2008 Kia Rondo EX V6 & Scamp 13' Standard Layout 2 Big Bed - Will it work?

[DeanCHS1980]

Hi All,

Well, since one of my last posts, "The $25,000 Question" (best combo of used Tug/Trailer), my DW and I had the chance to go to our first FG rally (LBL Rally earlier this month). Since catching the RV bug about 13 months ago, we have zeroed in on a travel trailer and we REALLY like FG rigs! Initially my goal was to think about a motorhome in 10 years when I retire. The deeper I got into the research, the more my DW and I want to get into RVing sooner rather than later. Forget 10 years. How about 5 years? How about 2 years? How about ASAP!!! After attending the LBL Rally, we are trying to figure out a way to get a rig ASAP. One of the quickest ways to jump into this would be to to buy a rig that we can tow with our current vehicle. I have a couple of options, but I am going to focus on what I will call Option 1. Here it goes. . .

I have learned from the FGRV forums how important the tow weight issue is. We own a 2008 Kia Rondo EX V6 (2.7 liter). Here are the specs for my Rondo:

Maximum Trailer Weight w/ Electric Brakes is 2,000 lbs.
Maximum Tongue Weight is 200 lbs.
The Vehicle Capacity Weight is 1,157 lbs.
The GVWR is 4,961 lbs.
The GAWR Front is 2,513 lbs.
The GAWR Rear is 2,601 lbs.

OK, first lets deal with the vehicle capacity weight of 1,157 lbs. My DW and I weigh a combined weight of 350 lbs. In order to protect myself from the scorn of releasing my DW's weight, I will not release individual weights!!! Given a maximum tongue weight of 200 lbs, this leaves us about 600 lbs. of Cargo Carrying Capacity in the Rondo. I don't see a problem here. Check!

Next, lets deal with the maximum trailer weight of 2,000 lbs with electric brakes. Based on my research, we can eliminate all FG rigs other than 13' rigs. Basically, 13' rigs would leave us with the following options: Casita, Scamp, or a vintage trailer. I think the Casita will be too heavy. Despite our appreciation for vintage egg campers, we are eliminating them for a few reasons. Unless it is already restored, I am not really a DIYer, plus I have little time for the next few years for restoration. We want to spend our discretionary time camping, not fixing. OK, this leaves the 13' Scamp.

As mentioned above, over the months, we have shifted our attention from a motorhome in 10 years to a FG rig ASAP. In the process of doing this, we have had to prioritize what is MOST important to us. Here are our two non-negotiable requirements:

1. Must have a bathroom!
2. Must have a decent size bed = 54 inches in width.

Given these parameters, there appears to be one potential option:

Scamp 13' Standard Trailer - Layout 2 Big Bed

My DW prefers the Standard over the Deluxe. She likes the white FG more than the wood look. Personally, I like the Birch, but the Standard weighs less than the Deluxe, so we both agree to go with the 13' Standard. Layout 2 will come with the bathroom that we must have, plus you can get it with a Big Bed of 54". PERFECT!

Now the issue becomes, can our 2008 Rondo V6 tow a Scamp 13' Standard Trailer, Layout 2 Big Bed? According to the Scamp website, 13' trailers will weigh from 1,200 to 1,500 lbs with a tongue weight of 100 lbs. HOWEVER, I have learned from the experienced ones on these forums, the importance of Frederick Simson's Weights in the Real World (manufacturers underestimate their weights). There are five entries in the spreadsheet for the Scamp 13'. Here is a quick summary of the 13' model, axle weight, tongue weight, total, year weighed:

Deluxe Oak; 1,460 axle weight; 230 lb tongue weight; 1,690 total weight; 2014
Deluxe Oak; 1,460 axle weight; 230 lb tongue weight; 1,690 total weight; 2014
Standard; 1,480 axle weight; 240 lb tongue weight; 1,720 total weight; 2011
Standard; 1,720 axle weight; 230 lb tongue weight; 1,950 total weight; 2011
???; 1,420 axle weight; 200 lb tongue weight; 1,620 total weight; 2009

I think the first two entries above might be for the same trailer??? In any case, it looks like the "real" weights of the Scamp 13' above ranges from 1,690 lbs to 1,950 lbs. OK, this is less than the 2,000 lb. maximum weight of my Rondo. Got it!

