Auxillary heat for a small TT

[Perryb67]

Originally Posted by Barb Hunt

I have a small NOMA circulating oil heater in my 19-ft Escape and it works very well in sub-freezing temperatures here on Vancouver Island. There's no emissions because it's a closed system, works on electricity, and is completely quiet. It means that I don't have to have the propane furnace on at night which makes for a quiet sleep.

But it doesn't work without electricity! We have a Honeywell 1500 watt heater for when we have electric services.

However, we're talking about heating without services. An electric heater is worthless when you have no services.

Enjoy,

Perry

[Rzrbrn]

What Perry said...

[Daniel A.]

One might also look at 12 volt electric blankets they draw about 4.5 amps hour.

[k corbin]

Originally Posted by Daniel A.

One might also look at 12 volt electric blankets they draw about 4.5 amps hour.

but they won't keep water lines from freezing...

[k0wtz]

what the perry said! practice will help in getting things to work. I wouldn't take an extended trip in cold wx without getting some practice in!

good 20d wx will break you in! LOL

bob

[amieVA]

Originally Posted by k0wtz

My best advice is to get a Campo Wave 3 heater. It has 2 settings high or low and uses very little propane. I vent top 1/4in and side 1/4in we have used this setup for 3 years and its the best we have found.


I put in a quick disconnect with an 8ft hose so we can place it anywhere in the camper then in the morning we disconnect.


we just got back from Quartzite and used it nightly in 20d weather! it kept the camper warm..


bob

Hi there,
We are relative newbies with a 17 ft casita and would love to go to Quartzite next year. Would you mind providing some more details on how you hooked up the Campo heater to the propane? Where did you put in the quick disconnect? Did you have to cut a hole somewhere? I don't like to be cold, and we would like to do more boondocking.
Thanks!

[Defenestrator]

In terms of CO production, there's not a significant difference between the Wave and Buddy heaters, and both are probably better than the candle lantern. The key either way is oxygen. When things burn in an oxygen-rich environment they produce a lot of CO2, and when the oxygen content drops it starts producing more CO instead. That's why the Buddy heater has an O2 sensor - as long as there's plenty of O2, it probably won't produce CO. It's also why ventilation is important - not so much to let the CO out as to make sure the O2 percentage doesn't drop even slightly.

Altitude is a problem for any of them. The Buddy heater fails by shutting off above 7K feet while the Wave heaters keep functioning, but above 8K-9K feet (or possibly lower) the Wave heaters will start to produce dangerous amounts of CO even with good ventilation.

[gordon2]

Originally Posted by Defenestrator

.... but above 8K-9K feet (or possibly lower) the Wave heaters will start to produce dangerous amounts of CO even with good ventilation.

And in a shocking omission they forgot to include this restriction on operation at altitude in the manual!

[Rzrbrn]

"Altitude is a problem for any of them. The Buddy heater fails by shutting off above 7K feet while the Wave heaters keep functioning, but above 8K-9K feet (or possibly lower) the Wave heaters will start to produce dangerous amounts of CO even with good ventilation."

Thanks Elliot, I did not know that about the Wave. I have a Mr. Heater Buddy, but was seriously considering getting a Wave. But not now. Holy Crap.

[k0wtz]

First of all all the fitting are 3/8in flare. If you don't know gas get someone who does. I ordered all my parts off Amazon you basically split a line put a t in, get a camco flex gas line, get a quick disconnect, then I run the hose out the cabinent door the hose is 6f or so and place the heater wherever I want.

ABSOLUTELY MAKE SURE YOU VENT 1/4IN AT TOP AND 1/4IN AT THE SIDE. IMPORTANT OR YOU WILL DIE.

don't get scared but you have to follow this rule

bob

Originally Posted by amieVA

Hi there,
We are relative newbies with a 17 ft casita and would love to go to Quartzite next year. Would you mind providing some more details on how you hooked up the Campo heater to the propane? Where did you put in the quick disconnect? Did you have to cut a hole somewhere? I don't like to be cold, and we would like to do more boondocking.
Thanks!

[k0wtz]

well common sense will tell you to not put water in your lines in winter camping.

bob

Originally Posted by k corbin

but they won't keep water lines from freezing...

[MelH]

Originally Posted by Rzrbrn

Thanks for the clarification. I had this years ago: (Amazon) Coleman BlackCat PerfecTemp Catalytic Heater. The first time being used it was great. The second time less so and the third time it would not light at all. I kept it in the box for a long time and would try it now and then after the third attempt, but it never worked again. However, I may just give it another try, based on your recommendation.

The Coleman Blackcat is not longer available. Martin and Mr. Heater seem to sell them however. I will do a bit of research on these: I am seeing the typical discourse about catalytic heaters regarding carbon monoxide.

Just read that Catalytic heaters cannot work above about 7K feet altitude. We spend a lot of time around 9K feet and above.

I suppose we will take our Mr. Heater Buddy and just use in when in lower altitudes.

Could you tell me where you read that Catalytic heaters cannot work about 7k'?
Perhaps it was someone that, like me, read/experienced in the Buddy heaters malfunctioning above 7k' AND believed Buddy was Catalytic AND assumed the same limitation applied to all Catalytic heaters?

