Re-installing side windows in a Scamp?

[Bill Nolen]

Jim, I'd be the last person qualified to give advice on rivets!

Due to my endless griping, I fear that many of the knowledgeable members no longer read the messages on this thread.

If you really want answers to your questions, I'd suggest that you start a new thread on the subject of RIVETS.

Best wishes,

Bill

[piperjim]

Bill:

Thanks, I think that is a good suggestion! Seems to be a lot of rivet discussion ongoing recently.....must be spring!!!

Thanks, safe travels.

[RogerDat]

Spring when Scamp owners hearts turn to thoughts of.... rivets?

McMaster-Carr

From this source you want Blind. Domed aluminum rivet, aluminum shaft. I'm not sure but possibly LG stands for Length from head to end of rivet tube that is what it looks like in their diagram. Not the same as how thick of material can be joined because some of the tube has to be expanded by the shaft.

Grip range of material is in the chart for that type of rivet. You can enter the thickness of what you are joining in the section on the left and it will filter the rivets listed to those that can handle that thickness range. Decimal inch entry. 1/4 inch becomes .25

Don't need steel shaft or countersunk or stainless.

Most hardware stores and people would call blind rivets pop rivets. They are called "blind" because you can install them into a hole that does not go through the underlying materials, partially through holes are called blind holes. Also you can install them without having to be able to access or see the back side where the rivet expands.

When installing a scamp window from the outside with a rivet you are "blind" to the inside of the camper.

Some rivets you have to access both sides to roll the end such as the tubular ones. Think pictures of those guys working to build the empire state building, those big round things are tubular rivets. The shaft ends in a tube that can be rolled outwards.

Bill? Bill who? ;-)

[stevebaz]

Originally Posted by piperjim

Not to hijack the thread, but an associated question for this rivet newbie.

Can someone give me a lesson on "how to order the right rivets"? I need to re-seal some windows on my 2002 Scamp. I'm looking at the McMaster-Carr website and I see, in the blind rivets, corrosion resistant blind rivets, sealing blind rivets, high-strength blind rivets, just to mention a few of the more obvious choices.

I see different materials, too.....steel, aluminum, stainless steel, etc. Aluminum with steel mandrel, Then, "dome installed" and "countersunk installed".

Then there are the sizes!!! Diameter is pretty straightforward, but what about head diameter and head height?

And the big mystery to me....the "Lg" dimension as shown on the McMaster-Carr website? How to you select the right size here? If you use a backup washer, don't you have to figure its thickness into selecting the right Lg dimension?

Thanks,

The LG length is the dimension of the rivet under the head. This is not the compressed length. If you go to Mc Master Carr and pick one of the rivets you think you want. Click on the part number to order. A window will pop up on that particular rivet. In that window there is a link to product detail. In that product detail you will get the dimensions of the rivet and its grip range which is not the same as the LG length. The grip range is the thickness of everything you want to clamp together with the rivet including a back-up washer if you use one.

The issue with Scamps is they use acorn nuts as inside trim and you want the rivet to go through the material stack and into the acorn nut. Here the LG length is important since you need the grip range of the rivet and the extra material inside the nut. If the rivet is too long the nut sets up the rivet before pulling the stack tightly together. too short the rivet sets up on the stack and it doesn't properly grab the nut.

Normally for trailer use where your compressing a sandwich of fiberglass materials you would be using an aluminum rivet with an aluminum shank or pull pin. Stronger materials you can use tougher rivets of different materials. The tougher the rivet and shank the harder they are to pop. squeeze the stack too hard you risk crushing the materials your trying to hold together.

If you use a back-up washer and you should, it should be of the same material as the rivet body and should be on the stack of material farthest from the head of the rivet. Rivet back up washers are not normal washers they are held to more precise tolerance in the hole size to properly fit the rivet. The rivet is put through the stack and the washer is put on the rivet and then pulled. The rivet balls up the end against the washer and pulls the stack tight. At the proper load on the rivet the pin snaps and releases the stack from the gun. The swelled shank end of the rivet puts the load on the washer and the head of the rivet applying the force evenly through their diameters of the rivet head and washer. With out support from the washer or acorn nut, the ball of the rivet is more likely to crush the material you are trying to clamp with the rivet risking failure and pull through especially if your replacing an old rivet.

Hope this gives you the information you were seeking.

[RogerDat]

The one downside to a backup washer is the need for someone inside to hold the washer on, not a big deal.

Also on older scamps the acorn nut and rivet size are not a good match for what is currently available. Even a really good hardware store does not carry the same diameter acorn nut. They skip from number sizes to fraction of an inch, skipping the number size mine used. I bought the # size one smaller which was the largest they had before going way too big. Drilled the threads to fit the rivet. Still had some threads left to grip the rivet. Seems to have worked so far.