However, there is a considerable discrepancy between Scamp's claim of a 100 lb hitch weight of the 13' Standard and the reported "real" tongue weights ranging from 200 to 240 lbs. Most of the real tongue weights above exceed my Rondo's maximum tongue weights by 30 to 40 lbs.

I would like to hear your thoughts regarding the above, particularly the real world tongue weight exceeding my maximum tongue weight by up to 40 lbs.

In conclusion, since the Scamp Standard 13' Layout 2 Big Bed has only been around since 2014, I am assume we will have a very difficult job finding a used one. In addition, we would want the trailer to have most options, including:

1. Three speed roof fan?
2. Cable TV hookup
3. AC
4. Power range hood
5. Furnace
6. Extra interior 12 volt lights
7. Electric brakes
8. 8 ft. awning
9. TV antenna?
10. Dual gas tanks
11. Side cabinets
12. 2" receiver for bike racks
13. Exterior ground fault outlet
14. Stove cover
15. Wheel on jack
16. Gas/Electric hot water heater?
17. Group 27 battery pack?
18. Splash guards
19. Deluxe Blue/Grey Wall liner
20. Sink in bathroom
21. Propane gauge
22. Heat strip for roof air
23. 12 volt plug
24. Extra 120 volt interior plugs
25. Front porch lights
26. Vinyl Floor

Based on the above, I am guessing we would need to order a new one rather than finding used. Are there others out there that have the Scamp 13' Standard Layout 2 Big Bed that is loaded? If so, have you had it weighed? What does it weigh? Will a loaded Scamp 13' Standard Layout 2 Big Bed exceed a weight of 2,000 lbs and a tongue weight of 200 lbs.? If we can work through this, I can see us ordering one sooner rather than later. If we deem that the Rondo is an insufficient tug, then I will need to proceed to Plan B that will involve a different tug, which will complicate our sooner rather than later plan.

I look forward to hearing your expertise and thoughts.

Thanks,

Dean

[Jon in AZ]

Wow, Dean... That's very nearly every option Scamp offers, and all of the heavy ones. I suspect... I don't know... that it will still have an empty weight under 2000 pounds, but by how much is a question. Floyd recently cited a friend's Scamp 13 front bath (no other details given- you could PM him) at 1700 pounds empty. You need to leave room for food, clothes, kitchen & personal items, a couple of folding chairs, you hinted at bicycles,...

In addition, front bath Scamp 13s routinely exceed 200 pounds tongue weight, but by how much is another question. Do you really need two propane tanks? The second tank adds around 40 pounds and much of it is sitting on your hitch. The larger battery adds to the hitch weight as well.

You might post a specific question to see if someone out there with a fully-optioned front bath Scamp 13 standard has an accurate scaled empty total weight and tongue weight. I doubt the large bed option matters that much.

The other open question in my mind is how well your Rondo will do towing right at its limit with a high-profile trailer. One issue is performance, and it may depend on your willingness to alter your driving style. Another is durability: how well the drivetrain and chassis will hold up long-term under the added strain of towing at the limit.

More questions than answers, I'm afraid... but my gut tells me this is going to be marginal at best.

[Evergreengirl]

You've certainly done your research. My question is: are you totally in love with your Kia and totally opposed to getting a new and/or different tow vehicle? Why not shop for a new or late model TV that would better suit your needs to tow the trailer you're thinking of getting? I do think you're smart to not wait!!! Get out there and have fun now - you never know what tomorrow may bring.

