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Old 03-18-2020, 06:14 PM   #41
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Just remember, 50% of all Doctors graduated at the bottom half of their class. Listen to the experts, not those who are pretenders.


Be safe, be well.
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Old 03-18-2020, 06:53 PM   #42
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Actually this is one of the dumber things I have heard! Everyone is going crazy and in pure panic...

Again none of this makes sense but as usual in politics nothing makes sense! We have curtailed none of our activities and plan not to..

Everyone stay calm stay out of those stores seeking tp! We may never see it again!

bob

475 humans have died in the past 24 hours in Italy from Covid 19. Do you understand yet?
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Old 03-18-2020, 06:57 PM   #43
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Here's an article about conspiracy theories in the context of the current COVID-19 situation https://theconversation.com/coronavi...problem-132489
Thanks for this.

But it's hard to get this kind of thing to the people who need it the most, and then get them to actually read it and see if it applies to them. When you try to explain to someone how conspiracy theories work, who promotes them and why, or hand them proof of the con, you are also fighting an uphill battle against the Dunning-Kruger affect, which they fall victim to in supporting their own bias.

It's easy to look at our current condition, with many specific examples, and see predictable and damaging public responses. Always loudly and proudly justified.

We hold ourselves back almost as much as we move forward. In some cases, just as much. We fight for individual freedoms, and freedom of speech. But we fall for the huckster who uses those against us. In other words, we enable those who want to use us for their profit or power.
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Old 03-18-2020, 07:20 PM   #44
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As is said, you are entitled to your own opinion, but you are not entitled to your own facts.

IF we do as we're supposed to do, self-isolating and certainly social distancing, the only thing we'll die of is boredom.

Be safe, be well

I'd just like to point out that "Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not to his own facts." came from Daniel Patrick Moynihan. If anyone is interested see: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Daniel...oynihan#Quotes
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Old 03-19-2020, 07:06 AM   #45
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I like reading conspiracy theories , they often are interesting and imaginative
They are written with just that right mixture of truth and BS to drag you in .
Kind of like fairy tales for big kids , with the Grinch
as the lead character and adult logic is not allowed

I wish I had that ability but writing is not my forte

Stay safe and well
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Old 03-19-2020, 08:15 AM   #46
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This may be in another post.
I want to make sure that those planning on coming to California know that all state parks closed to camping.
You may need to find a private facility to settle down in for several months. If you do I suggest it be in an area your healthcare covers.
Good luck.
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Old 03-19-2020, 09:58 AM   #47
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Politics has invaded so many things that all our perceptions are warped. There are so many obvious things to say, but I'll refrain so we don't get locked down.

A worldwide disease outbreak has nothing to do with politics. The fact that
distrust has been sown sure isn't helping. I'll believe that health experts and scientists from every country in the world are all pulling our leg on this for some imaginary gain as easily as I'll believe that thousands of people managed to all keep their mouths shut and keep secret that the moon landing never happened, and the world is flat.

Yeah, we do a lot with the numbers to make things seem scary, or make them seem overblown. But the actual number of people infected and the actual number of people dead is a real fact.

I have a friend who runs the local county health department. I was talking to him, a few weeks ago, saying "I haven't heard any reason to be any more concerned about this than the flu, and I never worry much about the flu". His response was along the lines of "what keeps us up at night isn't that this might be different than the flu. It keeps us up worrying that it is like the flu. It's mutations of flu-like viruses that grow legs (metaphorically, for now, thank god) and start killing millions of people.

Until we know more about this virus, I'm content to be extra careful.
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Old 03-19-2020, 11:18 AM   #48
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...


Yeah, we do a lot with the numbers to make things seem scary, or make them seem overblown. But the actual number of people infected and the actual number of people dead is a real fact.
...
When we're done testing basketball players and begin testing us common folk then we will learn with satisfactory accuracy the number of people infected here.

Please, I don't mean to make fun. Knowing the actual number is not going to happen. Every test has false positives and false negatives. We lost a lot of time because someone said that the false positive rate of the WHO test was 47%. That was wrong and I give that person the benefit of the doubt that it was not purposeful. Science can be dirty. Science is wonderful. Science is what we have.
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Old 03-21-2020, 03:27 PM   #49
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Science can be dirty. Science is wonderful. Science is what we have.
"Science" is the magic de jure. "Science" is a religion who's priests dress in white laboratory garb instead of black frocks. "Science" is the calming balm dispensed to the pseudo-sophisticated so they can confirm their self-sanctity.

We do not have "science". What we do have is "the scientific method". It is a logical misstep to equivocate "the scientific method" with "science". It is a misstep that leads backward into superstition and paucity of conception that is the very antithesis of that what the worshipers of "science" desire.
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Old 03-21-2020, 03:47 PM   #50
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Nevertheless, the currently popular disparagement of scientists and experts clearly put this country many weeks behind where we could have been. You'd think that would be a lesson.
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Old 03-21-2020, 05:24 PM   #51
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We do not have "science". What we do have is "the scientific method". It is a logical misstep to equivocate "the scientific method" with "science".
But it's a far smaller misstep than deciding "opinion" is more valid than science. Or "anger at science" should turn into a national policy. Or that science is wrong just because it's science, instead of folklore. It's a far smaller misstep than following those who scare for profit, or spout uneducated views because they don't know better, or those seeking to gain power by promoting fear.

The scientific method works toward finding the truth, or actually solving problems, answering questions. And there are always those that will proudly scoff at the findings.

