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Old 07-15-2015, 11:09 AM   #61
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That FOMOCO label is much like the ones placed on factory hitches on GM vehicles and MAY NOT reflect the towing capacity of the vehicle to which it is attached. It is usually the rating for the hitch, not the vehicle. The disclaimer that FOMOCO includes at the bottom of the label states that "Ratings will vary depending on vehicle equipment. See Owners Manual for specific details" tells it all.


As an example: Even though the manual places towing limits as low as 2000 lbs. and as high as 5700 lbs on certain models, the label used on the factory installed hitches for Chevy Blazers & GMC Jimmy's, states a limit of 6000 lbs, which just happens to exceed, by at least 300 lbs, and as much as 4000 lbs, all of the Owners manual towing specifications for that range of vehicles to which it is attached.


Bottom Line: The towing specifications on the hitch are usually only for the hitch, refer to the owners manual for that vehicle for actual towing values.



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Old 07-15-2015, 11:16 AM   #62
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Name: Norm and Ginny
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Florida
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rob Outlaw View Post
In the short time we have owned our Oliver already we have had a few emergency situations and am thankful I DID NOT have something smaller than my F150 to handle this.
I went to the Ford towing site and did find mention in note 2 of WD for specific weights and configurations.

The Odyssey does not have a factory installed hitch but rather a dealer installed hitch. I'll check for a sticker, I'd be shocked it there's anything because I don't find anything in the manual.

I've towed for 8 years averaging over 7 months a year mostly with a Honda CRV, probably as many towing miles as anyone on the site. The Honda CRV was rated for 1500 lbs (3300 lbs in Europe) and a tongue weight of 220 lbs in both the NA and Europe.

I've had two 'emergency situations' towing a 2600 lb trailer with a tongue weight of 200 lbs, a tongue weight of about 7.5%. In both events the trailer was well behaved. In both cases we had our anti-sway bar in place. We initially towed without an anti-sway bar again without any issues, adding ithe anti sway because it was good insurance.

I believe a massive vehicle insures nothing except possibly over confidence and higher speeds. I have met two people who have lost control of their 'properly' connected trailers, both with rated vehicles, at least one with a WD hitch and still rolled the trailer. Knowledge is at least as important as equipment.
I believe there's also some one on this site that had a similar experience rolling a trailer with a rated vehicle or at least having a severe sway situation..

As a group we seem to focus on transferring information on equipment and very few word on towing knowledge or towing skills.
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Old 07-15-2015, 11:47 AM   #63
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Name: JD
Trailer: Scamp 16 Modified (BIGLY)
Florida
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When they did trailer testing in the 70s they found that the critical factor was the G loading that it took to get the combination to go from understeering to oversteering. The loading that they wound wad critical was 0.3 G lateral load.
Over 130 combinations were tested using nine trailers and five cars
Here is a graph from the tests referring results with a 2500 lb 15 ft travel trailer vs various car weights and tongue loading.



My VW Sportwagen weighs in at GVWR of 4454 and 200 lb hitch load puts it within the allowable range.

Excerpi fot section on trailer swing:



Summarized test results:



Just food for thought.

If someone would tell me how to upload a file I would be glade to upload the SAE J2807 testing requirements.
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Old 07-15-2015, 11:57 AM   #64
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As an aside the information as to skill and the time it takes to recognize an oscillation or other handling problem and correct (in the proper manner) is very short. This is why the electronic trailer stability is of such importance. I went to the trouble of purchasing from Germany the proper wiring kit and module to make the T-ESP for the VW work on my Sportwagen. This setup not only modifies the engine and transmission programming profiles for towing, but also engages the T-ESP that detects the incipient instability and corrects before the driver is fully aware of what is happening. The system will brake or add power to (front wheels for power of course) the individual wheels and control the over all throttle as required and also give steering clues to initiate proper direction of travel.
This system is REQUIRED in Europe! Along with tested and certified trailer load ratings and equipment! Trailer stabilization is just now coming into the US, but has been required in the Euro zone since 2006 for new cars and trucks including over the road tractor trailers.
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Old 07-15-2015, 12:14 PM   #65
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Tow conservative until you know "better".
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Old 07-15-2015, 06:42 PM   #66
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Originally Posted by George in New Mex View Post
We're new to all of this, just reading, nothing owned yet. Wife and I are considering a 17 ft. Casita or Oliver in a couple of years. We know our 4 cylinder car won't be adequate. We don't want to drive a gas hog, but do any of you have recommendations on the engine required in a tow vehicle to be able to comfortably pull such a trailer (long hauls on the interstates, up steep mountain roads, etc.? We would really appreciate recommendations.
I just lost my long response so if you don't want a Tacome/4-runner/highlander v6 or their equivalent, you should step down to a 16 Casita. Then you could consider fwd minivans or SUVs.