[Felix47]

I tow a casita 16 foot with an Acura RSX which is a glorified Civic. The key is taking the heavy stuff out. I take the propane tanks off. I took out the front A/C which weighed a lot. I store nothing in the trailer. No cans and essentially nothing. The front closet door is gone replaced by a curtain. The refrig is empty. All fluids are gone. I use a composting toilet. No tanks. If I am in a place for a while I fill the fresh water tank for showers etc. and I drain it before leaving. Thought a about a WDH but the whole things seems to ride OK. I use trailer brakes and I never go over 55. Even with really steep hills here out west I have no power problem. I do have a manual trans with six speeds. I never take it out of 5th really unless it is flat. Oh.....if there is any significant wind I stop and get off the road. I am a full timer and so I just put all the junk in the car and keep it out of the casita.

[Jon in AZ]

Originally Posted by Felix47

...so I just put all the junk in the car and keep it out of the casita.

I'm not sure I understand how moving stuff from the trailer to the car helps anything, and it might exacerbate tongue weight overloads, since that is usually related to the vehicle's rear axle weight rating.

A common misconception is that tow ratings and tongue weight limits are unrelated to tow vehicle loading. Actually, vehicle and trailer are a package deal, and there are many limiting factors. Both the vehicle and the trailer have a gross vehicle weight rating, gross axle weight rating(s), and tire weight ratings. In addition there is a gross combined weight rating for both vehicles together with everything in them.

Tow ratings and hitch weight ratings do take all these into consideration, but they incorporate some assumptions: usually one or two average-weight occupants, a full gas tank, and minimal other cargo in the vehicle. More than that reduces towing capacity, as this excerpt from my Honda Pilot's manual shows:

[Bob Miller]

Unfortunately Scamps listed "tongue weight" is not for the front bath model and I agree that you will have a lot of problems keeping that entire rig under 200 lbs tongue weight, much less under your 2000 tow limit with that options list and your "stuff" inside.

As mentioned, you added a number of heavy options, as well as the larger battery and extra LP tank both contributing directly to tongue weight.

We had a lot of problems keeping weight off of our 13' Scamp w/bath tongue, especially when the black holding tank can add yet another 40+ lbs to the front of the trailer.

You can make your weight limits and options list without the front bath, but it will be very, very difficult, if not impossible, to make it with the bathroom.

And advice for towing over manufacturers specified limits is usually "Not Defined".


My suggestion, start out with a good used FGRV and get some experience finding out what you do and don't like/need, and then look at a new one a few years down the line. The way prices are going right now, you should be able to sell the first one for more than you paid, making it a fairly inexpensive learning experience.

[honda03842]

Our fully loaded Scamp 16 has never had a tongue weight higher than 205 lbs.

Sent from my SCH-I545 using Fiberglass RV mobile app

[Bob Miller]

In all fairness Norm you should also mention the total weight of your 16' Scamp and how many years you have been towing. I don't think that a newbie would or should be comfortable with what has apparently worked for you and Ginny.

[honda03842]

Bob,

There seems to be some moderator pressure for those with selected towing opinions to reduce their posting. As a result, I sent a PM to the OP stating how we successfully towed with a Honda CRV.

By the way, when we started towing we were truly newbies with no trailer towering experience. If we had come to this site first I sometimes doubt I would have ever towed.

[Bob Miller]

Fair enough, but the o.p. wanted to stay under 2000 lbs.

[Roger C H]

Our 2000 Subaru Outback had a tow rating of 2000# and hitch limit of 100#.
Our Trillium weighed 1850# as traveled and a 90# hitch weight.

We don't carry water in the tank because like I like to say, "We aren't going to the moon!" Each gallon of water weighs 8# so the 12 gallon tank would add 100# for no good reason. It also reduces the winterizing tasks to nothing. We don't even hook up to shore power water any longer. We take showers at the RV park we stay at. We do use shore water for washing dishes, but then I go out and fill up my large pot, heat it on the stove, pour part in the sink, put detergent in the sink, wash in the sink, rinse in the remaining hot water in the pot.
This saves having and carrying a hot water heater. We are camping, and trying to change our normal routine.
I posted an extensive discussion of the Porta-Potti issue earlier. Click on: Portapotty use question .

