16 or 17 - that is the question

[Civilguy]

Originally Posted by Glenn Baglo

Dry weight is a trailer without options, battery, fluids.
Add any of those and you no longer have dry weight.
Dry weight is useful to compare one bare trailer with another.
GVWR is what it is capable of carrying, so that's not really a measure for comparison.

Hi Glenn,

Thanks for noting this comment regarding dry weight again. I respectfully disagree with that information as there appears to be a broad consensus that factory-installed options are included as part of an RV's dry weight.

"Dry weight is the average weight of a trailer equipped as it leaves the factory. It is essentially a synonym for the unladen weight of the trailer. GVWR (gross vehicle weight rating) is the unladen trailer weight plus its cargo carrying capacity as determined by the manufacturer."

"DRY WEIGHT The weight of the RV without any liquids, passengers, or cargo. Manufacturers weigh new units before shipping them to Camping World and record that weight as the Dry Weight. It is similar to Curb Weight for automobiles."

"Dry Weight/Shipped Weight - The weight of the RV as shipped from the manufacturer without any passengers, cargo, liquids, or additional accessories or dealer installed options."

"Dry Weight: The weight of the RV without any fuel, empty freshwater and holding tanks, empty propane tank(s), and with no passengers or other goods."

"Dry wt Plus CCC should equal GVWR"

Also, I think you are confusing Gross Vehicle Weight Rating (GVWR) with Cargo Carrying Capacity (CCC) or perhaps Net Carrying Capacity (NCC). Our Escape is factory-labeled with a Gross Vehicle Weight Rating (GVWR) of 5,000 lbs and a Cargo Carrying Capacity (CCC) of 1,031 lbs.

Subtracting the CCC from the GVWR results in 3,969 lbs. The border crossing paperwork lists the weight as 3,735 lbs. Subtracting this from 3,969 lbs results in a difference of 234 lbs, the weight of 28 gallons of fresh water.

"Gross Vehicle Weight Rating (GVWR):GVWR is the maximum allowable weight of the vehicle. The GVWR is equal to or greater than the sum of the UVW (see listing) and the NCC (see listing) and consists of all of its contents including, but not limited to, all fluids (gasoline or diesel fuel, engine oil, LPG (Propane), water, holding tanks, etc.); all foods; all clothing, bedding, towels, etc.; all tools and spare parts, all toys (adult and children's) and all passengers (154 Lbs each) and pets.”

"UVW (Unloaded Vehicle Weight): UVW is the weight of the RV as built at the factory with full fuel, engine oil and coolants. The UVW does not include cargo, fresh water, LP Gas, occupants or dealer installed accessories.”

NCC (Net Carrying Capacity): NCC means the maximum weight of all occupants and goods including the driver, personal belongings, food, fresh water, LP Gas, tools, tongue weight of towed vehicle, dealer installed accessories, etc. that can be carried in the RV. NCC is equal to or less than GVWR (see listing) minus UVW (see listing). The term Cargo Carrying Capacity (see listing) is replacing NCC in new RVs.

Returning to the weights I listed for our Escape above, as this is a trailer and not a motorhome there are no passengers. The propane was already included, so the weight of the freshwater water is the only difference between the GVWR and the CCC.

For the curious, additional definitions are provided in the link below. However, the term “dry weight” is not included on that particular site.

Link: RV Forum Glossary

While I agree that dealer-installed options are not included, I'll continue to use the term Dry Weight to apply to the weight of the trailer as delivered including the weight of all the factory-installed options.

As for the GVWR, that’s something that includes the maximum combined axle and tongue weights; trailer, gear, fluids, fur, guts and feathers. So, it's entirely germaine to evaluating and comparing tow vehicle capacities.

[Jon Vermilye]

The problem with dry weight is it is what ever a manufacturer wants to call it. It is useful comparing different models and sometimes configurations within the same manufacturer, but pretty useless comparing one brand to another.

[Civilguy]

Originally Posted by Jon Vermilye

The problem with dry weight is it is what ever a manufacturer wants to call it. It is useful comparing different models and sometimes configurations within the same manufacturer, but pretty useless comparing one brand to another.

My understanding is that Escape does even not weigh their finished trailers. I was told that they simply add a known weight for each factory-installed option to a baseline weight for each model.

Personally, we used all but 408 lbs of our rated capacities last trip out, so I figure that simply using GVWR provides a simple basis for comparison and keeps me out of the weeds, perhaps with some margin to spare.

