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Old 07-16-2015, 07:38 AM   #81
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Name: Jon
Trailer: 2008 Scamp 13 S1
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Originally Posted by Jon in AZ View Post
..."unit construction" (aka, unibody) means the frame of the vehicle and core upper-body structure are welded into one solid unit. Most modern passenger vehicles, including many newer SUVs, are built this way. The advantages include lighter weight and increased stiffness for better handling. Manufacturers of many unibody vehicles do not recommend using a WDH, and I suspect one reason may be the different way these vehicles are designed to handle stresses (I am speculating here…).

The alternative, older construction method is called "body-on-frame." The upper body structure is welded separately from the frame and bolted on. It is still used on most pick-up trucks (except a few passenger car-based trucks like the Honda Ridgeline) and some larger, truck-based SUVs (Tahoe/Suburban/Yukon, Expedition, Sequoia, 4Runner?, Armada, to name a few). It allows for a stronger frame for heavy-duty use. Use of a WDH is common in this class of vehicle...
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Originally Posted by MC1 View Post
Body on frame! Heavy duty??? They are nothing to write home about. The new SUV's which are top rated tow vehicles are unibody....ie... Ford Expedition, VW Touareg, BMW X5, etc. A WDH works great on them.
To clarify… I did not say that no unibody vehicle is rated for towing heavier trailers, nor did I say that no unibody vehicles are endorsed by the manufacturer for use with WDH. The Touareg is rated for 7700 pounds and the X5 for 6000 pounds. I don't know what either manufacturer says about WDH. The Expedition does not belong in that list. It is rated to tow up to 9200 pounds and remains body-on-frame. (The smaller Explorer used to be body-on-frame but is now unibody.) So I think it's fair to say that body-on-frame still remains the construction method of choice for heavy-duty towing applications.

I think we can agree, however, that few molded fiberglass trailers qualify as "heavy-duty applications," and that modern unibody vehicles make excellent tow vehicles for light- and medium-duty towing.

It remains that manufacturers do not endorse the use of WDH with the large majority of unibody vehicles. The manufacturer's language in most cases appears deliberately vague ("we do not recommend the use of a weight-distributing hitch with this vehicle" is what my Pilot's manual says), so the discussion will continue unabated. But it is clear to me, at least: if anything does go wrong, the manufacturer will not help.
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Old 07-16-2015, 03:14 PM   #82
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Name: JD
Trailer: Scamp 16 Modified (BIGLY)
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Hey Red, I posted this link to a 2012 version of SAE J2807 in a previous thread. Is this same file as you are trying to upload? http://www.automotive-fleet.com/fc_r.../pdf/j2807.pdf
It is close enough if not the same.
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Old 07-16-2015, 03:41 PM   #83
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The reason that fewer and fewer passenger cars are specifically rated to tow very much has a lot more to do with legal exposure for the manufacturer than it does with structural engineering.

Add into that the issue that there's no such thing as a statute of limitations on vehicle 'design faults' being discovered regardless of metal fatigue and repeatedly exceeding design limitations and you have a recipe for legal disaster. This is exactly what caused the US light aircraft industry to either go broke (Piper) or move production overseas (Cessna). It finally got bad enough that there is now a statute of limitations for airplanes, but I know of nothing similar for road vehicles. Even if there were, the manufacturers would still be worried about suits within the window of legal vulnerability.

The easy way out for a vehicle manufacturer is simply to say 'no' when the question of towing anything comes up. The only reason there are any towing ratings on any consumer vehicle in the US is because they know they would sell a lot fewer of some types if they weren't rated to tow. As people have 'forgotten' that their parents used to tow a boat or camper with the family sedan or station wagon, so have the sedans and station wagons (now called crossover vehicles and minivans) been derated as tow vehicles. Besides, profits are higher on truck-like vehicles than car-like ones.

Once the tow derating becomes a design parameter it actually becomes true. If there's no hardpoint on the rear of the vehicle to safely attach a WDH to, you probably shouldn't do it.