Science gave us fiberglass, steel, vulcanized rubber, and modern fuels. It will also give us a Covid-19 vaccine. But has it given us hoaxes or conspiracies? Are scientist's protective uniforms really just religious garb?
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Old 03-21-2020, 05:29 PM   #52
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Perhaps they are trying to discourage out of state travelers from coming to NM right now so they do not bring the virus with them. That would make some sense.
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Old 03-21-2020, 07:04 PM   #53
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...
We do not have "science". What we do have is "the scientific method". It is a logical misstep to equivocate "the scientific method" with "science". It is a misstep that leads backward into superstition and paucity of conception that is the very antithesis of that what the worshipers of "science" desire.
I think that you are trying to clarify what I said. Thank you. I believe that you are referring to scientists who engage to further science. Not someone like me who from time to time tries to study science. I do not study scientific method. Did I grok you?


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"Science" is the magic de jure. "Science" is a religion who's priests dress in white laboratory garb instead of black frocks. "Science" is the calming balm dispensed to the pseudo-sophisticated so they can confirm their self-sanctity.
...
I don't have any idea of what you have said. For many years I have been struggling to understand 20th century physics. I do not engage in scientific method. I engage in books. I engage in e.g. Feynman videos. Physics, the best I can tell is a branch of science. Scientists use scientific method to advance science. What they are advancing is in my mind called science.


For some people language is easy. I find it difficult. Take the word decimate. If you don't know it and are interested read it's etymology. It means both diminish by an awful lot and diminish by 10%. Can I use it to describe diminishing something by 90%? That might be an awful lot, but the word has the prefix "deci". Is this the kind of problem I'm having understanding you?


If you find this interesting enough please explain.
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Old 03-21-2020, 07:11 PM   #54
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Nevertheless, the currently popular disparagement of scientists and experts clearly put this country many weeks behind where we could have been. You'd think that would be a lesson.
Those of us who have actually been involved in disaster planning have known for the last 15 or so years than an event of this nature would happen. The only question was when and what. It is not the disparagement of scientists and experts that has been the stumbling block. There has been very little of that.

What we are seeing now is entirely the result of political priorities. Politicians decided that the cost of preparing for a pandemic was not the best use of public funds. They simply did not believe the warnings.

Now they are thrashing about primarily to appear to be doing something, even if what they do is useless or even harmful. You can not blame this on a single political party or individual. It is the nature of politicians to do what politicians do and it has little relation to logic, science, or anything resembling reason.
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Old 03-21-2020, 07:27 PM   #55
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I see very little anger at the concept of scientific inquiry. The problem is just the opposite. There is a reverence for anything that claims to be scientific that often gives it undeserved value.

The scientific method is a process that applies certain truth tests to a hypothesis. It is always open to change as new information becomes available.

The problem occurs when people begin to assume that science = truth. Then "science" simply becomes dogma. When a TV ad features someone dressed in a white lab coat to hawk their product, they are using this public gullibility for "science" to sell the product.

It is a difference between Plato's concept of "universal" and Aristotle's concept. For Plato, the concept of "Science" was the universal and all specific examples were merely imperfect reflections of the perfect "Science" Aristotle said "No". Universals are derived by generalizing from the specific examples that we experience.

When we treat "Science" as a Platonic Universal, we are practicing mysticism. That is not necessarily a productive point of view.
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Old 03-21-2020, 07:31 PM   #56
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^There are generalizations but the specifics of this situation are obvious and unique.
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Old 03-21-2020, 07:32 PM   #57
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I see very little anger at the concept of scientific inquiry. The problem is just the opposite.

I have no idea what you are attempting to accomplish with this and your other posts.
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Old 03-21-2020, 07:32 PM   #58
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Those of us who have actually been involved in disaster planning have known for the last 15 or so years than an event of this nature would happen. The only question was when and what. It is not the disparagement of scientists and experts that has been the stumbling block. There has been very little of that.

What we are seeing now is entirely the result of political priorities. Politicians decided that the cost of preparing for a pandemic was not the best use of public funds. They simply did not believe the warnings.

Now they are thrashing about primarily to appear to be doing something, even if what they do is useless or even harmful. You can not blame this on a single political party or individual. It is the nature of politicians to do what politicians do and it has little relation to logic, science, or anything resembling reason.

Back in the bad old days when I actually worked I was from time to time dragged kicking and screaming into discussions of where to locate a data center. I learned from the meetings but couldn't offer much.


About 4 miles from my home someone just built a data center. The power is single sourced but reliable. Maybe that is OK. I haven't looked at a FEMA map but it looks to my jaundiced eye to be just barely out of a flood plain. It is likely far enough from a runway at COS. Construction finished most of a year ago and I don't think the building is occupied. If I'm correct and they never started up there might be many reasons besides environmental risk.


My take-away is that for data centers, viruses, etc. planning is for sissies.
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Old 03-21-2020, 08:03 PM   #59
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Now they are thrashing about primarily to appear to be doing something, even if what they do is useless or even harmful. You can not blame this on a single political party or individual. It is the nature of politicians to do what politicians do and it has little relation to logic, science, or anything resembling reason.

I'm not about to give a politician a pass simply because they are doing what is typical of politicians. That is completely illogical. And when they go out of their way to belittle scientists, and science, and then can't deal with what they were clearly warned about, by those same scientists, we have a problem. We, meaning the rest of the public. Ultimately, the blame falls on us for putting them in charge. Making excuses for them is not helpful. We need straight talk and a coordinated effort based on facts.
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Old 03-21-2020, 09:34 PM   #60
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We need straight talk and a coordinated effort based on facts.
This is exactly right, and what’s so scary about the current situation. In a world of alternative facts....
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