Turn 5th wheel scamp into towed trailer

[offroad]

Supposedly there is a box or some support configuration structure that can be mounted on a 5th wheel scamp to allow it to be towed like a travel trailer. Has anyone had experience with that type of set up? And is it difficult to get done?

[C&G in FL]

Originally Posted by offroad

Supposedly there is a box or some support configuration structure that can be mounted on a 5th wheel scamp to allow it to be towed like a travel trailer. Has anyone had experience with that type of set up? And is it difficult to get done?

There are a few, and I do mean few, who have made this modification. They did it themselves because there is no "kit" available to do it. I seriously doubt anyone in the welding or RV industry would do such a conversion because of the liability they would face if you ever were involved in a crash. And that's not to mention the liability you would face for modifying a trailer that was not designed to be towed that way. I strongly suggest you consult an attorney if you plan to go forward with this type of modification. The Scamp was designed to be towed using a proprietary hitch system. It is neither a 5th Wheel or a gooseneck even though people often refer to it using these terms.
The bottom line is figure out what you want for a trailer. If you want a tow behind, buy a bumper pull trailer. If you want a "5th wheel" style trailer, buy the Scamp. IMHO, it is unwise to try to make a silk purse out of a sow's ear.

[Jon in AZ]

It's been done a few times as a custom modification. Results I've seen range from redneck and highly questionable to well-executed but very heavy on the tongue.

There is no off-the-shelf product or kit to do it for the very good reason that the tongue weight ends up being too high. Fifth wheels are already designed to carry 15-20% of their weight on the hitch. The addition of the necessary framework (and often a cargo area) under the loft makes it even worse.

Unless you do a full custom frame that can be used with a WDH (most of the homemade jobs I've seen cannot), it's probably going to require a HD truck to handle the tongue weight.

To top it off, some people try to do it so they can carry something heavy in the truck bed, like an ATV...

Execution issues aside, you are changing from a very stable (fifth wheel) towing configuration to a less-stable (bumper-pull) one.

Won't say it can't be done, but it's a bad idea, in my opinion. If you want a bumper-pull, buy a trailer that's been designed and balanced as a bumper-pull.

[offroad]

Will just call scamp factory and get some technical advice there. Will see.

[Paul O.]

Originally Posted by offroad

Will just call scamp factory and get some technical advice there. Will see.

Many of us are curious what the Scamp people tell you. Please let us know.

[Gerry]

Many years ago, maybe 15 years, I a SUV hauling a 5th wheel. I just saw it as it passed while I was in the park with grandchildren
It looked wierd and unstable as heck and I never saw anything like it before or since.
Sure it was a home made rig.

[C&G in FL]

Originally Posted by Paul O.

Many of us are curious what the Scamp people tell you. Please let us know.

Personally, I would think Floyd would be a better source of advice than Scamp would be. When I first picked up my Scamp, I asked about using a different passage set and they insisted it couldn't be done. Over the next few months, I saw several Scamps who's owners had done just that.

Jon....great post. You explained it better than I did!

[Jon in AZ]

Floyd did post a picture of one in a recent thread. He had seen it in person, and he appeared to consider it a legitimate effort. It included a conversion to tandem axles as well, so that might partly mitigate the weight and balance issues. I'd be very curious about total weight and hitch weight in bumper-pull configuration.

Look for Floyd's posts in these threads. You can click on his user name to send him a private message.

http://www.fiberglassrv.com/forums/f...amp-79111.html

http://www.fiberglassrv.com/forums/f...oks-66190.html

[offroad]

Actually I love the tandem axle idea. Have a tall truck so may need to consider doing that if I need to raise anything. --- where is Floyd out of? What state?

[Jon in AZ]

Illinois, but the "Super Scamp" is- or was- out of Wisconsin, I believe. You can click on any member's username and go to their profile for whatever personal information they have elected to share.

Given your moniker, you might also be interested in this highly modified Scamp 19. It was for sale in Utah a while back for around $25K. Don't know if it sold and haven't seen anything of it since, but it might give you some ideas. It retained a fifth wheel, single axle configuration for better maneuverability in the backcountry.

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[The Minimalist]

I have several major concerns with such a conversion. First, that cantilevered front end is engineered to carry the load from bottom to top. The conversion would reverse this and there is no guarantee that the structure is capable of the reversed load. Second, by changing the pivot point, that overhang is going to me changing your weight distribution in turns, not to mention it's swinging wide of the tow vehicle, especially when maneuvering in tight quarters. Third, jeez what would be the tongue weight on that bad boy.

The way I see it, you are still going to have to have clearance, as in a pickup truck. That being the case, why not just install a removable 5th wheel in a pickup and be done with it. Any other type of vehicle that would give clearance would likely be overburdened by the load.

[Raspy]

Originally Posted by The Minimalist

I have several major concerns with such a conversion. First, that cantilevered front end is engineered to carry the load from bottom to top. The conversion would reverse this and there is no guarantee that the structure is capable of the reversed load. Second, by changing the pivot point, that overhang is going to me changing your weight distribution in turns, not to mention it's swinging wide of the tow vehicle, especially when maneuvering in tight quarters. Third, jeez what would be the tongue weight on that bad boy.