[Bill Nolen]

Roger, and Steve, great information!

Thanks for posting it!

Bill

[piperjim]

Thanks guys for the useful information!! This helps a lot.

Let me ask if you'll check an example, just to see if I'm understanding this 100%. For instance, let's say that I want to remove/replace a window in my Scamp so I can replace the leaking silicone caulk with butyl tape, OK?

Let's say the fiberglass is 0.125" thick (I'm just making these numbers up).
Let's say the aluminum window frame is 0.075" thick.
Let's say that I can work the back of the frame and install backup washers that are 0.0625" thick.

So, adding these up, I have (0.125 + 0.075 + 0.0625) = 0.2625".

And, let's say I have a 1/8" hole which held the old rivet.

Looking at the McMaster-Carr site I would need to order part number: 97447A125, right? This is an aluminum blind rivet with aluminum mandrel, domed, 1/8" diameter, .251"-.312" material thickness.

Do I need to allow anything for the butyl tape? If so, how much?

Anything else.....like the rivet tool. I'm guessing the cheap ones at Harbor Freight are to be avoided? Get a quality tool from the McMaster-Carr website while I'm at it?

Thanks again for the useful information!!!

[stevebaz]

You are correct.
If you have compressed air available the Harbor Freight pnumatic rivet gun works well and makes life easier. You want the smaller blue one. Otherwise look for rivet guns with longer handles especially once the rivets are larger than 1/8 inch dia.

[piperjim]

Steve:

Thanks for reviewing my homework assignment!!

What about the butyl tape, do I have to "allow" something for the thickness of butyl tape when calculating the material thickness?

I'll check into the pneumatic rivet tool.....another good excuse to buy more tools!!

Thanks again,

[Bill Nolen]

Originally Posted by piperjim

Steve:

Thanks for reviewing my homework assignment!!

What about the butyl tape, do I have to "allow" something for the thickness of butyl tape when calculating the material thickness?

I'll check into the pneumatic rivet tool.....another good excuse to buy more tools!!

Thanks again,

The pneumatic rivet tool I borrowed is the model sold by Harbor Freight. It is so easy to use, and leaves one hand free to hold the work being riveted.

I have a small $39.00 Blue Hawk air-compressor that will pull/set 1/8" rivets at about 40 lb of pressure, and 3/16 rivets at about 60 lb of pressure.

I'd buy a pneumatic rivet gun for myself...except the price is about $95.00 at HF. But, considering the number of rivets use on Scamp trailers, one might be well worth the price! IMHO.

Bill

[RogerDat]

Jim
In most cases the butyl tape added into the thickness is within the grip range, the butyl tape compresses as the rivet draws tight. Sometimes squeezing out the sides. I use the tip of a toothpick to trim it flush with the joint. Works best when it is not too cold out. Butyl tape is pretty soft when warm.

If you find the butyl tape make things a little too thick press the part in tighter to compress the butyl tape a bit before doing the rivet. That is the beauty of the butyl tape, compresses to fit and seal.

You won't regret having a good hand rivet tool. Air might be nice but you won't replace rivets very many times and you will probably want the hand tool and a few rivets in your camper tool kit for any field repairs. That said the one thing HF tools are noted as a good choice for is the single job tool purchase. Bought an air stapler to install insulation, never used it again but it lasted that job so I was happy.

[stevebaz]

The Harbor freight rivet tool is put on sale often and with their common 20 % off coupon that usually gets close to half price. If you don't get their coupons or mailers sign up online and they send you coupons and sale information almost twice a month.

[RogerDat]

Originally Posted by stevebaz

The Harbor freight rivet tool is put on sale often and with their common 20 % off coupon that usually gets close to half price. If you don't get their coupons or mailers sign up online and they send you coupons and sale information almost twice a month.

Google Harbor Freight 20 percent off. That coupon is almost always available online. Heck at the register they can scan it off of a smart phone so people in line at the cashier will search for it, find it and get the discount.

If I can use it up or it is a tool I only need once or seldom HF is my go to place. Not so much for things I want to really last or use regularly. Did buy a dutch oven there for around $20 with sale and coupon. Would have been over $40 anyplace else.

Bought the oscillating tool I use for cutting fiberglass tabbing to replace the front floor section of the camper. Figure if this one breaks and I find I'm using it enough I may buy a better one to replace it. Otherwise it will have served its purpose at a good price.

If however they sent me flyers via email I would be broke in 6 months.

