How long will battery last...

[NedMac]

Originally Posted by floyd

Also , as counterintuitive as it sounds.... Never sleep in a heated fiberglass trailer without cracking the roof vent just a little(even a quarter inch) to carry some of the condensation out.

Floyd,
That's indeed what we've done in the past, but mainly because of the inherent worry that comes with the use of the portable heater! We considered buying one of those insulated pads to insert into the roof vent, but would you recommend against this and instead cover the windows?

[NedMac]

Originally Posted by RogerDat

Condensation makes it damp and damp makes it seem colder that is for sure. I would look into a modest solar panel attach a controller to the back and a set of plugs to attach it to at the battery.


Might be talking a little over a hundred dollars. Or maybe just under. Nice to have a 100 watt or better solar set up but even a 40 or 50 watt panel can extend your camping duration. You may not get the battery back to 100% charge but if you replace even 50% of your usage and battery without solar lasts 2 days now it will last 3. Or instead of running out of power on the second day now you can go for two full nights and days.

Just because I have no idea of the knowledge level of the OP or who might read this in the future I'll mention that when plugged into power at a campground most campers will run the furnace off of a converter and keep the battery charged. So the battery won't run down at all.

Wear a stocking cap and socks to bed, good insulating covers and the certain knowledge that eskimo toddlers did not freeze. Then kick the heat on in the morning.

This may seem counter intuitive but don't over dress in bed clothes. Your body heat is what heats the space under the covers. Bundled in clothes even a down sleeping bag won't get warm. Long johns, stocking cap, dry socks and a good winter bag are what I used in a tent at -10 and while getting up to take a leak was a tribulation I slept warmly.

That's a great point, eskimo toddlers didn't freeze! We won't be camping in the middle of winter, just late fall with cold nights. I am the OP with very LITTLE knowledge about campers so your insight is appreciated. Considering little heaters run almost $100 anyway, I'm very interested in solar power. Are there products out there specifically made for a situation such as this? Or would I need to jerry-rig something? Or should I say find someone that could do it for me

[NedMac]

Originally Posted by Franswa

I have had batteries explode right in front of me TWICE (ten years apart)....both times the batteries had been completely discharged quickly (not supposed to do that to our deep cycle batteries but that is beside the point...this is what to expect when a battery explodes)

I will definitely give great consideration before charging the batteries off the TV! Thanks! Glad you're still alive.

[Bob Miller]

Originally Posted by NedMac

I would say it's an issue at any age! If you are referring to the portable heaters, they are made nowadays to prevent such an issue. Thank you for your concern! We used one before & considered opening a window out of instilled fear, which became counter-productive

Many portable heaters include the instruction to provide a fresh air source when using and to not use in an enclosed space. when in doubt:
1. Read the instruction
2. If you don't have the instructions, look them up on-line.
3. If you still can't find the instructions, open a window or a roof vent slightly when using
4. If you still can't find the instructions and you don't want to open a vent, be sure your insurance payments and Will are current.

[NedMac]

Originally Posted by Bob Miller

Many portable heaters include the instruction to provide a fresh air source when using and to not use in an enclosed space. when in doubt:
1. Read the instruction
2. If you don't have the instructions, look them up on-line.
3. If you still can't find the instructions, open a window or a roof vent slightly when using
4. If you still can't find the instructions and you don't want to open a vent, be sure insurance payments and you Will is current.

Bob you & Carol are correct. Although they are advertised for use in small spaces, the fine print says "This heater is safe for indoor use in small recreational enclosures, having means for providing combustion air and ventilation, such as enclosed porches, cabins, fishing huts, trailers, tent trailers, tents, truck caps and vans."

So let's take the portable heater off the table. I'm pretty interested in this solar power!

[Bob Miller]

RE: Charging Batteries with Jumper Cables


Basically, every battery charger found in service stations, garages and auto supply stores used to charge customers batteries are attached with a removable cables and, as Franswa pointed out, if you use them incorrectly, or if something has been wired incorrectly, there is some risk involved.


However, when done with a modicum of care, the "Real World" risk is so low that the advantages outweigh those risks. The following rules always apply:


1. Always know which battery post is + and which is - on both batteries.
2. Use only color coded jumper cables with secure tight clamping ends
3. Always connect to the battery being charged first.
4. On the TV, always connect to the + post on the battery first, then connect to a known good ground at least 12" away from the TV's battery.


I have had one battery explode, when I was 16 years old and was clueless about battery safety. I have gotten slightly older and substantially wiser since then and have never had or even seen a repeat of that problem.


And, BTW, charging from the TV poses no intrinsic risk to the battery itself as seemed to be suggested.