The way I see it, you are still going to have to have clearance, as in a pickup truck. That being the case, why not just install a removable 5th wheel in a pickup and be done with it. Any other type of vehicle that would give clearance would likely be overburdened by the load.

Well, not exactly.

Look closer at Floyd's picture of Frank's 5th wheel conversion. The 5th wheel hitch is sitting on a frame that carries the load down to the bumper hitch. The frame section going back to the body of the trailer mainly stabilizes the hitch and transfers the pulling force. Looks to me like it should be fine, and in fact, it seems that it is fine since it is actually being used.

The front of the trailer won't swing wide because the hitch is actually in front of the body.

The setup does seem to make the trailer slightly more top heavy, but the upper room is not a place to store heavy items usually and the tandem axes on this example add a lot of stability.

The tongue weight should be no more than the 5th wheel hitch weight because the new hitch is more forward. Better leverage. But the frame does add some weight up front.

I find it interesting when people make significant design changes to their rigs and this one seems to be well done.

[Wayne Collins]

The one we have seen was done by a Frank Glugla in Wisconsin.
Basically he took off the axle, and mounted it on a flat bed, tandem axle trailer.
He cut off the original gooseneck hitch and braced it to the front frame of the trailer. It made the whole rig taller.
His reason for doing this, was so he could put a topper on his truck.

[Wayne Collins]

Although we keep using "Fifth Wheel" for the 19 ft Scamp. It is really a Gooseneck hitch system, because it mounts to a ball in the bed of a truck.

[offroad]

Originally Posted by Wayne Collins

The one we have seen was done by a Frank Glugla in Wisconsin.

Basically he took off the axle, and mounted it on a flat bed, tandem axle trailer.

He cut off the original gooseneck hitch and braced it to the front frame of the trailer. It made the whole rig taller.

His reason for doing this, was so he could put a topper on his truck.

That makes perfect sense. Mount it to a flat bed quad wheel trailer. Maybe build a goose beck support to the bed of the trailer. Will need to think about this as an alternative solution, instead of raising the wheels with a lift kit.

[Donna D.]

Ask yourself this.... IF Scamp (Evelands) thought this was a good idea, don't you think they'd offer the 5er model as a bumper pull option? Think how wide of a buying audience that would open up. Lots of people would love that layout, but need a bumper pull. This would solve the problem. But Scamp (Evelands) won't build it. Ask yourself why not? They obviously know more about their product, frame weight limits, etc. than any of us.

[Jon in AZ]

Originally Posted by Wayne Collins

The one we have seen was done by a Frank Glugla in Wisconsin. Basically he took off the axle, and mounted it on a flat bed, tandem axle trailer. He cut off the original gooseneck hitch and braced it to the front frame of the trailer. It made the whole rig taller...

Have you seen this trailer in person, Wayne? Floyd stated the framework for the bumper pull modification on Frank's "Super Scamp" trailer was removable and could easily be returned to the original hitch configuration (post #8 in the Rotochoks thread). Sure doesn't sound like a flatbed to me.

[floyd]

Originally Posted by Wayne Collins

The one we have seen was done by a Frank Glugla in Wisconsin.
Basically he took off the axle, and mounted it on a flat bed, tandem axle trailer.
He cut off the original gooseneck hitch and braced it to the front frame of the trailer. It made the whole rig taller.
His reason for doing this, was so he could put a topper on his truck.

To explain the convertible aspect...
It has an adapter frame which attaches to the fifth wheel frame and includes the bumper hitch. It is pinned in place at the back and has a ball at the top which attaches at the fifth wheel hitch. It has space under the bed area which he has used to carry a very well made recumbent three wheeler which he built from scratch.

[floyd]

Originally Posted by Donna D.

Ask yourself this.... IF Scamp (Evelands) thought this was a good idea, don't you think they'd offer the 5er model as a bumper pull option? Think how wide of a buying audience that would open up. Lots of people would love that layout, but need a bumper pull. This would solve the problem. But Scamp (Evelands) won't build it. Ask yourself why not? They obviously know more about their product, frame weight limits, etc. than any of us.

I hardily disagree.
If what you say is true there would not be a single street rod ever built.

Some of each are marginal and many of which are orders of magnitude better than the OEM could even imagine. This is one of the latter.

[Jon in AZ]

Originally Posted by floyd

To explain the convertible aspect...
It has an adapter frame which attaches to the fifth wheel frame and includes the bumper hitch. It is pinned in place at the back and has a ball at the top which attaches at the fifth wheel hitch. It has space under the bed area which he has used to carry a very well made recumbent three wheeler which he built from scratch.

Floyd, did you ask Frank about the tongue weight of his set-up? From the "Trailer Weights" database, the average hitch weight of a regular Scamp 19 in OEM configuration is around 500-600 pounds. What did he pull it with? Weight-bearing or weight-distributing hitch?