared to say, transmission gears. They don't need to be very good gears because most of the time they just transfer forces without actually doing much moving relative to each other.

Since they aren't intended to move much they don't have much of an oil supply or cooling. Only the ring and pinion get well lubed and cooled. If the differential gears are forced to differentiate a lot because the wheels they drive are different sizes then the bearing surfaces of the gears can scuff and gall.

It isn't that they can't take any work, they can. It's just that they are not intended to be constantly rotating against each other at high speed. Even having one tire on dry pavement while the other spins wildly on ice can harm a differential if it goes on long enough.

If it is necessary to drive with mismatched tires on the driven axle then to protect the differential it is advisable to drive slowly and if you have to go a long way, take a break from time to time to let things cool down.

This is one of those best practices things. You might get away with working the differential more than I'm suggesting. Most people do but I've also seen differentials ruined by getting stuck one time and not using good sense to get unstuck.

The differential is there primarily to enable smooth operation while turning corners. If it is used for other things, like compensating for unequal tires, you just have to be aware of what you are doing and act accordingly.

Again, you can tow with a donut but you have to respect that your tow vehicle is no longer as capable as it was. Respect the reduced capacity by being extra careful and you will be okay.

It would be better though if you could arrange to have a full sized spare somewhere, even if you had to keep it on the floor of your trailer while driving and set it outside when you setup.
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Old 11-05-2018, 04:23 PM   #73
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Yep, and in days of yore, even with those heavy trailers, tires were never much of a concern. If they held the correct pressure, usually in the 30-40 lb arena, and the tread was reasonable, they were good to go.
high load tires use way more than 30-40 PSI... my F250 uses load range "E" LT tires and specs 70 PSI on the rears

semi truck tires are often inflated to 100 PSI or more.

30-40 PSI is passenger car range.
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Old 11-05-2018, 08:07 PM   #74
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I got a PM from a member here who pointed out some things relative to the particular vehicle in question that I thought the rest of us might like to know.

The compact spare used in a Highlander is about the same diameter as the regular tires so there is minimal risk to the differential in this case. While lots of compact spares are much shorter than normal tires it is not so for the Highlander in question. In this case you can ignore my comments about the differential. If you are contemplating a similar situation with another vehicle then you may still need to consider the differential.

The compact spare used in the Highlander is speed rated for 87 MPH. That is plenty fast enough but I believe it would be foolhardy to drive one that fast. They just don't have the rubber on the road that a normal tire has and aren't good for the same use. The Highlander owners manual warns against sudden steering and braking, indicating that they too don't think it is a full substitute for a normal tire.

The Highlander owner's manual specifically forbids towing with the compact spare. I don't believe the prohibition should be absolute but in a world where the first 5 pages of the owner's manual for a battery charger are full of warnings not to do things like stick a screwdriver into a wall socket, I guess you can't relay on people having enough sense to get 20 miles into town on a temporary use tire when towing. I could do it though, in perfect safety.

The compact spare used in a Highlander has a load rating similar to the regular tires so potentially it could carry the truck, passengers, luggage and tongue weight of a trailer just as well as the regular tires, if the manual didn't say not to. It can do this because it runs a lot more pressure.

So in the particular situation of a Highlander V6 towing a 2000 lbs FGRV the spare should be able to hold up what ever corner of the TV it is on, should be able to handle highway speeds, shouldn't ever be used with a trailer in tow, should only be used with moderate driving manners and should not be counted on to last for very long.

I don't think death and destruction awaits everyone who tows to the next town with a donut, as long as they aren't idiots. If you treat it as a solution to an emergency situation and drive accordingly then all will be well. Only you can decide if you agree or disagree with this point of view.
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Old 11-05-2018, 08:11 PM   #75
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One thing to keep in mind relative to spare tires is the short duration of their use. Lots of things that would be unacceptable for normal tires are perfectly reasonable with a spare.

If you plan to race the Baja 1000 you are going to need a dozen full size spare tires identical to the regular tires. If you are going to do what most people do then you need a whole lot less.
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Old 11-05-2018, 08:18 PM   #76
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a big problem with a skinny spare on the front of a FWD car is torque steer. FWD cars are already squirrely enough, if one front wheel looses a bit of traction when you're accelerating around a sharp turn, for instance, making a U turn when the left turn light goes green, it pulls the steering hard out of your hand. having one front tire have drastically less traction than the other will hugely exaggerate.
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Old 11-05-2018, 08:28 PM   #77
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I thought these newer vehicles were equipped with computers that detect slippage at each wheel and compensate instantly.
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Old 11-05-2018, 09:33 PM   #78
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i've never seen any traction control system that works on a tight turn at low speeds, like a U turn, which is where you experience torque steer on FWD vehicles. traction control systems typically have to back off the throttle, and apply the brake of the slipping wheel, that would do all sorts of funky things in the U turn scenario at low speeds, and at least all the ones I've been behind the wheel of only engaged at speeds over around 25-30 MPH
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Old 11-06-2018, 07:50 AM   #79
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On my 06 HL the Stability Control and Traction Control can either engage at very low speed.
Not sure how the system would react with a smaller donut wheel, I don't think it would like it, at any speed!
My Highlander has a full-size spare, and same size tires should always be used on all for wheels. I'm not surprised the 08's donut has the same diameter as the regular tires.
The AWD system is constantly engaged. The computer knows all 4 wheels speeds, and also knows the steering wheel angle, vehicle speed and vehicle turn rate. As long as each wheel speed matches the turn rate vs steering angle and vehicle speed, all is good. It knows how fast each wheel should be spinning during a turn. If a wheel doesn't spin at the right speed, the computer considers the vehicle is slipping and will engage Traction Control and/or Stability Control, even during a tight U-turn at low speed.
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Old 11-07-2018, 02:55 PM   #80
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We are getting pretty technical here but there are several good comments.

If you are flipping a Uie while towing with a compact spare and you get on the throttle hard enough to spin the tires then you deserve what ever horrible consequences ensue. As I have said several time already, with a donut in use you have to drive carefully and this is the very definition of careless driving.

It hadn't occurred to me about needing same diameter tires with ABS and traction control but surely that is why the Highlander spare is full height.

Since some Highlanders come with full sized spares it should be possible to retrofit one to a truck with a compact spare. That would cover the problems a compact might have. It might be necessary to replace all of the tires at once though because according to the PM I got the regular tires sizes are different between those with a compact and those with a regular spare.

Stability control and traction control don't do much for torque steer. They will keep the vehicle going in the direction the wheels are pointed but they don't keep the wheels from being pointed wrongly. In fact, traction control can even enhance torque steer by allowing even more imbalance in the front tire power.

What does help is zero or negative offset alignment geometry which most modern front wheel drives have.

There are traction control systems that work from a standstill all of the way to maximum speed. Some only work at higher speeds. Others only work at low speeds. Different engineers have different goals for their system. Reading the owner's manual can be instructive.
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