If it was misunderstood from me that I must apologize.
I'm using my Wave6 Catalytic heater frequently above 7k', have not had the RV poor-quality CO/CO2 sensor activate w/proper ventilation, but do not have access to 'real' sensors.

Thanks! MelH

[Rzrbrn]

Mel, see post #27. I will also Google and if I come up with anything will post here.

[gordon2]

Originally Posted by Rzrbrn

Mel, see post #27. I will also Google and if I come up with anything will post here.

Because you can believe everything you read on the Internet?

Why not call the manufacturer? Due to the liability I would think that they would advise against any use that was the least bit risky.

[Rzrbrn]

it depends on whom is telling me what.

[wilyoung]

Originally Posted by Daniel A.

One might also look at 12 volt electric blankets they draw about 4.5 amps hour.

First off what is "about 4.5 amps hour"? Amps is a rate of electric usage. The "hour" has nothing to do with it.


Secondly, if the blanket draws 4.5 Amps (continuously) it will use approximately 36 Amp-Hours overnight (8 hours). If you've got a 100 AH rated battery it's best if you don't draw more than half of that before recharging. Battery life is greatly diminished if you drain deep cycle batteries below 50%. So, you'd better have a fully charged battery when you go to bed, and be ready to charge it up shortly after you get up in the morning.


Electric heat is expensive, battery supply wise, whether it's blankets, heaters, fridges, or whatever. Not recommended.

[RogerDat]

The oxygen depletion sensor essentially is a heat sensor that depends on the flame being robust enough to keep the sensor hot. Above 7k elevation the lower oxygen already available can keep the flame from being robust enough to keep the sensor hot.

Essentially the ambient level of oxygen above 7k elevation reduces the flame or heat output enough to constantly trip the ODS to shut off the gas supply.

People have used candle, kerosene and oil lamps to keep the chill off for centuries. i have used a candle lantern in a snow cave. It makes a difference.

If one candle can do the job then two should be a bit warmer. I have winter camped with a single mantle propane lantern on very low and it will run all night. You adjust the propane lantern so it will be adjusted to ambient oxygen level no mater what the elevation.

If you run the furnace until warm and then use the small heat source to help maintain the temperature I think you can keep it comfortable with very little furnace use. For winter auto travel they suggest a large candle in the emergency kit because it can keep the car at 10* above ambient temperature. And if the auto heat is run 15 minute each hour the candle can keep the car comfortable on 1/4 the fuel consumption.


Yes you need to provide some fresh air ventilation and have a CO alarm both things you should always do, but if a candle lantern does the job pack extra candles and a second lantern. Without ventilation 2 people will breath out enough moisture to make things a bit dampish and uncomfortable without ventilation irrespective of heat source.

[Defenestrator]

In terms of citations for what I was talking about...

This guy saw some pretty disconcerting results with a CO meter. Dangerous levels at 10,000ft with the Wave heater. CO levels at 6,100ft were a bit concerning as well since it could build up over time, though the claims on that page that it's enough lighter than air to rise instead of staying diffusing fairly evenly are questionable.

There's somewhat a shortage of formal study data for CO production vs altitude that I could find, but oxygen concentration can be used as a good proxy for that since it's the partial pressure of O2 that matters in terms of CO vs CO2 produced by combustion.

This CPSC study shows a (different model) catalytic heater generating 110ppm ( above the dangerous threshold for extended exposure) when oxygen drops to 15.1%. That's about the same partial pressure as 20.95% oxygen at ~8800ft.

The catalytic heaters (and the Mr Heater Buddy, even though it's not technically catalytic) do a good job of controlling combustion so that at standard partial pressure of oxygen they don't emit significant amounts of CO or unburnt propane (unlike an uncontrolled flame like a candle, or standard outdoor propane heater), but once the oxygen content falls through either depletion or lower pressure they're no longer able to maintain that control and CO emissions climb. The higher the altitude, the lower your margins get in terms of how much ventilation is enough.

Not directly related, but also interesting is this CPSC study that shows the oxygen depletion sensor doing a good job of shutting the burner off before CO concentrations get dangerously high.

Everyone's feel free to make their own decisions in terms of personal risk tolerance, but it's important that those decisions are fully-informed .

[Daniel A.]

Originally Posted by wilyoung

First off what is "about 4.5 amps hour"? Amps is a rate of electric usage. The "hour" has nothing to do with it.


Secondly, if the blanket draws 4.5 Amps (continuously) it will use approximately 36 Amp-Hours overnight (8 hours). If you've got a 100 AH rated battery it's best if you don't draw more than half of that before recharging. Battery life is greatly diminished if you drain deep cycle batteries below 50%. So, you'd better have a fully charged battery when you go to bed, and be ready to charge it up shortly after you get up in the morning.


Electric heat is expensive, battery supply wise, whether it's blankets, heaters, fridges, or whatever. Not recommended.

Clearly my battery is much better than yours.

[Rzrbrn]

But, but, but my battery is bigger than yours...

Seriously though, being basically an ignorant person, I took the OEM battery in my 2019 Big Foot down to 2% before I found out that my generator was not running long enough each day to keep the battery charged. I am still using the battery but it will not hold a charge. I am trying to have solar installed and use Lithium batteries, but that plan is on hold at the moment so I may need to just replace the lead acid and try again later this year.