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Old 09-21-2018, 10:24 AM   #61
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Originally Posted by widgetwizard View Post
We all love our molded FG trailers- but are we being selfish?

I have no agenda here - just curious.
There are a lot of clever folks on here that may be able to contribute to this.

My question is - Are Molded FG trailers greener than Stick-built trailers?

What I mean by this is which one has the better carbon footprint?
Both trailer styles basically use the same appliances/running gear/systems.
Most seem to have some "wood" in the floor
The only significant build difference is the "shell"

So, does spraying gelcoat and laying up fiberglass put more Volatiles into the air than powder coating aluminum?



Since they end up "heavy" does the extra fuel burn to pull them around matter?

I really dont know.
Do you?

We know that FG lasts a lot longer so we can allow them to be less green based on their durability, but which style wins overall?

Jim

I don't know about travel trailers but I felt a lot better when the US military went to "green" environmentally friendly lead free bullets to kill our enemies with.
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Old 09-21-2018, 10:31 AM   #62
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Here is a question I really don't know the answer to:


Which puts the most carbon dioxide into the air, A Toyota pulling a Scamp on a 1,200 mile camping trip or a huffing and puffing bicyclist pulling a bike trailer with a tent and camping gear on a 1,200 mile camping trip?
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Old 09-21-2018, 11:31 AM   #63
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Originally Posted by Bruce H View Post
Here is a question I really don't know the answer to:


Which puts the most carbon dioxide into the air, A Toyota pulling a Scamp on a 1,200 mile camping trip or a huffing and puffing bicyclist pulling a bike trailer with a tent and camping gear on a 1,200 mile camping trip?
Its the Toy-Yoda.

If you gotta huff and puff, you ain't gonna pull a bike trailer 1200 miles.


The Toy-Yoda sez...




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Old 09-21-2018, 12:10 PM   #64
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I visited the Queen Mary once. I remember a plaque that said it's fuel economy was 19 feet per gallon. I wonder about the fuel economy for each passenger?


That gets me to thinking: When a 160 lb hobo hitches a ride on a freight train how does that affect the fuel consumption of the engine(s)?


Even though I have a scientific and mathematical mind I can't understand the connection between taxes and greenhouse gas emissions. How does taxing a bicycle reduce the volume of CO2 exhaled by the rider? How do carbon credits neutralize the emissions of a jet aircraft? Who is the recipient of those funds? Is there an assurance they will not be spent on other emission producing things?
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Old 09-21-2018, 12:30 PM   #65
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A company that is not in the position to upgrade equipment to pollute less can buy credits to cover emissions. They buy those credits from companies that have upgraded.
In BC we pay a carbon tax. That money is returned to taxpayers. So the more carbon you emit, the more tax you pay, but you get back the same amount as everybody else.
It works.
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Old 09-21-2018, 01:07 PM   #66
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I don’t think we have to worry about millions of years. Things may be winding down now. The universe was made for us. It is not relevant without us.

Mathematics is composed of absolutes. No compromise, no how someone feels, absolutes. (admittedly those absolutes may be difficult or impossible for mankind to perceive)

A study of cosmology with its attendant physics and mathematics reveals strong indications about some fascinating aspects of the universe and of time.

Time is in some way related to the speed of light traveling through space.

Space (and by proxy distance) is compressed by gravity. The stronger the gravity the more dense the empty space in its field.

Matter is composed of atoms which are particles of electrical energy. They are mostly empty space which means that Earth is mostly empty space. This is evidenced by neutrinos which travel at high speed (among which are particles that have been released by atomic decay in the Sun) being able to pass completely through Earth and out the other side without hitting anything.

Black holes have been proven to exist. They have such strong gravity that nothing, not even light, can escape them.

Light trapped in a black hole is still moving at the speed of light, its just not going anywhere. (and time is not passing)

Scientific and mathematical evidence indicates that everything in the Universe was at one time contained in a single point. Then there was the "big bang" that we have all heard about.

Outside this singularity there was nothing with a capitol N. No light, no empty space, no passage of time. (there may not have even been that singularity)

Then (sorry, "then" is a reference to a point in time which is impossible because time didn't exist) from this nothing, the universe burst open, light was released, time and space began, matter was formed into the elements. (some of which assembled itself into life with a drive to reproduce itself) Then some of that life developed an awareness of its own existence.


Logic is a form of mathematics.


Faith??
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Old 09-21-2018, 03:44 PM   #67
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bruce H View Post
Mathematics is composed of absolutes. No compromise, no how someone feels, absolutes. (admittedly those absolutes may be difficult or impossible for mankind to perceive)

A study of cosmology with its attendant physics and mathematics reveals strong indications about some fascinating aspects of the universe and of time.

Time is in some way related to the speed of light traveling through space.

Space (and by proxy distance) is compressed by gravity. The stronger the gravity the more dense the empty space in its field.

Matter is composed of atoms which are particles of electrical energy. They are mostly empty space which means that Earth is mostly empty space. This is evidenced by neutrinos which travel at high speed (among which are particles that have been released by atomic decay in the Sun) being able to pass completely through Earth and out the other side without hitting anything.

Black holes have been proven to exist. They have such strong gravity that nothing, not even light, can escape them.

Light trapped in a black hole is still moving at the speed of light, its just not going anywhere. (and time is not passing)

Scientific and mathematical evidence indicates that everything in the Universe was at one time contained in a single point. Then there was the "big bang" that we have all heard about.

Outside this singularity there was nothing with a capitol N. No light, no empty space, no passage of time. (there may not have even been that singularity)

Then (sorry, "then" is a reference to a point in time which is impossible because time didn't exist) from this nothing, the universe burst open, light was released, time and space began, matter was formed into the elements. (some of which assembled itself into life with a drive to reproduce itself) Then some of that life developed an awareness of its own existence.