'Legal' derating is what you see when the same generation of vehicle has different tow ratings in different countries or year models. That's lawyers, not engineers talking. Whether or not you let the lawyers guide your TV decision is your own lookout.
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Old 07-16-2015, 06:48 PM   #84
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[QUOTE=honda03842;535105]

We towed for 8 years all over North America with a Honda CRV rated for 1500 pounds in North America. We consciously decided to use the European rating for the CRV, over 3000 pounds.

We drove over 250,000 miles, probably half tow miles and never had a single issue towing or with the CRV, same clutch, never an engine problem./QUOTE]

Norm, since you are so good natured, I will use you as an example.

I think it would be more helpful to point out what you are/were towing when providing a testimonial.

Especially given most newbies fascination with the Casita 17. Many don't realize the weight (tongue weight in particular) inherent in a Casita 17 and the impact on a tow vehicle.

Many of us aren't careful to distinguish between 16 vs 17 or 2001 vs 2015 once the fingers start flying. These distinctions can make a significant difference.

Thanks for all your insight!

Regards, Steve
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Old 07-16-2015, 07:37 PM   #85
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Ahhh Yes, the phenomenon of manufacturers towing limits being seen as only "suggestive". There appears to be exactly one hitch fabricator in the entire U.S. and Canada that takes this position.....
.......and isn't is amazing that the one hitch manufactures has such a high customer sat and respectable safety record. Could it be they know something you do not??
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Old 07-16-2015, 07:48 PM   #86
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Yep and millions of people are happy as can be with the brand of cigarettes that they smoke, but does that customer satisfaction make it a good idea either?



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Old 07-16-2015, 08:26 PM   #87
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[QUOTE=PC Steve;535206]
Quote:
Originally Posted by honda03842 View Post

We towed for 8 years all over North America with a Honda CRV rated for 1500 pounds in North America. We consciously decided to use the European rating for the CRV, over 3000 pounds.

We drove over 250,000 miles, probably half tow miles and never had a single issue towing or with the CRV, same clutch, never an engine problem./QUOTE]

Norm, since you are so good natured, I will use you as an example.

I think it would be more helpful to point out what you are/were towing when providing a testimonial.

Especially given most newbies fascination with the Casita 17. Many don't realize the weight (tongue weight in particular) inherent in a Casita 17 and the impact on a tow vehicle.

Many of us aren't careful to distinguish between 16 vs 17 or 2001 vs 2015 once the fingers start flying. These distinctions can make a significant difference.

Thanks for all your insight!

Regards, Steve
Sorry Steve. I'm a relatively prolific poster and most know the story. I've towed 3 trailers all within a few hundred pounds. The lightest was a 1982 Sunline 15.5 2200/200, followed by a much heavier 1995 Casita 16 with, as I recall a 240 lb tongue weight and finally our 1991 Scamp 16 2600/200 . We have towed the Scamp the most.

All trailers had a bathroom. The Casita had a front mounted AC under the front closet. The Scamp 16 has an AC in the bottom of the closet. Our Scamp can be seen at the following link, more than you'll ever want to know, 49 pages.

WE were offered a good deal on a 1995 Casita 17 but decided against it because was too heavy for our Honda CRV. It would have meant buying a new Tow vehicle. The lack of a front window in the Casita 17 made the trailer seem smaller than our Scamp 16.

Our CRV was a 2004, 4 cylinder, manual transmission Honda CRV. No suspension modifications, no WD hitch.