[floyd]

Originally Posted by NedMac

I will definitely give great consideration before charging the batteries off the TV! Thanks! Glad you're still alive.

Like any activity, the risk goes down as the understanding and skill goes up. Like pumping gas or changing a tire.

"When in doubt... don't" is a great slogan but it can prevent accomplishing anything in life.

Read Bob Miller's post #26 again.

[Carol H]

Originally Posted by NedMac

Bob you & Carol are correct. Although they are advertised for use in small spaces, the fine print says "This heater is safe for indoor use in small recreational enclosures, having means for providing combustion air and ventilation, such as enclosed porches, cabins, fishing huts, trailers, tent trailers, tents, truck caps and vans."

So let's take the portable heater off the table. I'm pretty interested in this solar power!

Good plan! ;-) The propane furnace built into your trailer is very usable & safe to use when off the grid.

I have a 92 16' with the original equipment and I camp off the gird fairly often including in cold/wet early spring & early fall here on the wet coast and November/December trips to the south in winter. I have a group 27 battery. I use the propane built in heater when off the grid. Although a power hog I like using it as a its plumbed in to run safer than a gas portable heater & I do not need to worry about anyone accidentally knocking it over while moving around in the dark of the trailer in the middle of the night, searching for a glass of water or what ever. It also one less loose item to have to put away and try and find a place to store when traveling.

I do not run the furnace all night though. Normally just turn it on as needed - i.e. just before bedtime and again in the mornings. I set it at the lowest setting when sleeping and often it does not come on more than a couple of times during the night. In really cold conditions if it is coming on frequently I simple turn it off.

I have replaced the curtains in my trailer and lined them with a thermal liner that have a bit of a plastic film on the outside facing the window and that works pretty well. It keeps the curtains from soaking up moisture. I have also cut out some reflective insulation to put into the roof vents as well as the large back window but to be honest have only brought them along a few times and used.

I have updated all the lights to LED and the only other items I use for power are the water pump for dishes and showers and the charging up of phones and cameras and Laptops. Fridge and hot water tank run on propane. If I am going to stay up reading for a long time at night I simple use a small head lamp to save power.

I like to keep an eye on my battery state and don't let it drop below 50%. If I am only using the furnace first thing in the morning for and last thing at night easliy get by for at least a few days before I feel a need to put the solar panel out for the day for a recharge. If pushed I could probable go longer if it was necessary. I just like to stay well ahead of the game and try to avoid running the battery down close to 50%. To save power I actually do not leave the battery monitoring system plugged in all the time either - only plug in once a day or twice a day to check on the state of it.

I don't have a large solar panel either - used a simple 15w for a number of years - jumped up to a whooping 45w recently though ;-)

[gordon2]

I have a Scamp on order WITHOUT the furnace because I was planning on using a small electric heater on shore power and a Wave heater when not on shore power...
HOWEVER you have got me rethinking the benefits of the stock furnace with solar power added to keep the battery going..
I'm on the fence now if anyone wants to help me decide.. I only have a few weeks left to finalize the order.

[Franswa]

same sort of use/experience with heat as Carol.....portables/no power units do have to be stored somewhere (drawback) I have an AC heater (thermostat with several different "modes" of use) that I have to deal with already in that respect...wouldn't want another one

also agree with the "whopping 45W" panel ...for the use described it'll keep up nicely most of the time.....if somebody, not knowing nothing about it wanted to get into solar and started researching it (you could spend a lifetime doing that!!! great hobby BTW) they'd be better off to just go get a 40W with controller and go camping I figure...cheap...wait for sales... happens all the time

[Carol H]

Originally Posted by gordon2

I have a Scamp on order WITHOUT the furnace because I was planning on using a small electric heater on shore power and a Wave heater when not on shore power...
HOWEVER you have got me rethinking the benefits of the stock furnace with solar power added to keep the battery going..
I'm on the fence now if anyone wants to help me decide.. I only have a few weeks left to finalize the order.

Do you ever plan to camp with young children or pets that could possible reach up - either by jumping on the bed and or simple reach up to the counter it sits on? If so forget the portable heater. I have camped with children and dogs and know all to well how crowded on a rainy day the trailer can get. Sometimes it feels real crowded with just two adults in it! Have had dogs sleep safely near the scamp stock heater many times. The cover on the stock furnace does not get hot enough to burn anyone who brushes up against it. On the other hand the Wave can burn and you need to be careful not to run it anywhere near curtains, sheets or fabric furniture or where it may get knocked over.

The Olympian Wave 3 Catalytic heater is also for use "in vented areas" only. The built in heater is vented to the outside already so no worries there.

Other thing to remember is the Wave heater burns on propane so you will need to pack with you a number of portable propane cylinders which are not the cheapest things to use and you need to find a safe place to store them while traveling so they are not rolling/banging around.