Logic is a form of mathematics.


Faith??
Problem is... Those mathematical absolutes have been subject to change repeatedly as we have learned more. There is absolute mathematical truth, we just can't yet be sure we have ascertained it....

Mathematics IS a form of logic seen through a glass dimly, so far.


Remember Carl Sagan?



Now he knows!
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Old 09-21-2018, 05:08 PM   #68
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mathematics is an abstraction used to model reality. models suffer from all sorts of issues.

lets take something really simple... how long is the coast of northern California? answer depends on how big of a ruler you use... the smaller the ruler, the more nooks and crannies, the longer the coast. get that ruler down small enough that you're measuring around the perimeter of grains of sand, and its far far longer than if you looked at a state map and measured from the Golden Gate to the Oregon border, which would give you around 330 miles...
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Old 09-21-2018, 07:06 PM   #69
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Never believe science as our understanding is improved as we study and the minor details might change.
Far better is to just make stuff up to fit your vision of reality.
Of course using that process it is very hard to design an build functioning systems which is a pretty good test of what is right or wrong
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Old 09-21-2018, 07:20 PM   #70
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Originally Posted by Bruce H View Post
Here is a question I really don't know the answer to:


Which puts the most carbon dioxide into the air, A Toyota pulling a Scamp on a 1,200 mile camping trip or a huffing and puffing bicyclist pulling a bike trailer with a tent and camping gear on a 1,200 mile camping trip?
Yes you have to factor in the bicyclist is also expelling methane so you have to factor that into total emissions.
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Old 09-21-2018, 08:56 PM   #71
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any CO2 emitted from an animal, including said bicycle rider, came from the food they ate, which was recently fixed carbon from plants, even if the plants were preprocessed by animals. the issue with fossil fuel CO2 emissions is that we're re-emitting CO2 that was fixed out of the air in Paleozoic times when the atmosphere had massively higher CO2 levels that we'd find toxic today.
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Old 09-23-2018, 08:39 AM   #72
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bruce H View Post
...

Black holes have been proven to exist. They have such strong gravity that nothing, not even light, can escape them.

Light trapped in a black hole is still moving at the speed of light, its just not going anywhere. (and time is not passing)

...

Logic is a form of mathematics.


Faith??




I'd just like to point out that black holes do, in fact, emit "something." And that's called "Hawking radiation," after you-know-who, who predicted that something might well, in fact, come out of them. And sure enough.

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Old 09-23-2018, 08:41 AM   #73
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Quote:
Originally Posted by John in Santa Cruz View Post
any CO2 emitted from an animal, including said bicycle rider, came from the food they ate, which was recently fixed carbon from plants, even if the plants were preprocessed by animals. the issue with fossil fuel CO2 emissions is that we're re-emitting CO2 that was fixed out of the air in Paleozoic times when the atmosphere had massively higher CO2 levels that we'd find toxic today.


John in Santa Cruz: well-stated.

And remember the giant ferns, giant ground sloths, giant insects (size of volkswagons?) and DINOSAURS? They all thrived on the far higher CO2 levels.

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Old 09-23-2018, 08:58 AM   #74
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What about some of the BS levels in this thread?
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Old 09-23-2018, 09:10 AM   #75
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What about some of the BS levels in this thread?
That would produce a lot of methane, not near as beneficial as CO2 can be, though if harnessed correctly can provide a good source of fuel. Though this burned methane would then produce CO2.
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Old 09-23-2018, 09:20 AM   #76
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That would produce a lot of methane, not near as beneficial as CO2 can be, though if harnessed correctly can provide a good source of fuel. Though this burned methane would then produce CO2.
Actually the methane is a stronger greenhouse gas than CO2.
Cow flatulence is a growing problem.
So rising temps are not a problem, right.
That is because it is not acceptable to the corporations that make lots of money adding to the CO2 levels.
Of course all of this has happened before, as evidenced by most of the US being under water at one time or another.
Jackson Hole is probably OK from rising water levels, but the snow pack and powder might be different.
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Old 09-23-2018, 09:40 AM   #77
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Jackson will sink back into its Hole when the LARGE volcano calderone that we call Yellowstone BLOWS!

Should put cow methane output to shame along with a few other gases!
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Old 09-23-2018, 09:46 AM   #78
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Originally Posted by redbarron55 View Post
Actually the methane is a stronger greenhouse gas than CO2.
Cow flatulence is a growing problem.
So rising temps are not a problem, right.
That is because it is not acceptable to the corporations that make lots of money adding to the CO2 levels.
Of course all of this has happened before, as evidenced by most of the US being under water at one time or another.
Jackson Hole is probably OK from rising water levels, but the snow pack and powder might be different.
Ummm..... I was just joking around. Trying to lighten the mood a little.
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Old 09-23-2018, 10:18 AM   #79
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Don't forget, though, that many lands that were once under the ocean are now high up in the air due to plate tectonics pushing continental plates together and upwards...it's not just that there was more water at other times (and less ice). Although that's true. And some places, like Death Valley, are actually below sea level and given the right (if you can call it right) earthquake, will be underwater very quickly. (I don't want to camp there, given the current tension in the San Andreas Fault!)

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Old 09-23-2018, 10:24 AM   #80
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Originally Posted by Eric Frye View Post
From a manufacturing stand point plastic has twice the carbon foot print as wood and aluminum has four times the foot print of wood. So by that thought process a stick built camper could be more or less depending on the skin.

Are you specifically talking about plastic, or does that include fiberglass, which isn't exactly plastic, or we'd call them All-Molded-Plastic-Trailers.

Just wondering.

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