Glad to answer any questions or expand on something I've posted. I admit to making assumptions and am often cryptic.
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Old 07-16-2015, 09:08 PM   #88
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Actually, yes indeed, this newbie admits to being really fascinated with the Casita 17. What a great looking product! And....I started this thread because I intend to get a TV with sufficient power and structural integrity to make a heavy Casita or Oliver work. This forum is unbelievably helpful. Thanks again to everyone.
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Old 07-17-2015, 08:09 AM   #89
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Trailer: Scamp 16 Modified (BIGLY)
Florida
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I have followed this and other threads on tow vehicles and also I ten d to agree with Norm and his assessment of the capabilities of the smaller TV, especially the VW TDI.
While only rated 140 hp. the torque is rated at 240 ft/ lbs and comes in at a very low rpm and this is what does all of the work, really.
Where gas engines may develop more horsepower it is at the high end of the rpm band and the engines are working hard to get there.
The VW Jetta Sportwagon is the same platform as the taller Tiguan (which has a gas engine and slushbox automatic transmission) and weighs slightly less.
The DSG gearbox is six speed with the top two overdrive ratio and it tows the Scamp 16 easily and runs about 2000 rpm at 65 mph. The mileage is around 25 mpg and the car shows no signs of any distress even towing in the hill country of Texas in 110* heat.
The whole idea of these small molded trailers is the ability to tow with a normal car and get reasonable fuel mileage and have less hassle in doing so.
I have just completed installation of the Westfalia tow hitch and stabilization / trailer light module as is standard in Europe in my wife's new TDI which we bought to augment the 2009 TDI with 240,000 miles. The old car did not have the trailer electronic module, but did have the towbar installed.
Evidently the worthies who decide if and how much a Euro car can tow in the US don'r understand the difference between us pounds and kilograms and seem to rate the vehicles the same number in the US pounds as Kilograms in the rest of the world!
Personally I can do the conversion with little outside help and my personal opinion is that with the electronic stabilization and electric brakes the car can easily and safely tow the Scamp. Especially since I have lengthened the distance from the axle to the hitch by about a foot and oriented the major weight nearer to the axle and lower in the trailer.
My Scamp will be heavier than the original (I think, but I haven't finished the rebuild so it is just a guess) because of the reinforced and lengthened frame and the all wood oak cabinets and bulkhead walls and revised front bath.
I can forsee no problems towing safely with the Euro setup at all. Actually the T-ESP will make corrections and steering guidance before the driver detects and react to the incipient swaying. Usually the experts suggest making no corrective steering inputs since the drivers reactions are usually too great and are delayed enough to be out of phase with what is required and makes matters worse than no input at all.
I looked into the Casitas and especially the 17' since the 16' is too low for my wife's comfort. However it is considerably heavier and has too high a tongue weight for my vehicle choice. The Scamp has the headroom and is lighter and the tongue weight can be kept within the limits I have set for operations.
I can make no suggestions for anyone else, but this will work for me. Your Mileage may vary and all of the standard disclaimers apply:

Standard Disclaimer

Personally requiring a truck etc puts me out of the market for one of these light campers so that is a non-starter. If you run the cost up too high you might as well just drive a car and stay in a motel and eat in restaurants.
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Old 07-17-2015, 08:49 AM   #90
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We have heard the allegation earlier that the kgs. to lbs. conversion wasn't done and that the numbers were just carried over. But, if correct, that would only create a huge legal liability for VWofA as well as cut into sales, something that VWofA can ill afford.


Due to increased liability issues, Owners Manuals are now so carefully vetted before being released that I don't think that there is any real support for that claim.


And, as you pointed out, there are a lot of differences between the Euro version and the US version of your VW. Add to that, with much stricter towing laws and licensing regulations, not to mention stricter enforcement and penalties, the Europeans are bound enjoy higher towing weight limits.


As a point... Because there are places in the U.S. where a trailer can be legally towed at 80 MPH, is it no wonder that our towing limits are lower than Europe, where towing limits in some countries are more typically 80 KM/H (48 mph).


In Germany, only after taking 2 hours test, having a TUV inspection of both TV and Caravan, and about 70 euro's ($87 USD) can you get a special license to tow at 100KM/H..... Here's a reference:
Speed limits | Overseas Holidays | The Caravan Club



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Old 07-17-2015, 04:36 PM   #91
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RedBarron,

Please keep us updated on your excperience as you move forward. There are so many dimensions to towing, you can't experience them all yourself. I have always found the VW diesels appealing but I always gravitate to high volume boring gas models thinking that will get me lower long term maintenance cost. I look forward to living vicariously through you. Good luck with your experiment.
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Old 07-18-2015, 11:03 AM   #92
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RedBarron,

I have always found the VW diesels appealing but I always gravitate to high volume boring gas models thinking that will get me lower long term maintenance cost.
I feel somewhat the same way. These days the smaller gas engines performs really well and their reliability is great.
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Old 07-18-2015, 12:26 PM   #93
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I loved the simplicity of our four cylinder, manual transmission, 2.4 L gas engine 2004 Honda CRV. It never failed to get us and a 3 different 16 foot trailers up every severe mountain road including 18% gravel grades. It never required a driveline repair and outside of a couple of rubber boots, a fan, a thermostat, an oxygen sensor, and a brake rotor over 10 years and 250,000 miles.