[piperjim]

Thanks guys!! I think I'm all set now to tackle that window job......as soon as I finish the leaking toilet valve and bathroom interior patch, and the wash/wax and new snap caps....LOL!! Am having fun working on these small projects and learning more about our Scamp!!

Thanks for the help and guidance!

[Bill Nolen]

Rain! Rain! Rain!

Did it ever rain here in OKC last night! We had somewhere in excess of 7-inches fall on us is only about 5-hours.

Twelve tornadoes hit Oklahoma in that 5-hours, but, once again we were luckly, as the closest tornado hit at least 5 miles away from our home.

This use to be called "Tornado Alley", but now it should be re-named "Tornado Super Highway"!

The water was flowing like a river across our property. I once looked out and thought that any minute I'd see my Scamp 13 float by. However, I should have known better...because it was full of rain water from all the leaks...and couldn't float!

That was my rain-leak joke for the day...so smile!

Actually, considering how hard it was raining, and how much rain was falling, the insides of the Scamp was very dry. Much dryer than I expected, because we had water flowing into our garage (where our tornado shelter is located) and into our house's entry doorway.

The one-acre pond back of our house, was about half full before the rain. Now it's full and overflowing it's spillway!

We have been advised to expect the same weather for the next three days!

Pray for us Okie's!

Bill

[artrageous]

Originally Posted by Bill Nolen

Pray for us Okie's!
Bill

Oklahoma has, indeed, had some violent weather... Just don't think I could live out there; glad to hear you have a shelter!

But I'd actually take just a wee bit of your rain to see if we've finally managed to stop all the leaks in our trailer! We put the passenger side rear window back in last weekend (it uses screws, not rivets) and tried to seal up every area elsewhere that could POSSIBLY leak. Need to test that with some rain before starting to install the marine headliner fabric and moving on to other projects for our re-do....

[Bill Nolen]

Originally Posted by artrageous

Oklahoma has, indeed, had some violent weather... Just don't think I could live out there; glad to hear you have a shelter!

But I'd actually take just a wee bit of your rain to see if we've finally managed to stop all the leaks in our trailer! We put the passenger side rear window back in last weekend (it uses screws, not rivets) and tried to seal up every area elsewhere that could POSSIBLY leak. Need to test that with some rain before starting to install the marine headliner fabric and moving on to other projects for our re-do....

I do understand your need for a good hard rain! After a water-hose test I believed my Scamp had only a couple of leaks. No problem, right?

Wrong! After a couple of previous rain storms, I discovered at least a dozen leaks...some that I'm still trying to trace to the source. Nothing that in time that I won't find and seal, but until ALL THE LEAKS ARE STOPPED I can't do the more interesting projects that I have in mind.

Th one leak that really bugs me is the leaking roof vent. It's the old type roof vent with the pull chain. It's going to be hard for me to reach to reseal. I have several 14" roof vents that I bought at a RV Co. parts sale, and should install one, I guess.

It's raining hard...I believe I saw some cats and dogs falling.....

Bill

[artrageous]

Originally Posted by Bill Nolen

Nothing that in time that I won't find and seal, but until ALL THE LEAKS ARE STOPPED I can't do the more interesting projects that I have in mind.
Bill

Right there with you....

We started with a shell, so we've got a lot to do--STILL--to make it ready for even the most basic camping.

[frankcfx]

I use the cheeep pneumatic pop rivet tool from HF and it works well. Warning.....it uses hydraulic oil in it, it is an air over oil system with the large air cylinder pressurizing the smaller hydraulic piston which does the retracting of the jaws. Maybe a little confusing explanation but basically accurate. I over filled my unit and it pumped oil for a time. I now wrap a shop towel around it to keep the oil from getting on the fiberglass. At present that is just a safe guard. Th air pop rivet gun I used when I worked at the Apache trailer plant had a four inch air cylinder so it had enough force when using 110 shop air.

[Bill Nolen]

Originally Posted by frankcfx

I use the cheeep pneumatic pop rivet tool from HF and it works well. Warning.....it uses hydraulic oil in it, it is an air over oil system with the large air cylinder pressurizing the smaller hydraulic piston which does the retracting of the jaws. Maybe a little confusing explanation but basically accurate. I over filled my unit and it pumped oil for a time. I now wrap a shop towel around it to keep the oil from getting on the fiberglass. At present that is just a safe guard. Th air pop rivet gun I used when I worked at the Apache trailer plant had a four inch air cylinder so it had enough force when using 110 shop air.

Frank, how much oil is the "right" amount of oil to add before using the pneumatic tool?

A few drops, or more? I received no instructions or manual when I borrowed my friend's pneumatic rivet tool.

Bill