Nothing wrong with owning a small electric heater for those times you are plugged in. I use one and know many others that do as well, your paying for power so why not use it ;-) If you get the right electric heater there should be no concerns over being burned should it be accidentally knocked over.

[gordon2]

Carol, you bring up a number of good points and almost have me convinced. However you also leave out a few good points and have one thing wrong.

Danger of knocking over the Wave heater.. good point. I found it works well on the counter but you are right, that is something to consider. It can be mounted permanently but then you have to make sure there are sufficient clearances.

Venting.. Well I vent anyway because of condensation, except maybe not much at all with electric heater. (Yes, it is first choice when your paying for shore power).

Burning propane.. it has a hose connection and does not use the little wasteful bottles (like other portable heaters do). I have a quick connect on mine that was the same as the stove in my pop-up and would run a propane line with quick connect in the Scamp.. so it all runs off the main tank(s).

New points: I am pretty sure that the Wave is MUCH more efficient than the furnace. I need to firm up the numbers but I think you get a lot more heat out of the Wave for the same amount of gas.

It is Catalytic heat, and some people don't like that.

The Wave requires NO electric so its still a good back up. If you kill your battery you can still stay warm. If the furnace is your only heat source then once you lose electric power, you have no heat.

I would never run the Wave unattended. I might run the furnace unattended or while sleeping but only if I were desperate (that's just personal preference and no justification is offered).

There is no free lunch.. each has benefits and limitations.. Since I have the Wave already I guess it will be a backup if I get the furnace.

Edit: Another point..
Catalytic heaters (Wave, etc) will become inefficient if the catalytic surface is contaminated. I keep mine covered when not in use. Of course force air furnaces need maintenance also.. so that is a tie.

[rdickens]

NPower Crystalline solar panels are available from Northern Tool. (Crystalline panels supposedly generate more power from less area than the amorphous solar panels)

I recently used a 12 watt crystalline panel and small solar controller to maintain a Group 27 battery while dry camping for 8 days.
I was only using Fantastic Fan (mostly at night), LED lighting at night, and electric water pump.
I mounted the panel, with bungee cords, on the propped up gravel shield of our Scamp13.
(Total cost for panel and controller was under $60.)

While the 12 watt panel was "adequate" for my needs, I would probably upgrade to the 35 watt panel for powering additional loads (i.e. a furnace, etc.) That cost would be about about $150.

Northern Tool also has larger wattage crystalline panels and the required larger solar controllers, but the prices do go up accordingly.

Good luck! And, of course, YMMV. 😉

Ray


Sent from my iPad using Fiberglass RV

[rdickens]

Since Dawn expressed the interest in solar power, this is the setup that I used with the crystalline solar panel and controller from Northern Tool.

http://m.northerntool.com/products/s...?hotline=false

http://m.northerntool.com/products/s...?hotline=false

For the furnace, you might want this panel (or even something larger?):


http://m.northerntool.com/products/s...?hotline=false

Good luck!

Ray

Sent from my SCH-I545 using Fiberglass RV mobile app

[NedMac]

Originally Posted by rdickens

Since Dawn expressed the interest in solar power, this is the setup that I used with the crystalline solar panel and controller from Northern Tool.

Portable Generators, Pressure Washers, Power Tools, Welders | Northern Tool + Equipment

Portable Generators, Pressure Washers, Power Tools, Welders | Northern Tool + Equipment

For the furnace, you might want this panel (or even something larger?):


Portable Generators, Pressure Washers, Power Tools, Welders | Northern Tool + Equipment

Good luck!

Ray

Sent from my SCH-I545 using Fiberglass RV mobile app

Ray,
Thank you SO much for this info!! I didn't even know where to start. So this is great. Is it as simple as it seems? Is there just a direct connect to the battery?? Also, does time of year affect how much energy you create? As far as I've understood, energy can still be generated with cloud cover?

[Bob Miller]

Your links don't take us to a specific item.


But, that said, your pic is of a 12 watt panel that is, basically, a 1 amp trickle charger for your battery. Most that use solar panels for maintaining batteries opt for at least 60 to 100 watts of output.

[gordon2]

Dawn, I recommend this link* for really doing your homework if you want to get a solar system you are happy with while not spending more money than you need to. I say that because every rig is different, everyone's power usage is different, and if you don't get the right system you might not be happy with it. It's a lot to learn and I am just at Solar-101 in my education. I hope folks will give you some examples of what works for them and its similar to your situation to also help guide your decisions.

* This site is a little heavy on the self-advertising but still a well written primer for the solar layman.