Good luck in your decision making, and welcome to the forum.

[Carol H]

Originally Posted by honda03842

Our fully loaded Scamp 16 has never had a tongue weight higher than 205 lbs.

My Scamp 16' did/does. Normally at 240lbs plus - anything less than that results in a less than stable tow at highway speeds.

[honda03842]

Originally Posted by Carol H

My Scamp 16' did/does. Normally at 240lbs plus - anything less than that results in a less than stable tow at highway speeds.

In some measure trailer sway is related to trailer loading. I have towed all our trailers with about the same percentage of tongue weight (usually 200 lbs 7-8%) and have not experienced sway at highway speeds. (To me highway speeds are 62 mph (100 Kph), 3 mph less than the top rated speed of my trailer tires.)

I have only one propane tank, load heavy items near or over the axle , and load fluff items like clothing or bedding at the ends.

We drive with a half full water tank and empty grey and black tanks, emptying tanks as soon as possible and only filling the water tank before entering a boondocking location.

Our 1991 Scamp 16 has more cabinets, drawers, storage locations than any Scamp I've ever seen. Sway has never been an issue.

We have towed with and without an anti-sway bar (probably 6,000 miles without), though most of our miles are with an anti-sway bar. We view the anti-sway bar as a low cost, no effort 'insurance' policy. (On two occasions it's helped in serious situations.)

If towing with 10-15% of trailer weight was a requirement I know we would never bought our first trailer. We would NOT have bought a new tow vehicle because we were only planning to make a 2 month trip with that first trailer. It turned out differently, we loved our small trailer and haven't stopped since. Our first tow vehicle, a 2004 Honda CRV, took us all over North America and Canada. It had 250,000 miles before we traded it in last year.

Will a Kia Rondo V6 do as well, obviously I don't know. I do know the 4 cylinder version is rated for 3300 pounds in the UK. I would definitely give it a try before i spent a small fortune on a new tow vehicle. I would load the trailer appropriately, I would buy electric brakes, I would install a transmission cooler, I would add an anti-sway bar, I would inflate the tire appropriately, avoid severe weather and drive conservatively.

I can only relate my experiences.

[Carol H]

Originally Posted by honda03842

In some measure trailer sway is related to trailer loading.

VERY true. Have done my share of removing, moving items within the trailer to try and sort out a wiggly trailer in side winds at highway speeds. Both with my previous small tug and my current larger tug. Have also followed lots of people with FG trailers leaving a FG meets that are clearly wiggling around more than I would ever be comfortable towing in any condition. It suggests to me that what one party feels is a solid safe tow is another very subjective topic.

Each tow vehicle & trailer combo is unique for many reasons, just a couple of which are the distance from the rear wheels of the vehicle to the hitch point, distance from the rear wheels of the vehicle to the wheel of the trailer, stiffness of the rear of the vehicle. Which is why I found that even though I was towing the same trailer as you Norm and it was/is one of the lightest of the 16' Scamps on the Real World Weight list I still needed to but 240lbs on the tongue to get what I believe a nice solid tow should feel like in all towing/weather conditions. In fact the only 16' Scamp with a 200lb tongue weight on the Real World List was mine! If I could I would put a disclaimer on that list it would read "do not try this at home"! LOL It was weighed right after I had run a short lived test to see how well it did with only 200lbs on the tongue. It did not tow well at over 55mph or side winds thus why the same trailer appears on the list again it has a tongue weight of 240lbs. Which BTW is still on the light side when compared to other 16' Scamps on the list.

When someone comes to this forum asking if they can tow a specific trailer with a specific vehicle with a marginal or low of a tow spec rating, unless I had towed with the exactly the same vehicle & trailer combo the party is asking about, there is no way I can or would say they will do "just fine" with that combo. To many variables make it to much of a crap-shoot for my liking.

