New Scamp 13' height question

[Laura B.]

Hello. I'm new to this forum and to RVing and would like to start by thanking forum members for being so generous with their knowledge and experience; it has been a tremendous help in my decision making. There seems to be real community among FGRVers.

I would like to request your feedback on something I've been racking my brain over since the recent delivery of my new 2013, Standard 13' Scamp with front bathroom (shower only, no toilet). Scamp states that the hitch height should be about 18". With the Scamp leveled using a magnetic level on the Scamp's frame (underneath), the bottom of the coupler is at 12"--really low. It causes my front jack to drag going out my driveway and the safety chains hang so low I'm afraid they're going to catch on something. My tires are inflated to 45lbs. Is this normal? Any comments or suggestions will be very appreciated.
Laura

[Eddie Longest]

Welcome Laura
The 13 sets much lower than the other Scamps. The swing arms on the 13 axle are 22.5 deg. up. The swing arms on the other Scamps are 22.5 degree down. That is why the hitch height is so low on a 13. I raised a Scamp 13 about almost 3 inches by placing a 0 degree axle under it.
To stop the chains from dragging twist them before hooking up. My 13 I had swing up side mounted jack and I had no problems with it dragging before the lift. If your has a jack in the center of the frame that does not swing up you could modify the jack to make it shorter but you may have to carry a block or add a swing up foot to give you more ground clearance.
Eddie

[Laura B.]

Thanks so much, Eddie. I'm relieved that it doesn't indicate some kind of problem with the trailer. By swing arm, do you mean the A-frame tongue part of the trailer that is welded to the frame? (I'm working to learn RV lingo).

My front jack doesn't swing up, so I'm taking the foot off it so I can crank it up higher before I drive.

[Eddie Longest]

Laura
Removing the foot should help with the clearance problem. The swing arm is the part of the axle that the spindle is mounted to. The attached file explains how arm angle affects the spindle/trailer height. FYI: you have a #9 Torflex 22.5 deg. up arm configuration. More than likely more information than you need to know but the pictures should help explain things in relation to axle angles.
Eddie
http://l.b5z.net/i/u/6149609/f/Trail...nformation.pdf

[Laura B.]

Ah, a diagram is worth a thousand words. Thanks, this is very helpful.

[Laura B.]

I'm not sure if there is an answer for this, but just wondering, don't axles have some kind of QA tolerance associated with them? Scamp states for 13' approx. 18" and reality is 14". A four inch difference between literature and reality? Doesn't seem right.

[Gilda]

Laura,
We bought a new 13' Scamp in 2011 and came across the same issue of dragging the chains and hitch. We tow with a Subaru Legacy. Basically, we plan ahead when driving over a steeply pitched driveways (or avoid them alltogether) especially in gas stations. We find if it's a wide driveway we can go over it at an angle rather than head-in. It's a rather annoying issue, especially when the car is not towing but it's just something we got used to and adapt for. We hope you enjoy your Scamp as much as we do!

[Carol H]

Laura, I would not worry so much about what the actual height Scamps states to tow it at is - as its an approximate height used to help give you a guide line for setting up the trailer - I cant recall if the height Scamp gives was to the top of the ball or not, Whats most important is that the trailer when loaded up be level once hooked up - which may translate to a different height - depending on how much you have stored ahead of the axle in the trailer and how much your tugs rear sags once hooked up. As others have suggested removing the foot off the tongue jack if possible may help or switching over to a jack that is mounted to the side of the tongue.

[Laura B.]

Thanks Carol. Your comments bring up a source of confusion I'm having with loading. I'm towing with a 2012 Subaru Outback which has a 200lb tongue weight limit. I am heavy in front, so I added about 100lbs of water to the tanks in back. Shouldn't it act like a see-saw and balance out the weight? It doesn't seem to be working.

Also, don't I want to keep the frame level at all times, especially so I don't drop the back of the TV?
Thanks,
Laura

[Carol H]

Funny you should ask I having just retired my Subaru Outback from towing after 6 years due to the issues of the limited tongue weight limit so I can relate to your problems. *BUT* I was towing a 16' with it and had to run with it at about 40lbs over the tongue limit to get a stable tow but that was due to its heavier axle weight than your 13'. I would think you would have little problem getting 10% or more on the tongue of your 13' without adding water to the rear & still stay under 200lbs. I loved how well the Outback towed so I think with a 13' once you get it set up right you should not have to fuss or worried much with it at all.

