Scamp owners seriously injured in fire caused by gas leak

[Civilguy]

Originally Posted by Glenn Baglo

Dog farts are apparently another source of false alarms.

Glenn,

I don't know if you should call that a false alarm.

My experience in this area has been more like "run while you still can!"

[RogerDat]

One can make the pressure test gages. Black pipe T upside down. With a pressure gage on the top. A Schrader valve (like tires have only threaded) on one arm of the T. An adapter to connect to the gas line.

You are simply screwing this on in place of the tank. Putting a normal load of pressure on it with an air pump through the Schrader valve then watch for the pressure gauge to see if it drops over the course of a couple of hours.

You can buy them ready made but they are not that complicated to make and the parts don't cost much. As pointed out if the lines hold pressure you have no leak to look for.

[steve dunham]

A friend of ours had a propane leak in his 32 ft 5th wheel ( Propane alarm was going off ) He took it to an RV dealer who put an air pressure test on the system and found & repaired the leak in under a half hour . Cost was $35 + parts . For that amount of money and the peace of mind that you get I wouldn’t mess with it myself .

[Paul O.]

Originally Posted by gordon2

I feel like a broken record but here I go again.... sniffing and soap bubbles will find many leaks, and will also miss some.

Connecting a manometer will read about 11 inches of water column pressure. Shut off the tank and drop that pressure to 7 or 8, then watch it for 15-20 minutes. If the pressure remains, then you can declare the entire system to be leak free. Not just what you can (or cannot) smell, or the fittings you can (or cannot) reach with soap.

At least that is basically the way I understand that a professional does a leak test. Bubble tests work better to find a leak after one is detected.

I do not disagree - au contraire! Sometimes the broken record is good for some of us.

One point I was trying to make with my story was that if the appliance does not work exactly as designed, or as expected, there is a good reason for a closer look.

[gordon2]

Originally Posted by Paul O.

I do not disagree - au contraire! Sometimes the broken record is good for some of us.

One point I was trying to make with my story was that if the appliance does not work exactly as designed, or as expected, there is a good reason for a closer look.

I think some good points have been made in this thread (without associating them to the incident in West Wichita). Hopefully they will prevent some injuries in the future.

[gordon2]

Update on the victims.

A relative has publicly posted this update, apparently with the OK of the victims, so here it is.

The last message from her is:

Great news Alan and Joan have been released from hospital. They will receive Home Health . 🙏🏻 for them both in there recovery .



https://www.facebook.com/carol.stamb...95586003802967

[Doc.Kev]

The Wichita Scamp fire started with a ruptured copper propane line. A 3/4-inch Break in the copper tubing was found under the front bunk about 16” in from the propane/electrical access (center of the front of the trailer). The copper line runs along the floor, tucked-in close to the front wall/bulkhead, cushioned by the edge of the rat fur headliner fabric. When the propane tank was turned on I immediately heard a loud “hissing” sound and smelled the gas. There is no explanation for the break in the line; nothing rubbing or touching it there. Looks like it just “ruptured” and popped open. The Fix: With the bottom bunk removed, I replaced that 8-foot section of copper with L-grade (thicker) tubing (cost $12 at Menards), also bought the tools to cut & flare the copper ($20), and bought a manometer from Home Depot ($40). No leaks now; heater, stove & fridge work perfectly. Trailer clean-up accomplished. Singed/melted rat fur peeled off easily, melted cushions replaced. PO’s are wonderful people, and this accident could’ve happened to anybody. Listen/smell every time the tanks are activated; turn off tanks when not in use; buy/use manometer to ensure no leaks; spray connections with soapy water to check for escaping gas.

[Jon in AZ]

Thanks for the information & update. It is rare to hear "the rest of the story."

Are the previous owners recovering well? How did you come to acquire the trailer?

I'll look forward to some discussion of Scamp's LP plumbing practices.

