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Old 06-21-2017, 08:24 AM   #1
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Name: Marjie
Trailer: Trillium 4500
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Towing a Trillium 4500.

Hi folks.
In the distant past we towed a boler, then a scamp (13') with our Honda Element. Then we got our Trillium (15') and a Honda Pilot. We have towed the Trillium once or twice with the Element with no problem, but usually use the Pilot. Now we need to get rid of a car and I want to keep the Element because it is smaller, and cuter .
According to the towing info., we shouldn't use the Element, but then I also remember that people have said that the towing ratings are really not that accurate and cars are often under valued in regards to towing abilities.
So, my question is, what is your opinion?
The Trillium has brakes.
Thanks, Marjie


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Old 06-21-2017, 09:11 AM   #2
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If you really like your Element, you won't subject it to abuse, like towing over its rating.
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Old 06-21-2017, 11:25 AM   #3
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The element has a large 4 cylinder naturally aspirated engine and a regular automatic (ie non-cvt). It has an arbitrary 1500 lb tow rating and the 4500 weighs about 1500lbs. You will be fine. If you're not sure try it, see if the Element seems taxed, pack light, add a transmission cooler if you will be in hot or hilly areas.

The Pandora's box that you've opened though, is asking this question on a forum, any forum. Many naysayers will insist that you need a diesel dually to tow a boler so as not to exceed a tow rating and risk being sued.
Happy Camping
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Old 06-21-2017, 04:38 PM   #4
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Thanks Glenn, and Phil. I would also like to add that the Element is a manual transmission. As I mentioned, we have used it with the Trillium, but only for short (i.e., under five hours) trips. On relatively flat terrain, that is, the east coast. We have to get rid of one vehicle though, as we are getting an electric car. Decisions decisions....


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Old 06-21-2017, 04:40 PM   #5
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PS...I love a Pandora's box....


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Old 06-21-2017, 04:53 PM   #6
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My suggestion is to take your Trillium loaded to camp to a public scale and weigh it. Scales can be found at transfer stations and truck stops. Then you can make an informed decision. When we first got our Trillium it weighed about 1700 pounds. Recently we discovered it had gained 100 lbs. We're guessing too much Ben and Jerry's Raz
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Old 06-21-2017, 09:57 PM   #7
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I vote to keep the Pilot, subject to a thorough mechanical inspection. If your travels take you further afield you will appreciate the extra power and payload.

Both are great vehicles (we have an '06 CR-V, same drivetrain minus the stick shift, and an '11 Pilot). We tow in some pretty demanding conditions- elevation, grade, wind, and heat, often all at once!- and the Pilot gets it done. For a long day's drive on the open road, the Pilot is a lot more comfortable and requires fewer fuel stops. Of course, in the city the CR-V/Element wins hands down. Tough decision.

I agree about checking the actual loaded weight of your T4500.

Be aware that tow ratings only assume the driver and one passenger, but no additional passengers, pets, or gear. Because we travel with four people and gear in the back, we've never even considered towing our 13' Scamp with the CR-V.

Best wishes!
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Old 06-21-2017, 10:44 PM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Phil 4500 View Post
The element has a large 4 cylinder naturally aspirated engine and a regular automatic (ie non-cvt). It has an arbitrary 1500 lb tow rating and the 4500 weighs about 1500lbs. You will be fine.
I suspect the "about 1500lbs" is on the light side. Based on the Real World Weight thread, as well as knowing a few folks who have owed 4500's I will probable weigh in closer to 2000lbs than 1500lbs once loaded up.
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Old 06-22-2017, 07:52 AM   #9
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Yes, I have thought about getting it weighed. Can anyone stop at those truck weigh stops? I thought they might be for commercial trucks only. Do they laugh at you when you pull up with a teeny tiny trailer?


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Old 06-22-2017, 08:21 AM   #10
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Not the weigh stations run by the highway department you can't (at least not in the states I know). But there are certified private scales at truck stops, grain & feed lots, waste disposal sites, recycling centers, sand & gravel yards, to name a few. Since they're private, you can look them up and call to ask about whether they will accommodate you and what they charge.

Ideally you will take two weights, axle only, hitched, and whole trailer, unhitched. Some may even give you an axle weight for every axle (rear axle overloading could be an issue with the Element, especially if you carry extra people, pets, or gear in the vehicle). Most important is to, as much as possible, load vehicle and trailer as you normally do for camping including food and clothes.
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Old 06-23-2017, 02:44 PM   #11
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Thank you all for your suggestions. We will be staying with the Pilot for towing. I will also look for a local place to weigh the trailer. All good suggestions!