First I would not add water to the rear to fix the problem. Water or anything else at the very rear with a tongue that is on the light side to start with is not a good thing - trust me on that! sway is not a nice feeling! Yes you can add an anti sway bar but it will be called to use way more than it should be - should only be needed in extreme situations. Just in case no one has told you the best way to stop sway yet - there is a lever on your brake controller that you use. Do not use the brakes on the car. If the trailer starts to sway just use the controllers lever never the cars brakes.

Have you weighed the trailers tongue with the trailer *sitting level* to see how far over you actually are? Put a level not only on the tongue but at mid point on the trailer body itself - you may find there is a little bit of a difference. I would think that a 13' Scamp even with the shower up front isnt going to weigh anymore than 1500/1600lbs loaded on the axle (based on looking at the real world trailer weights thread) which means if your tongue weight at say 160lbs would be at 10% or slightly more which should give you due to the wheel base on the Outback a good solid tow. There should be no need to go over the 200lb limit on the tongue unless you have things other than the propane tank and battery that are really heavy stowed at the very front of the trailer. I know your manual says you can go as low as 8% on the tongue but personally I tried that and it wasnt good if you plan on driving at over 55 mph - that number may work ok with a boat but not a TT. I would rather not have to count so highly on a sway bar to keep me out of trouble. Personally think 10% or higher is better. Depending on what hitch manufacture/style you are using you may find you need to use a drop receiver on the tug to get the trailer level - I have to use a 2' drop receiver on my Outback with the current hitch that is on it - the first hitch I used only had a 1" drop receiver.

Even though I have drop receiver on the car nothing has ever hit the ground or come overly close to hitting the ground - even over big speed bumps at speed, so I am a little puzzled a to why your 13' would be having such issues. I know that the 13' do sit a bit lower to start with than a 16' but due to my trailers age I do know the axle has sagged a little so would not think it that much higher than a 13'. The rear of your Outback is higher so the hitch sits much higher than on a Legacy so it doesn't make sense to me that the tongue should be coming close to bottoming out. Unless you have the trailer with the nose to far down, which would also account for why it may be over 200lbs on the tongue as well.

Rather than putting weight at the extreme rear its way better if you add some weight closer to trailers axle - just over it or behind it if your to heavy on the tongue. Try moving things around a little bit inside the trailer. If you have everything stored in the front hatches and not much in the middle or rear that can be a problem. How I dealt with changing tongue weights due to my propane tanks state changes or occasionally having to drive a short distances with water in the rear tanks when going dry camping was to use a large rubbermaid tote that contained all my power cords, power adaptors, blocks, hoses, jacks, etc. It all adds up weight wise. Put it in the trailer in the middle of the kitchen when traveling - move it back or forward depending on the state of tongue weight. If I had water in the rear tanks the box was always moved forward of the axle. If no water in the rear the box sits right over the axle. Depending on where your hot water tank is located in your 13 adding water to it if its just a bit behind the axle may also take some weight off the tongue if your really have to but due to it being close to the axle its not going to have the same negative impact of having the weight at the extreme rear.

If you are still struggling with it post a picture of your set up with the car and trailer sitting on a flat road as others may have some further suggestions as to how to correct your problem.

[Carol H]

Originally Posted by Laura B.

Also, don't I want to keep the frame level at all times, especially so I don't drop the back of the TV?
Thanks,
Laura

Laura I think you really do want to keep it level at all times - traveling with the tongue up is not a good thing. Assuming your not filling the Outback up with people in the rear and lots of stuff in the back of the TV you should not have a noticeable drop with 160 or 170lbs on the tongue or at least my 07 didnt drop more than perhaps an inch with 200lbs or more on it.

[Laura B.]

Thanks for your response, Carol. I love my Subaru, although they're kind of rarely sighted down here in So. Cal. The 13' really was about all could see that would work with the tongue limit. Even a Casitas 13' is too heavy. Sorry to hear you retired your Subaru.

I think I must be doing something basic wrong. I took the Scamp to a CAT weigh station and dry (no tanks, no battery, but with a 15lb wheel jack attached back on the a-frame) the tongue weight was 180lbs. I verified that at home with a bathroom scale. I use a magnetic level attached underneath the body, as the a-frame is way off level from the body (maybe I should level on the a-frame part of the tongue instead, which would raise the tongue up?) But it actually looks level when I look at the whole set up from a distance.