There is a spreadsheet on the site that lists member's tow vehicle/trailer combinations. You Will quickly see the what folks do with their own money.

Don't ask lawyers for towing advice - you won't have any money left for a trailer.
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Old 07-15-2015, 07:23 PM   #67
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Fwiw, I see that the Nissan Pathfinder is available with a V6 and with the tow package is rated to 5000 lbs. Might wanna check prices on those, as they don't seem to be ridiculously high.
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Old 07-15-2015, 07:33 PM   #68
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Why would one ask a Lawyer for towing advice?
But they are very handy for liability advice.... a $100 investment can save a million.....



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Old 07-15-2015, 11:17 PM   #69
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OK, here are the specs on my V70. It is a 2002, not a XC, but it is a turbo. It is a FWD.

The manual states:

Maximum trailer weight:
trailers without brakes: 1100 lbs
trailers with brakes 3300 lbs
recommended hitch tongue load is:
trailer weights below 2,650 lbs: 110 lbs
trailer weights above 2,650 lbs: 165 lbs
I'm worried that the tongue weight doesn't give me the options I thought I had. Yet, I'm seeing photos of Volvos towing dual axle Airstreams!

Ideally, I'd like to find a 16' Scamp (or similar) with shower, etc. If I could be assured this car could handle that w/o problems I'd really go for it! We do live in a river valley, and to travel anywhere else we need to go through mountains. To get to the coast, which is really only about 100 miles away, there are 4 summits (at least) to get over. So road-wise is really different from as the crow flies around here!

Thanks for the valuable discussion!

LP
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Old 07-15-2015, 11:25 PM   #70
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Stats didn't show in your post, but in any event, I'd be extremely reluctant to tow anything with an almost 14-year-old vehicle.
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Old 07-15-2015, 11:34 PM   #71
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Trailer: 1989 Lil Bigfoot
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Glenn Baglo View Post
Stats didn't show in your post, but in any event, I'd be extremely reluctant to tow anything with an almost 14-year-old vehicle.
Ah, well, I hear you on that. This vehicle only has around 95K miles, and has been REALLY well maintained. The hubby was a Volvo dealer for many years and is also a bit of a gearhead. He's not big on landscaping, but vehicle maintenance is high on his list of priorities. (maybe I should say vehicle "pampering," which is why he'd prefer not to tow with the V70)

I've told him that although I love this car, if it's going to prevent us from traveling with an RV, I'd prefer to sell it and buy something appropriate. But we did plan to keep this car for the long haul, and I'd like to keep it if possible.

LP
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Old 07-15-2015, 11:39 PM   #72
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Old 07-15-2015, 11:50 PM   #73
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Glenn Baglo View Post
Stats didn't show in your post, but in any event, I'd be extremely reluctant to tow anything with an almost 14-year-old vehicle.

MMMMMM, my '02 Ranger just turned 90K and I'd tow with it anywhere. There are many members here that have tugs with over 150K on them. It's all in the maintenance. You're not for using an older vehicle and I'm not interested in any vehicle that uses "by wire" controls or can park itself.
Different strokes
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Old 07-16-2015, 12:03 AM   #74
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Old 07-16-2015, 12:50 AM   #75
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This is my 4th Volvo and my favorite so far. We've seen these run up to 350,000 miles (no kidding) with proper care. I'd prefer to put any spare cash into an RV and keep my car for another 150K!
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Old 07-16-2015, 05:38 AM   #76
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Not necessarily in any order:


Most "Modern" cars, being 11 years old, (and with proper maintenance), in itself, should not be a disqualifying factor as long as the application is within the original vehicle specifications. These aren't your Grandfathers cars, that were ready for the recycle heap at 100,000 miles. My 2003 Sonoma was towing "as new" at 150,00 miles and I replaced it with an even more capable 2003 2 dr Blazer (albeit with only 50,000 miles) and find it even more ideal for my needs.


I looked at a range of owners manuals for the V70 and the strangely worded term "Recommended tongue weight" became "Maximum tongue weight" a few years later, basically meaning that it looks like you are stuck with the limitations of that figure. You can browse different year owners manuals for the V70 here:
Volvo Owner's Manuals | Volvo Cars


Ahhh Yes, the phenomenon of manufacturers towing limits being seen as only "suggestive". There appears to be exactly one hitch fabricator in the entire U.S. and Canada that takes this position and builds the very expensive set-ups on the Volvos and others you have seen pics of towing huge trailers that often exceed the manufacturers limits by 2-3 times published values.


It's the old story of just because you can do something doesn't mean that you should. I don't know of any fabricators in the lower 48 provinces that will touch this idea, suggesting that it must not be a very good one for safety and/or liability, either one, much less both, being a disqualifier.