[padlin00]

Just an example... we used to get 1-1.5 nights out of a single battery, so we added a 2nd. We could then make it through a weekend, a long weekend if it wasn't below freezing. Would suggest you do the same.

Have a 160 watt roof mount solar panel, it can recharge a single battery from 50% to full during the summer sun, I've been told to figure about half that in the winter sun. 50% works out to about 50 amps, about what one uses in cold weather. To me buying a small (sub 100 watt) solar panel is a waste if you want to camp in the cold and run the heater all night .

You can get a bigger panel, for $200+ that will help, but even that is questionable. With 2 batteries you might go 3 or 4 nights as such. Figuring you could go 2 or 3 without solar, and the panel would give back about a nights worth for every 2 you keep it in the sun. This is a good one, but expensive. There are cheaper ones out there. And yes, it is simple to use, just keep it pointed at the sun and connected to the battery leads. Note, they are fairly heavy the bigger you go. My brother picked up a 160 watt suitcase, it's about 40 lbs. and was about $300.

http://www.amazon.com/Go-Power-GP-PS.../dp/B009MIPH4K

You could also go the small generator route, that's what we did with the old trailer that had 2 group 24 12v batteries.

Or camp somewhere with electric and bring a cube heater.

[Franswa]

will keep the battery up while in storage with everything off but that's about it....

I use 40W panels that come with 7A controllers...(Coleman brand bought at Canadian Tire on sale....125 bucks each on sale).....in my research I found that the 40W panel in full sun will produce no more than 3A.....the 7A controller supplied could accomodate two 40W panels.....( max 6A in perfect conditions)

the AC charger I use charges the batteries at 6A (maximum setting) and it takes it a LONG time to top up the batteries completely after a trip....like 12-18 hours...that was after using only one, deployable panel some of the time last summer

this tells me that a 40W deployable will extend your battery life while camping (if you're not a power hog) but will probably not replace all the power you use....unless you are parked in one spot for several days with the panel out all day

that's why I got a second one installed permanently on the roof....I usually move every day...my TV does not send power to the coach....I don't seem to move far every day so this would not be a big factor for me I figure...the 40W on the roof I got for those times during the day, on the road where you end up parked somewhere for long periods (mall or some other attraction)

so far I've only used both panels together parked at home (about 6A just like my AC charger) and that yielded another important consideration: the difference between a flat panel and one that is angled perfectly to the sun is astounding....in my little experiment it was huge...like the perfectly angled one produced almost twice as much voltage (measured before controller) as the flat one....so that 6A figure only happened for some time before and after noon...if at all

YMMV....this is all just what I have observed

[Byron Kinnaman]

Originally Posted by padlin00

Just an example... we used to get 1-1.5 nights out of a single battery, so we added a 2nd. We could then make it through a weekend, a long weekend if it wasn't below freezing. Would suggest you do the same.

Have a 160 watt roof mount solar panel, it can recharge a single battery from 50% to full during the summer sun, I've been told to figure about half that in the winter sun. 50% works out to about 50 amps, about what one uses in cold weather. To me buying a small (sub 100 watt) solar panel is a waste if you want to camp in the cold and run the heater all night .

You can get a bigger panel, for $200+ that will help, but even that is questionable. With 2 batteries you might go 3 or 4 nights as such. Figuring you could go 2 or 3 without solar, and the panel would give back about a nights worth for every 2 you keep it in the sun. This is a good one, but expensive. There are cheaper ones out there. And yes, it is simple to use, just keep it pointed at the sun and connected to the battery leads. Note, they are fairly heavy the bigger you go. My brother picked up a 160 watt suitcase, it's about 40 lbs. and was about $300.

http://www.amazon.com/Go-Power-GP-PS.../dp/B009MIPH4K

You could also go the small generator route, that's what we did with the old trailer that had 2 group 24 12v batteries.

Or camp somewhere with electric and bring a cube heater.

1 to 1.5 nights before running your battery down. I wonder what all you're running. A big TV lots of hours. incandescent lamps all on, long showers so the water pump runs a lot, electric toaster?

This is one end of the spectrum I'm at the other end, with out the need of heat I can go a couple of months without recharging my battery. How that be? First we live most of the time outside. I changed all lights to low power lights mostly LEDs. I don't have Television, water pump, or any other power needs except when it's cold enough to run the furnace. Typically when the weather gets down near freezing at night I have to recharge my battery about every 4 or 5 days.

It's your choice to buy lots of batteries and solar panels or one battery one small (50 - 100 Watt) solar panel, use a lot of battery or very little battery or somewhere in between.

The more battery and solar panel you have the bigger the initial cost, and the more you have to fuss with things. Some people like to fuss with things a lot some like to simply watch the water roll over the rocks or the grass grow.