[Jann Todd]

Originally Posted by Doc.Kev

The Wichita Scamp fire started with a ruptured copper propane line. A 3/4-inch Break in the copper tubing was found under the front bunk about 16” in from the propane/electrical access (center of the front of the trailer). The copper line runs along the floor, tucked-in close to the front wall/bulkhead, cushioned by the edge of the rat fur headliner fabric. When the propane tank was turned on I immediately heard a loud “hissing” sound and smelled the gas. There is no explanation for the break in the line; nothing rubbing or touching it there. Looks like it just “ruptured” and popped open. The Fix: With the bottom bunk removed, I replaced that 8-foot section of copper with L-grade (thicker) tubing (cost $12 at Menards), also bought the tools to cut & flare the copper ($20), and bought a manometer from Home Depot ($40). No leaks now; heater, stove & fridge work perfectly. Trailer clean-up accomplished. Singed/melted rat fur peeled off easily, melted cushions replaced. PO’s are wonderful people, and this accident could’ve happened to anybody. Listen/smell every time the tanks are activated; turn off tanks when not in use; buy/use manometer to ensure no leaks; spray connections with soapy water to check for escaping gas.

Could there have been moisture in the line and it froze during the winter? I know moisture can build up in lines of any kind. The split looks like a water line that splits open on any type of pipe. I know this was propane but still question the moisture? I'm wondering since we live in a cold winter place and wonder if it was moisture if there is a prevention.

[Doc.Kev]

That is possible. However, there is no other sign of the copper expanding. Having lived in Maine and Northwest Montana, I have fixed about 100 burst copper plumbing lines (using residential saddle patches), helping neighbors, and in all those cases you could see how the copper had been stretched/damaged. In this particular case the rupture was facing upward and slightly back/away from front wall), and as the photo shows, no indication of damage near the hole. The tubing is not stretched, not expanded, no other signs of stretch. It’s just a guess from here.

[Derek Gore]

I too have seen ruptured copper water lines, as city water can get over 100psi. RVrs use pressure regulators on our drinking water hoses to prevent that happening to our RV PEX plastic water lines now used in homes and RVs for its being a bit more forgiving than PB or copper.

This was not caused by ll inches of water pressure as measured by a water column manometer as 11 column inches is right about .5 psi. That copper pipe was burst from severe over pressure caused by a failed/broken regulator, or one someone tampered with. Here's another RV tech writer on that, Mark Polk from RV 101, excerpt:

"On an RV the LP gas pressure is regulated by a two stage regulator. The job of the first stage is to regulate the vapor pressure coming out of the container, which can be as high as 250 psi, down to 10 psi or less. The second stage takes that already lowered vapor pressure and regulates it down to the 11 inches of water column operating pressure. The reason for using a manometer to test this pressure is that the operating pressure for LP gas appliances is extremely low if measured in pounds per square inch; somewhere in the neighborhood of .5 psi."
Source: RV 101® Education with Mark Polk: What Do You Mean 11 inches of Water Column

I worked with Ed Lee Sr. back in 1999/2000 to write non technical propane articles that are technically accurate. Ed Lee was head engineer and trainer for Marshall gas controls, and a nationally known Propane industry and Fire prevention resource.

Marshall Gas Controls used to make most of our RV brass propane fittings, regulators, pigtails and connectors, until their parent company went bankrupt after the 2008 recession, which also caused many RV brands to sell out or close their doors.

I'm seeing some of the same myth-conceptions here. I still carry the articles on my old RV website. Here is the page for all the Propane articles I wrote with his help. Learn exactly how your RV propane system functions, and how to test them in these articles:
http://home.earthlink.net/~derekgore...like/id42.html

Feel free to read them and pass along the link, but please no re-posting or publication without permission. If you read them, the pressure that burst that pipe had to be unregulated. Someone may have tried to use a portable heater and used an unregulated pigtail direct to the Scamp's supply line. Something's not adding up.

Some additional easy safety precautions not mentioned here.

I would encourage everyone to carry a spare 50 foot cheap light garden hose, a brass two way faucet splitter, a brass old school twist hose nozzle in addition to your water pressure regulator for the trailer city water, and your drinking water safe hose. Hook your regulator and city water supply drinking water hose, to one side of the spigot splitter, and the cheap hose with brass nozzle attached to the other, and coiled next to the spigot.