I was surprised when I expected to have to use a 2" rise to get to 18" and ended up using a 2" drop. This pulls the car down a little, but not too bad.

[Carol H]

Yuppers something is *really* wrong if it weighed in at 180lbs on the tongue without propane or battery.... sounds like the tongue is sitting way to low or you are not doing it on level ground. Put the trailer on level ground and put the level on the tongue on the frame beam back by the battery and propane tank will sit and get it level then weigh it. Then add your tank and battery and then put everything you are going to be carrying in the kitchen area and rear hatches etc and then weight it again.... as that will change it again.

[Jared J]

As a side note, safety chains should not be twisted. That greatly weakens them. If they need to be shortened, shorten them.

[Laura B.]

Very good to know that 180lbs is way out of line. Wasn't sure how much the front bath added. Sounds like I'm leveling at the wrong place which is really bringing the hitch too low and the tongue weight up. I'll see how it goes leveling near the battery and changing the ball mount to that height. Thanks a lot for all the suggestions.

[RogerDat]

I level along the top of the fridge door. It's mounted to the floor and is manufactured square so the top edge of the fridge is parallel to the floor. Got into that habit with a propane fridge which has to be level to function properly.

Prior advice about not using heavy weight in the rear to reduce tongue weight is pretty good advice. The people who get all tech about it can explain it better but it boils down to sway is made worse by large amounts of weight placed further from the axle in both directions.

On the other hand you should be able to tow with water in the tanks, might need to shift load around inside. As suggested possibly take a bin stored under the rear table and move it forward to over the axle area when towing with water.

Do you by any chance have dual batteries or dual propane tanks on the tongue?

[ruscal]

Laura,
You are getting some good advice here. First thing I would suggest is to throw away the level and walk back about 50' from your rig when it is hooked up to the tug. Look to see that the trailer is parallel to the street. You can use the aluminum strip on the side of the trailer for reference. (belly band) That way the road you are parked on doesn't have to be level. Leveling the trailer is for parking with the fridge running. Next make any adjustment to the drawbar by swaping it out for the correct rise to achieve that sweet parallelness to the road. Then you could assess the situation with the jack. If it still is too low to comfortably exit driveways, I would simply cut it off so it has enough clearance. Pick up one of those yellow plastic nose cones from Camping World to eliminate a lot of cranking and it spreads the load out on softer ground. Then you should be riding cool. A low trailer probably matches up with your tug pretty well.
Enjoy,
Russ

PS
I forgot a step. When you look at the car when hooked up check how much suspension sag the tug has. If it looks too low you may have to give it some help with springs or airbags. to compensate for the 200 lbs on the hitch. Then do the drawbar and other stuff.

[Borrego Dave]

Good reply Russ, I was thinking of saying the same thing, eyeballs work great, keep it simple. Really no matter what angle the rode is the belly band is the best straight line reference point to use. When I picked up my SD 17 my reversed 2" stinger worked fine with my Ranger. I ended up putting a lift kit on the SD because of where I travel and borrowed a 4" drop from a friend which I reversed for a lift and did a test run.....perfect.

[Carol H]

Originally Posted by RogerDat

Do you by any chance have dual batteries or dual propane tanks on the tongue?

Rodger she indicated she doesnt have a battery or propane tanks on the tongue and empty the trailer is weighing in at 180lbs on the tongue. Its a front bath Scamp but it doesnt have a toilet. Hope someone with a front bath 13' will weigh in and give us there actual loaded weights for comparison.

Dave I also have levels stuck to the trailer at the bellyband as well as a bullseye type level on the tongue to give me side to side level, they come in handy to have when setting up at camp, never have to go looking for them! LOL Both levels when the trailer is level read pretty well the same.

[Laura B.]

RogerDat, the tongue weight of 180lbs is without the 2 tanks or battery and with an empty trailer and then when I add them, it's a whole other thing because my tongue is then way over my 200lb limit-which has been keeping me in my Driveway Campsite. I will try the refrigerator level and then just eyeballing the bellyband as suggested. Maybe I should do that on a CAT scale where the ground is level? Really appreciate all the suggestions.