[Glenn Baglo]

I'm crying "uncle".

[Civilguy]

oh, g'wan, grab a calculator and have some fun with the rest of us!

...er, with me at least anyway...

[Glenn Baglo]

Originally Posted by Civilguy

I figure that simply using GVWR provides a simple basis for comparison and keeps me out of the weeds, perhaps with some margin to spare.

OK, I'll take this on. You can upgrade the axle to increase the GVWR and you don't need tandem axles on your 21. You just need one axle that is built for a higher GVWR.

[Civilguy]

I started thinking about "unsprung weight" and then my brain exploded.

Uncle back at you!

[Rnupnorthbrrr]

As a single woman in her 50’s I can really relate to your situation and questions !! After many years dreaming of owning a Scamp (because I drive by the factory) and several years of research I could not decide on “the right casita(or Scamp)” just like you. I had so many uncertainties ......I live near Scamp so thought having work done would be convenient but I really like casita liberty or spirit, I’m tall so wanted headroom, do I want bunks or side dinette, front or side bath, roof a/c, heater, propane, dry weight, tongue weight, loaded weight and all those abbreviations that have meaning and they matter....????? my head was spinning and I put off buying for years because of it after getting advice from wonderful people on here I realized buying the “right” camper was holding me back. I can’t give advice on weights and TV, civilguy posted some good info there !! But what I can advise on is, as long as you can figure out the safe tow weight and what you and your TV can safely handle then just buy one, they hold their value and are easy to resale. It gives you an opportunity to figure out what you really want and need. I finally took that advice and when I ran across a 2005 16’ front bath Scamp near me I bought it and I LOVE it !!!! I might keep it forever or I might sell and get a casita but at least I can get started with my adventures and learning . I can’t wait for spring ! Good luck with your search

[bobblangley]

Amy. It sounds as if you have little or no experience camping with a trailer. There are significant differences between that style of camping and tent camping. You are talking about potentially buying a new TV and a trailer. Perhaps you should consider renting a trailer for a weekend or more to make sure you like it.

[Judith Neville]

As a solo female, I would get a bathroom model. At the very least, a spot to put a porta potty. You do not want to make a midnight run to the bathouse alone.

[Procyonid]

We tow our 17 Spirit Deluxe with a Honda Ridgeline, which has a similar drivetrain and body structure as the Pilot. It twos fine, and we simply avoid overloading the Casita and put extra gear in the TV instead. Get a anti-sway bar (and instructions on how to use it), then drive intelligently and you will be fine. There are many uninformed opinion out there, some of which reflect an inherent bias for or against a particular product, so your best approach is to do some research and talk with as many owners, in person, as you can find. BTW - Casitas acting like bathtubs that cannot be drained is a scare tactic that, if true, would cut the floor out (pun intended) of their resale market, which clearly isn’t the case. Any camper can leak, but Casitas seem no more prone to compromised floors than any other fiberglass camper, and less so than many.

[Len S]

Originally Posted by AmyFL

Hi - I am a solo female camper. I have tent camped my entire life, and I am finally getting off the ground! I have a 2011 Honda Pilot with 3500 tow. Nice guy at Casita said I can pull a 17 Deluxe model. I found a clean used 2011 17 Spirit Deluxe. The owner said I need more tow! As I am a single female - late 50s- I am not opposed to getting a 16 (I am 5’ 5” - know it has less headroom.) I don’t even mind a Standard. However, I want to buy the right Casita, that I will have for years. I live in FL. I plan to head to Maine, then up through Eastern Canada this summer. (In the coming years I do plan on extended trips “out West” and western Canada.) I teach and am off summers. A new/different vehicle is really not an option, as this one is paid for, and I have money saved to buy the Casita. I think I prefer the Spirit or Liberty models. Besides the 16 or 17, Deluxe or Standard questions, should I spend a little more money to get a slightly newer model? (I decided I do not want a 13 as I want a place to sit while the bed is in use.) Any advice is greatly appreciated. Amy

The tow vehicle ratings in about 101% of the cases are just a little overdone in the real world. I would never plan on towing (loaded)more than 75% of vehicle rating and downgrade that depending on the motor size and transmission. Also when looking at power ratings ; I never look at the HP but mainly the torque and at what rpm the max torque comes in at. The higher the torque at the lower rpm should be a better towing engine. Most of your newer vehicles that have tow rated transmissions and 6 speeds should be a good start.
One thing I might mention with any of the Honda vehicles ; they like to get their ratings at much higher rpm than some and that means more wear and tear. Not a negative point ; just reality.