In regard to the OP's vehicle & specs posted, it looks to me that they will have more than enough power to pull the 13' Scamp trailer BUT and it’s a big BUT, I honestly think they are going to really struggle with getting a well balanced trailer that tows well in all conditions, considering the layout & options they are wanting. That is if they are also wishing to play it safe and stay within the vehicle manufactures specs. But then again I could be wrong it may do fine... my comments are based on my experience with a completely different small tug & trailer combo.

Looking at the options list: front bath, dual propane tanks, Group 27 battery, AC, extra side cabinets that a 200lb tongue weight is going to REALLY hard to achieve and once the trailer is loaded up and the weighed they may well find that 200lbs is not enough to keep it all nice and solidly towing in a strength line behind them. Unless they choose to not travel over 55mph. Again I could be wrong about that as well.

Many of us make the assumption that the personal items we load into the trailer weigh much less than what they actually do. For those who have taken the time to weigh their trailers empty of all personal belongings such as bedding, clothing, food, drinks, dishes, pots and pans, games, towels, flashlights, first aid kits, tool kits, spare parts, radios, coffee makers, hoses, electrical cords, wheel chocks, levelling blocks, cameras, laptops etc and then load up the trailer with all that stuff again and re weigh the trailer they are usually shocked to learn what it all weighs. Of those I know who have actually done it, 500lbs is not an unreasonable number & may actually be on the low side for many.

Jon raised a good point and that is that is the issue of taking stuff out of the trailer & moving it into the tug to get the over all weight of the trailer down to accommodate the low tongue weight spec of the vehicle. In doing so one needs to be mindful that the vehicle for safety reason also has a GVWR spec. Many/most of the small or mid sized tow vehicles have a pay load # that is actually pretty low - two passengers, the family dog and the trailers tongue weight will often put it right at its max. Putting anything else in the vehicle can result in going over the vehicles GVWR which can impact its braking ability.

I like that the OP has put the time into working out the numbers & understanding what they actually mean. Would be great if someone here had actually used the same tow vehicle and trailer combo so they could add their actually experience with it. Without actual experience with the combo being considered the rest of us are offering nothing more the advice that is based on each of our own experiences with a different combo. Thus the reason many here take the safest approach and suggest the OP follows the time tested best towing practise that have proven for years to work for the majority of trailer & tug combos.

There is BTW another important number to consider that is missing from the OP's list. It is the Combined weight number set by the vehicles manufacture.

Funny enough I am currently looking at a trailer change so I have been spending a lot of time looking at numbers and doing the math on paper as well. One can pick a trailer that has a GVWR under their vehicles towing spec & on the tug side with passengers, pets and a hundred pounds of personal items loaded & the trailers tongue weight added on it also comes in under the vehicles GVWR. BUT the combined weigh of the loaded trailer and the loaded vehicle may be over the tug manufactures Combined Weight Rating. Sad but true.

Just as there are many reasons for sway there are also many different tug and trailer combos that may not work well together for many reasons.

[Borrego Dave]

Good post Carol

[DeanCHS1980]

Hi All,

Thank you for your responses, reflections, and wisdom regarding my proposed Rondo/Scamp 13’ combo.

Jon, it does look like a loaded 13’ Layout 2 Big Bed will push my 2,000 lb load limit. More importantly, I think the tongue weight will be an issue. I could probably trim our wish list of options a bit, including using only one propane tank rather than two and going with the standard battery rather than the larger battery. I don’t think driving style will be an issue. For the first few years, we would be weekending and doing a couple of longer trips per year. I assume RVing is about slowing down. Of course, durability could be an issue.