At last count there were exactly 3 peeps on this site that disagree with following manufacturers maximum load recommendations and that, in it's self, should tell something.


What to do???? I wish I could offer a suggestion that doesn't involve either looking at smaller FGRV's or having another vehicle for towing.


I share your enthusiasm for Volvos, having owned at least a dozen of them before they became luxury vehicles, but those daze are long gone.



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Old 07-16-2015, 06:04 AM   #77
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Name: Norm and Ginny
Trailer: Scamp 16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob Miller View Post
Not necessarily in any order:
At last count there were exactly 3 peeps on this site that disagree with following manufacturers maximum load recommendations and that, in it's self, should tell something.
Hopefully with humor,

Peeps: people particularly people who are my friends.

Regardless of the meaning of peeps. I'm one of the three 'peeps'. We towed for 8 years all over North America with a Honda CRV rated for 1500 pounds in North America. We consciously decided to use the European rating for the CRV, over 3000 pounds.

We drove over 250,000 miles, probably half tow miles and never had a single issue towing or with the CRV, same clutch, never an engine problem.

One thing I've learned in life is those that stand alone are often those that make the difference. Last night I watched the History of Martin Luther. I was raised a Roman Catholic and told he was a heretic. In reality he was a true hero who made an enormous positive difference.

Of course choosing to tow with the Honda CRV is not a 'Luther'. However, standing alone, being described as one of 3 peeps, may actually be an honor.
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Old 07-16-2015, 06:06 AM   #78
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Name: JD
Trailer: Scamp 16 Modified (BIGLY)
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I guess I am another PEEP as well.
Being an engineer and a little experience in Europe all of the caravans over there are not operated by Top Gear. The show was great, but for entertainment, not engineering news.
Until J2807 the very strict ratings were more of an advertising gimmick.
SAE 2807 codified guidelines which are still voluntary for manufacturers. If you don't test to meet them you just can't advertise that it does.

Let me touch on the WDH thing again on trucks.

The lack of the WDH does not exactly cut the rating in half. Actually few trucks are rated to tow over 5000 lbs without a WDH, which is not the same.
Really after this point is really where SAE2807 comes into play. Manufacturers played fast and loose with the ratings for bragging rights over how much their trucks would tow, but the performance wasn't really there. This is why the tow up the mountain grade at Davis Dam was used. Maintaining speed all the way with at least 100*F temp and the A/C full blast to test the cooling, transmission, engine etc tells the tale. This grade is relentless and tough under these conditions.
The weight under "normal" conditions might not be so bad, but.........
Also my VW tow car is a 2009 with 240,000 miles. While I have not been to the Davis Dam road.

From J2807:

4.3.5.4 Procedure for Automatic Transmission-Equipped Vehicles
Select highest available forward gear position unless otherwise specified by tow-vehicle manufacturer. As the
combination begins ascent, accelerate as required to a speed between the minimum speed requirement specified in the
Table 3 Performance Attribute of Highway Gradeability for the tow-vehicle under test and the posted 45 mph speed limit.
When posted speed limit changes to 55 mph and again to 65 mph, it is the tow-vehicle tester’s choice to run at any speed
between the minimum speed requirement and the posted speed limit. The minimum speed requirement applies from the
Davis Dam turnoff (County Road 68), 1.3 km (0.8 miles) after the start of the test grade as shown in 4.3.5.2 to the end of
test run. Note the change to 55 mph posted speed limit occurs 1.4 km (0.9 miles) after the start of the test grade and the
65 mph posted speed limit occurs 3.7 km (2.3 miles) after the start of the test grade

4.3.5.5 Procedure for Manual Transmission-Equipped Vehicles
Run test in a manner similar to that for automatic transmission-equipped vehicles as detailed in 4.3.5.4. Shift transmission
per the tow-vehicle manufacturer’s instructions. It is the tow-vehicle tester's choice to run at any speed between the
minimum speed requirement and the posted speed limit. Wide open throttle and/or downshifting is permissible should
posted speed limit not be sustainable. Wheel spin is not permissible; if tires break loose, reduce throttle pedal force until
traction is resumed.

Again if someone can tell me how to upload the file for J2807 I have a PDF file.
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Old 07-16-2015, 07:20 AM   #79
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Old 07-16-2015, 07:22 AM   #80
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Name: Dave W
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Quote:
Originally Posted by redbarron55 View Post
...Again if someone can tell me how to upload the file for J2807 I have a PDF file.
Hey Red, I posted this link to a 2012 version of SAE J2807 in a previous thread. Is this same file as you are trying to upload? http://www.automotive-fleet.com/fc_r.../pdf/j2807.pdf
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