[half2go]

I might be interested in one of your trailers. Which 1 are you planning on selling? Any info you are willing to send would be useful. Where are you located? Thanks

[Chrissie C]

Hi Amy... well most of your answers are going to be practical and ‘according to hoyle’. Which is how I usually live...however I did not want to change my truck either..So I thought I’d give you my story that is almost identical to yours....not saying it would be correct for you but it has worked for me... I am 70 years old...single female... in 2013 I bought a 17’ FD.....love it... my tow vehicle is a 2001 Chevy S10....REALLY love it!. I opted to keep my S10 because it is the perfect size truck for me and has plenty of power for my towing....as long as I drive smart.
I did have to spend some money to upgrade the S10 to make it tow worthy.. from front to back... new V6 vortec ( needed anyway). Trans cooler, radiator upgrades, rear end gearing lowered, ceramic brakes, air shocks and air bags... very important for me. Also a sway bar. I’m sure there are other items but talk to a trusted mechanic that knows about towing and they can fill you in...I’m not familiar with Honda Pilots but I don’t think they are too much bigger. I have no issues towing at 60 and under... but I’m a retired school bus driver... 55 is in my veins I’m not in a hurry... if I’m on a grade ( 6%) that is over 4/5 miles I may have to pull over... i drive in 3rd. Grades are slower. Overall I love my little red truck and my 17’ Casita....wouldn’t trade in either one... you may have to make some trade offs in performance.. in 2007 I took a 2 1/2 month trip from So California up to Seattle..over to Yellowstone and back down to Simi Valley...overheated in Jackson WY..... some valve stuck... minor fix... and the trailer needed a new battery in Idaho. So that’s my experience as an older single female with her little truck and Casita. Just do your homework. And have many wonderful trips. (Also I’d opt for the 17’ if you can). Christine

[Justus C]

Originally Posted by Len S

One thing I might mention with any of the Honda vehicles ; they like to get their ratings at much higher rpm than some and that means more wear and tear. Not a negative point ; just reality.

Reality is that if you are purchasing a Ridgeline or Pilot and towing is your primary use, you are buying the wrong vehicle! But all of this discussion (and I'm not singling you out) misses a critical element of the first post:

Originally Posted by AmyFL

A new/different vehicle is really not an option

Stay strong Amy! People can and do pull 16' Scamps and Casitas with vehicles rated for 3,500 lbs. Will it be ideal for your trips out West? Probably not! But the other 99% of the time you won't be kicking yourself for the extra debt. That's the tradeoff. I'm happy with that tradeoff so far, but I'll be back with a report next year after we trek out West.

There is a Scamp rally coming up in Florida next month: http://www.fiberglassrv.com/forums/f...0-a-90739.html. What a perfect opportunity to check out some of your options, discuss issues in person with owners, and maybe even talk to a few people towing with "marginal" vehicles. I bet you'll find a few folks thinking of selling, or at least some leads if you are interested. It looks like sites are booked up but I bet if you contact Floyd he can let you know about a tour day.

[jgilliam1955]

I like the idea of renting first & see if you like it.

[Casita Greg]

Originally Posted by Justus C

Reality is that if you are purchasing a Ridgeline or Pilot and towing is your primary use, you are buying the wrong vehicle! But all of this discussion (and I'm not singling you out) misses a critical element of the first post:

Stay strong Amy! People can and do pull 16' Scamps and Casitas with vehicles rated for 3,500 lbs. Will it be ideal for your trips out West? Probably not! But the other 99% of the time you won't be kicking yourself for the extra debt. That's the tradeoff. I'm happy with that tradeoff so far, but I'll be back with a report next year after we trek out West.

Well, I don't see that as good advice at all IMO. When you come out west, be sure to do a write-up of how well your underpowered tow vehicle works when going up and down all those twisty several mile long 7-9% grades, with the occasional 14% grades here and there, and doing it at altitudes of between 6,000-8,000 feet. I definitely would not recommend to anybody planning to travel out west to buy an underpowered tow vehicle. If anything, you'd want to be oversized than undersized. Just my 2 cents, but I live, and tow my trailer, out west, and I know how quickly an underpowered vehicle will bog down towing in such conditions. Oh, and while you're calculating those tow ratings, don't forget to factor in everything you are bring with you. That includes driver, passengers, pets, camping equipment and supplies, coolers full of food and ice, etc. I think you get the point. It is real easy to overload yourself by going with any marginally capable rig.