That second hose is your firefighting hose, to be used only from outside after you've exhausted that little extinguisher.

The articles in my link above show you how to test for leaks without a manometer easily according to the propane system engineers. How the check valves in your pigtail work, as well as the tank safety valve, and the melt connectors. They explain why it is safe to travel with your RV refrigerator running on gas as designed.

Important! Propane detector/Alarms have sensors that are only good for five years tops. Replace them every five years or less.

Propane is heavier than air so pools like a liquid from the floor up. So propane detector/alarms need to be on a wall within a few inches of the floor. If a leak is detected get out! And leave the door open so the propane can spill out and dissipate. But get away from the rig for a leak with the door open.

CO is about the same weight as air so CO detector/alarms are best placed midway between floor and ceiling.

Smoke rises so smoke detectors should be on the ceiling.

My Scamp has a CO detector that was placed near the floor?? Probably the first owner. It has a 2013 date, five years old so will be replaced. Remember the test function does not test the sensor in any of them. Test just checks that the battery is not dead and the electrical circuit works. Smoke detectors are usually recommended to replace every ten years.

There is nothing for sale on my website, just RV info and some tales from the road when we were full timing in 36 foot 5th wheels. ten years out of date. But the physics and safety systems in our propane systems remain the same.

If you read my propane articles you'll know that the check valves drop the pressure at the cylinder with any rupture as shown to low pressure. Motor homes have propane tanks, trailers have propane cylinders.

This stuff isn't rocket science, just takes a tiny effort to learn and put into practice. We have a 2013 19 foot Scamp. First thing we did was each practice opening the two emergency escape hatches. We have it on our full hookup RV pad next to our workshop building. We are about to use it so I am going through the rig to check for leaks, function testing all systems. I replaced the battery and installed an antenna for the TV, am next sanitizing the water system and cleaning the black and gray tanks. Then repacking bearings.

Tires also expire regardless of how you cover them or raise them off the ground. Tires oxidize and five years is their lifetime for critical applications like RVs, passenger vehicles, etc. On the side of your tires is the DOT code. The last four numbers are the date of manufacture. the first two are the week it was made, the last two are the year. My trailer last four were 3215 the 32 means it was manufactured in the 32nd week. The last two are the year. So mine were made between August 3rd and 9th, 2015.

EZ PZ. I just replaced all the inside 12 volt bulbs with LED to save power, and am about to change the single pole rear tail, brake, turn signal bulbs for daylight LED bulbs. They're brighter and last much longer if you buy a reputable brand. Then a brake adjustment with the controller in the truck, and leveling the trailer with a circular bubble level in the freezer/refrigerator bottoms.

Back to the topic, there's more to this than over-pressure from a working regulator and Acme nut.

Since it sounds like they can get it usable I'd replace all pigtails, lines and especially that regulator.


Safe travels!

[Doc.Kev]

Unregulated propane = my favorite theory. Thank you. This Wichita Scamp is now gutted, and I am applying new rat fur throughout. Also have access to the interior perimeter and will be replacing most of the copper and will get a new regulator. Thanks for the education and the resources.

[Derek Gore]

Great Doc!
I'm glad you have it and are replacing the regulator, the lines go without saying as they all likely came off the same roll. But as you agree, .5psi couldn't blow up a plastic straw (if you could finagle some kind of connectors on it.) . I've had my website for a long time and used to answer questions freely and enjoyed the research.


I remember one guy who had issues with A generator too large for his system that wanted to drill out the then POL connector (the Acme nut came a few years later) to eliminate the check valves and get flow when all that would is allow it to starve the refrigerator, stove, furnace, and water heater if running through the regulator on propane. We talked him out of it I think. Good luck with your restore. I've seen some awesome mods done with these Scamp travel trailer eggs and fivers. I know yours is not a fiver but the rigs are super simple to modify.



You might want to start a thread for start to finish on your restoration, even if stock.