Kathy, yes, I love doing RV research!!! ☺ I am not totally in love with the Rondo. I bought it in the Summer of 2009 after the economy had tanked. It listed for $24,000, I bought it for less than $17,000 brand new. My main reason for wanting to use it is that is paid for!!! Effective August, 2016, we will be empty nesters, but will have our two girls in college. If I can pull with the Rondo, I can avoid purchasing a tug & trailer. But, my DW and I want to get out there asap. We do not want to wait until the girls graduate from college.

Felix, I am impressed with how light you travel with your Casita! Also, impressive in terms of full timing. My DW has never camped much and I think both of us will want certain creature comforts and more or less a “tiny house” on wheels!

Jon, I am reading closely information related to towing, weight, trailer weight, tongue weight, GVWR, GVCR, CCC, etc. Lots to comprehend.

Bob, I appreciate your conservative and passionate encouragement to tow safely. This will be our first endeavor at RVing. We want to get on the road asap, but we will not do it at the expense of safety. We can drop the extra propane tank and the heavier battery, but we cannot compromise on the bathroom. We want a wet bath. We don’t mind buying used, but finding a 13’ with a wet bath AND a 54 inch bed gives us very few options.

Roger, I appreciate your welcome! I also appreciate your suggestions on how to cut weight. But, we will want more than a porti-potti!!! Call us softies.

Norm and Ginny, as always, love hearing your insights and experiences. I also value your encouragement. If we decide to go with the Rondo as a tug, we definitely will get a trailer with electric brakes, a transmission cooler, and would consider an anti-sway bar.

Carol, wow, thank your for sharing your experiences. You seem to point out and integrate what others are saying: the tug/trailer is a unique combination that involves a number of variables. There seems to be a lot of gray area in terms of balancing the efficiency of a smaller tug with a trailer that does not overwhelm the tug. I knew the tug/trailer weight issue was a very important issue; however, I am learning that even the tongue weight is a critical issue and that it is not as simple as ensuring that the tongue weight is 10% or less of the trailer weight. I know now that the % of tongue weight relative to trailer weight must be considered. I wish you the best with your potential trailer change.

It would be nice to hear from someone that owns a Scamp 13’ Layout 2 Big Bed. I will post an abridged version of my original post on the SOI forum. I have perused the SOI forums some, but tend to spend my time here on FGRV.com. I kinda of assumed that folks that are on SOI are also spending time here as well.

Thanks again in terms of helping with my questions. Looking forward to learning as much as I can!!!

Take care!

[Bob Miller]

If you are pretty much destined to buying a new one, right now might be a good time to contact Scamp and, if they have one exactly like you want already in the build queue, ask if you can get an actual weight of it so as to be able to order yours based on that information.
Linking an order to your request should help get the info you want.

[kootenaigirl]

We had the Scamp 13 deluxe with the bathroom and big bed and I loved it. Eventually we went to the Casita 17 as our vehicle can tow it and we wanted the separate side dinette to avoid taking the bed up and down (I like an afternoon nap ) We also have a larger dog so space in the Scamp was tight with bed down.
I wouldn't hesitate to buy another Scamp with that floor plan though in the future as the use of space is very efficient and I love having the bathroom.

[DeanCHS1980]

Bob, if we rule out Plan A as outlined here, our Plan B will involve a 16' to 17' FG rig with a different tug, but I want to fully investigate Plan A first. Contacting Scamp is a good idea. I wanted to test the waters here first to see whether or not I was in the ballpark (watching baseball game) with the Rondo/Scamp 13 combo. If we go to Plan B, we will be more likely to consider used. I just don't think there will be much in terms of used with our Plan A requirements.

kootenai girl, thank you for your post regarding your Scamp 13 Deluxe with bathroom and big bed. I would love to know your trailer weight and tongue weight both empty and loaded to camp. Do you have that information?

Thanks,

Dean

[kootenaigirl]

Sorry Dean, I did have it but of course mislaid it!

I did find a post from another forum member though for his 2014 Scamp Deluxe 13 with bathroom, 1 propane tank and battery. NO AC or awning, totally empty - 230 tongue weight and 1420 axle weight, total 1650lbs.