[J Selleck]

We just shifted from tent to TT in November 2018.
Realizing that you have already chosen your builder, just wanted t share our experience. There is network of owners ,you may be connected to view models near your address.

Took us A year of evaluation to choose an Escape Trailer. (EscapeTrailerIndustry)
Sells direct from manufacturer.

We are 2 persons and have since traveled over 9000 miles with our model 17B

Pull with a Hyundai suv.

Why ? Incredible person to builder communication
Company is near Vancouver Canada. Exchange rate to USA purchasers advantage
We ordered and waited 4 months til it was ready for pick up.
NOW company has popular models in stock for immediate pick up.

Website is informative. Escapetrailerindustries .com

[John in Santa Cruz]

my casita 16 SD's CURB weight (thats with battery but no water) is about 2100 lbs. I'm 6'0" tall, and it was great when I was solo (star parties and such) but too small for the two of us. I wouldn't want a camper without a toilet and I hate dealing with cassette toilets. I could live without a shower if the trailer had an outside shower. I hardly ever used the A/C on the Casita as I'm rarely camping with power.

the downside of the casita deluxe 16 is the fresh water and grey holding tanks are too darn small. I could stretch a week dry camping solo by taking sponge baths and hardly using the sprayer, maybe only shampooing once in that week. minimizing toilet flush water, and minimizing dish washing (wipe dishes with paper towel as soon as you finish eating, then soapy sponge and quick rinse).

We towed our SD16 with a Tacoma 4x4, which handled it like a breeze.

[Justus C]

Originally Posted by Casita Greg

Well, I don't see that as good advice at all IMO. When you come out west, be sure to do a write-up of how well your underpowered tow vehicle works when going up and down all those twisty several mile long 7-9% grades, with the occasional 14% grades here and there, and doing it at altitudes of between 6,000-8,000 feet. I definitely would not recommend to anybody planning to travel out west to buy an underpowered tow vehicle. If anything, you'd want to be oversized than undersized. Just my 2 cents, but I live, and tow my trailer, out west, and I know how quickly an underpowered vehicle will bog down towing in such conditions. Oh, and while you're calculating those tow ratings, don't forget to factor in everything you are bring with you. That includes driver, passengers, pets, camping equipment and supplies, coolers full of food and ice, etc. I think you get the point. It is real easy to overload yourself by going with any marginally capable rig.

I am not advocating buying an underpowered tow vehicle, I'm saying if she plays her cards right, Amy can avoid saddling herself with debt while achieving her traveling goals. Since Amy is a single female and did not mention pets, I assume she will be a solo traveler, which cuts down on required payload. But your comment about altitude got me thinking, and sure enough the 2011 Honda Pilot manual directs the owner to subtract 2% from GCWR for every 1,000 feet of elevation. Using the heaviest 16' Casita in the real weights thread and numbers from the 2011 Pilot owner's manual, I came up with the following chart by subtracting curb weight and trailer weight from GCWR.

For: 3,260 lbs Casita Spirit 16'

Elevation	Real Payload Left
0		887
1000		717.68
2000		548.36
3000		379.04
4000		209.72
5000		40.4
6000		-128.92
7000		-298.24
8000		-467.56

Stay out of the mountains, Amy. Things are much rosier for the heaviest 13' Scamp.

For 1,960 lbs Scamp 13 with bath

Elevation	Real Payload Left
0		1437
1000		1437
2000		1437
3000		1437
4000		1437
5000		1340
6000		1171
7000		1002
8000		832

(The real payload doesn't change until 5,000 feet because GVWR would be exceeded if it was any higher.) So I will downgrade my recommendation to a 13' Scamp or a very light 16' Scamp. And stay to the right.

Hopefully this link works if anyone cares to check my numbers or make your own guesses: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets...it?usp=sharing

Our setup tows easily and efficiently in the flat lands of Illinois. I ran the numbers for our TV and trailer awhile back and we had comfortable margins for passengers and gear but I did not account for elevation. Although the manual doesn't direct me to, I'm going to run them again with the 2% drop per 1,000 ft as I believe I've seen that recommendation elsewhere.