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Old 06-23-2017, 03:02 PM   #12
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Cuteness loses to capability. Good call.
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Old 06-23-2017, 03:54 PM   #13
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We own an Element and it barely handles its own weight. While it has a CRV drivetrain, aerodynamically its dramatically different, pushing a big square box down the road.

All that being said we love our Element! They are getting harder to find and people routinely approach us to buy it!

So if you do sell it just realize its going to hard to find a good one if you ever change your mind.

Now when it comes to towing we use our F150.
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Old 06-23-2017, 04:34 PM   #14
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I've never really understood the mentality that says 'go for it' when a tow is clearly not a match, or that the manufacturers towing ratings are arbitrary. They're based on engineering studies and standards. The numbers either work or they don't. It shouldn't be a contentious subject at all, but it almost inevitably is.

It's also an exaggeration to suggest that those who advise to follow the published capacities are somehow advocating a diesel monster to tow a lightweight trailer. I've never seen that. What I have seen is the suggestion to use a tow that is rated adequately for the trailer. I fail to see what's controversial about that.
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Old 06-24-2017, 10:15 AM   #15
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I'm afraid it's not that simple at all. Certainly engineers do not have the last word. Lawyers, accountants, and marketers also weigh in and corporate executives make the final call.

Tow rating targets are set at the beginning of the design process. Marketers study customers and competitors, engineers design to the targets, accountants minimize costs, lawyers anticipate liability, and executives keep the board happy.

Testing merely confirms whether or not the target has been met. The SAE J2807 standards do not address how the ratings are set, only how they are tested. I see camouflaged vehicles being tow tested all the time, and you can be sure they are not using high profile RVs.

Two things can be said with reasonable certainty. One is that manufacturers' tow ratings are set to maximize sales and minimize production and warranty costs, because that's how businesses work. The other is if you choose to ignore the ratings, you assume the risks, because that's how tort law works.

In the end, tow ratings are not a major selling point for sedans and compact utility vehicles in North America, so there is little incentive to design and test to a higher rating. Our small egg trailers are outliers.
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Old 06-24-2017, 12:50 PM   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jon in AZ View Post
I'm afraid it's not that simple at all. Certainly engineers do not have the last word. Lawyers, accountants, and marketers also weigh in and corporate executives make the final call.

Tow rating targets are set at the beginning of the design process. Marketers study customers and competitors, engineers design to the targets, accountants minimize costs, lawyers anticipate liability, and executives keep the board happy.

Testing merely confirms whether or not the target has been met. The SAE J2807 standards do not address how the ratings are set, only how they are tested. I see camouflaged vehicles being tow tested all the time, and you can be sure they are not using high profile RVs.

Two things can be said with reasonable certainty. One is that manufacturers' tow ratings are set to maximize sales and minimize production and warranty costs, because that's how businesses work. The other is if you choose to ignore the ratings, you assume the risks, because that's how tort law works.

In the end, tow ratings are not a major selling point for sedans and compact utility vehicles in North America, so there is little incentive to design and test to a higher rating. Our small egg trailers are outliers.
This is an excellent post, but it bears out what I was saying, albeit in more detail. Yes, other factors besides engineering and testing go into determining the towing numbers. But, in the end, it's an assumption of risk to exceed them, even if you think they're arbitrary. Better to just have a tow vehicle within the capacities and be done with it.
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Old 06-24-2017, 01:00 PM   #17
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As regards lawyer speak and tow ratings, next time you are in a parts store, ask to see a v or serpentine belt. On the back of the sleeve in the installation instructions you will see, "turn off the engine". That line was not put in there by engineers.

I believe in following the manufacturers tow rating conservatively. My trailer loaded runs only 65% of my vehicles tow rating.
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Old 06-28-2017, 07:29 AM   #18
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Name: Marjie
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Thank you to everyone who took the time to write a thoughtful and educated reply. The comments reflect the thoughts I have had regarding tow ratings. We live in a complex and complicated world, and things are not always what they seem.
Enjoy the trailering season.


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Old 07-01-2017, 07:43 AM   #19
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Just to add one more data value to why the tow ratings are arbitrary. A BMW 3 series in Europe has a tow rating of 4000 lbs, and in North America it is "not recommended to tow".

The only real difference is marketing.
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Old 07-01-2017, 10:03 AM   #20
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Not completely arbitrary, I'd say. Trailer and hitch design, towing laws, driver licensing, and in some cases, vehicle hardware and/or software constitute real differences between European and North American towing.
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