I loved our gas powered Honda. When it came time to get a new one we tried to buy one of the new CRV diesels from Europe without success. We bought a Honda Odyssey as a result however it is much more complicated than our CRV hopefully as reliable.
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Old 07-18-2015, 01:05 PM   #94
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LP, interesting.... You can tow a Volvo with a motorcycle but as some have suggested it's a tough call whether or not to tow a small trailer with a Volvo.

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Old 07-18-2015, 01:26 PM   #95
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Once again, look at the number plates, that's apparently covered under the much more lenient European towing laws. However, wihout a special license and test, towing a vehicle with a motorcycle is limited to 10 Km/Hr. LOLOLOL



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Old 07-18-2015, 01:41 PM   #96
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George, a Grand Cherokee with 3.6L V6 or 3L turbodiesel would get good fuel economy, transport you in comfort, and enable you to go off-road. A new Laredo can be found for about $30K, or you can go all out for luxury and spend more.

If you like Toyotas, I've towed over 140,000 miles with my '08 Highlander. It now has 182,000 on the odometer and I've listed it for sale on CL (I bought a used Lexus GX 470). The HL was getting about 14 mpg with a 17' Burro in tow. 5000 lb. tow rating (max 500 lbs on the hitch weight). Not as thrifty as Tim's GC, but a capable and durable vehicle.
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Old 07-18-2015, 05:13 PM   #97
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Thanks for the suggestions, Michael. They all sound good.
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Old 07-18-2015, 06:42 PM   #98
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LP, interesting.... You can tow a Volvo with a motorcycle but as some have suggested it's a tough call whether or not to tow a small trailer with a Volvo.

Excellent thought! Perhaps I should begin a new thread exploring every possibility of towing whatever possible with our BMW R1200 RT.

Anyone have any info about WDH for the RT?

Oh, wait. That's the hubby's baby and he probably won't want to tow with THAT either! (I've looked at little cargo trailers we could tow with it and thus bring camping supplies and hair brushes, but again, who needs more than a board to sleep on and a crust of stale bread to eat?)
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Old 07-18-2015, 06:49 PM   #99
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https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/
Norm setup this spreadsheet that would be a big help in seeing what TV people are using to tow their trailers. A ton of good date to go through to help in your decision.

Stan
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Old 07-20-2015, 07:31 PM   #100
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Originally Posted by George in New Mex View Post
We're new to all of this, just reading, nothing owned yet. Wife and I are considering a 17 ft. Casita or Oliver in a couple of years. We know our 4 cylinder car won't be adequate. We don't want to drive a gas hog, but do any of you have recommendations on the engine required in a tow vehicle to be able to comfortably pull such a trailer (long hauls on the interstates, up steep mountain roads, etc.? We would really appreciate recommendations.
Hi George ..... From one who owned a new 17ft Casita a few years back, buy at least a 3/4 ton rated truck , van or Suv. I had a new 2012 Ford f--150 at the time with tow package & the trailer pushed me. As sated here ... do not skimp on your tow vehicle, it could cost you your life or some one dear to you. I am not trying to scare you but If your pocket book does not allow such a tow vehicle buy a smaller trailer. I know some will not agree but until you have lost control of your Tow vehicle and slam into a guard rail at 50 MPH, Yes only 50 MPH like I did you will understand. The heavy bodied F-150 was the only thing that kept me & my wife from being killed. For only $5,000. more I now Tow with a 3500 HD Nissan cargo Van which now out weighs my Oliver 2015 23'.6 trailer buy 2,300 pounds . Now with the additional weight upfront(tow vehicle) with the heavy duty frame, engine & transmission. I feel as safe as one can be while towing a trailer that weighs in at 5,000 pounds( I had weighed). I know some here will tow at 65 MPH or faster on the interstates but I will not go faster than 55 MPH. at anytime. No matter what trailer you do decide to purchase, the xtra pennies it will cost for a more expensive tow vehicle with lower gas mileage over your life time is not really giving up too much .... when considering your safety & the ones you are responsible for keeping safe.
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