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Old 04-21-2011, 07:19 AM   #201
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Originally Posted by Kip in Ga. View Post
Interesting stuff, thanks guys!

After looking at the link and pictures, it makes me wonder if a PU truck's bed "camper shell" sloped from the cab to the tail gate would make any difference in fuel mileage when not towing!
Kip, excellent question.

There is a great forum called ecomodder.com were several members have built their own aero caps for pickups. Many have fuel logs showing substantial MPG improvement. Members share peer reviewed literature and many go so far as to apply scientific methods like ABA testing. Data quality follows accordingly. One member pursued a patent on his design and wants to bring a smarter camper shell to market. A few focus on trailers. Good stuff!

For anyone interested a great book called The Aerodynamics of Road Vehicles by W. Hucho. Chapter 4 is Aerodynamic Drag of Passenger Cars with a section (4.4.13) on Car With Trailer. That includes some German research showing interaction between tugs and trailers of varying shape. It's not the end-all be-all but it's helpful, especially with $4/gal gas.
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Old 04-21-2011, 07:33 AM   #202
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Keep on Truckin Lill Snoozy, Great job on your design
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Old 04-21-2011, 09:16 AM   #203
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Thanks, Robert! You have a beautiful camper---one I'd be proud to own.

Vickie
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Old 04-21-2011, 11:09 AM   #204
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I speak for myself and possibly others may feel the same way, but aeronautics is the last thing I'm worried about in contemplating purchasing a new rv. Is it nice inside, will I be comfortable, is it affordable, and is it better than the current rv I have. Is the fit and finish nice and does it meet my needs. Then, after all that, I may think, well I may only get xxx mpg vs yyy mpg and should I spend the extra $$$. It is an issue that I am not concerned with. Amen...
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Old 04-21-2011, 11:20 AM   #205
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Originally Posted by cpaharley2008 View Post
I speak for myself and possibly others may feel the same way, but aeronautics is the last thing I'm worried about in contemplating purchasing a new rv. Is it nice inside, will I be comfortable, is it affordable, and is it better than the current rv I have. Is the fit and finish nice and does it meet my needs. .
i remember reading a review of the Ford Fairmont when it first came out back in the olden days. The reviewer commented that it moved through the air with the grace of a brick.

Some stick-and-staple trailers move through the air with the grace of a brick. That's why I like the Airstream/Argosy, Avion, Silver Streak and other non-brick RVs like the majority of the fibreglass trailers. Anything is better than a brick.

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Old 04-21-2011, 11:32 AM   #206
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Ah' The late Dale Earnhardt said the same thing about the Chevy Lumina, " It's like driving a brick".
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Old 04-21-2011, 12:21 PM   #207
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Hi All.....it's been awhile since I have been on here.

Nick and Ole~ man Snoozy......I have to say, when we didn't have any photos of the camper back in Feb.....I was starting to doubt your word.
Soooo many scams out there today, it's not like the old days when you could do things with a hand shake. Anyway,,,,,
I commend you on what you are doing......the price is great....it's exactly what we are looking for.......so my next question is: How do my wife and I get on the list for ordering one?

The only thing that I would LOVE to have is the fold away receiver....is that possible yet? It would be so nice to park it in the garage....even if we have to let some of the air out of the tires to do so.
Sincerely,
Linda & Lew
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Old 04-21-2011, 05:25 PM   #208
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My comment about the shape was more along the line of wishful thinking than any kind of criticism. I understand that outer shape is largely dictated by what one is trying to do with the interior. Sorry to have stirred up a hornet's nest! I had no idea...

I am perhaps in a different position than most here, in that I tow a trailer every workday to make deliveries. So I'm watching and wishing for a new work trailer and would like to have the best gas mileage possible for the 20,000 miles a year I must tow it. Right now Lil Snoozy looks better than anything else I've seen for that purpose, short of having something custom-built (which is still a possibility).

A somewhat different rounding on the back end might grant an extra couple mpg's, I'm guessing. But for those who only travel a few hundred or few thousand miles per year, a difference of 1 or 2 mpg is not really significant. The Snoozy shape should be quite good for its designed purpose.
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Old 04-21-2011, 07:41 PM   #209
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Wow. I thought about doing a quote and reply, but gee,it would take up another page of cyberspace. Isn't the post from Li'l Snoozy (the Old Man) close to a record for the longest post ever on this board?

Nice looking trailer. I hope they do well. It's a huge investment of time and money to bring something like this to market.

Sherry
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Old 04-21-2011, 07:46 PM   #210
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KamperBob View Post
Moderators: I apologize for contributing to this mess. Could the topic be split and move a few posts to something like aerodynamics of trailers? Is that possible? Keep this topic a love fest if y'all want. Just a suggestion...thanks.
I will bring it to the attention to the Moderation/Administrative staff.
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Old 04-22-2011, 07:02 AM   #211
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Originally Posted by SherryNPaul View Post
Wow. I thought about doing a quote and reply, but gee,it would take up another page of cyberspace. Isn't the post from Li'l Snoozy (the Old Man) close to a record for the longest post ever on this board?

Nice looking trailer. I hope they do well. It's a huge investment of time and money to bring something like this to market.

Sherry
Recon they have sat and read and "stewed" about as long as they could without defending their product. As he said, the shape is not perfect.

But it is likely as close as they could get it and still have room for a comfortable and quality interior. Think we will be seeing Lil'Snoozys on the road as fast as they can build them. Once in production, it wouldn't supprise me to see a 6 month or longer wait time. REAL QUICK!

Also likely to see some, uh..."New designs" from the other "Eggs"

Kip
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Old 04-22-2011, 09:23 AM   #212
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Peace talks

I apologize. Robert found my aerodynamic comments personally offensive. That makes me sad. I like the trailer. I listed the new manufacturer on Egg Central back in January the day I first heard about Lil Snoozy. Despite warnings that it could be a scam I kept the web site listed anyway. I gave the company benefit of doubt.

I too was hungry for pix. The web site art work suggested a shape that excited me. A well tapered rear would be a killer design aerodynamically. Finish what T@B started and give Airstream Basecamp a run for the money but in glass. I was stoked. Nicholas' confirmation in post 179 was bitter sweet. I fully understand and actually respect the design poetry. Usability is a priority. I know. I've been RVing for over 30 years. Still I hoped for something bolder and more revolutionary. As Mike said wishful thinking.

My constructive criticism skills are not great. I could have started off with things I like about the trailer I suppose. The thread was already long and my list was redundant to features already covered. I do like big tires, cassette toilet and fiber-foam sandwich double hull for example. This could be a nice cargo trailer. It will be a fine camper no doubt. I look forward to seeing both. And I wish the company every success in the market. Competition is great. Everybody wins.

My aerodynamic comments were badly misunderstood. Is a bullet trailer more aero than a brick? Yup. Is a bullet trailer more aero than an egg? Nope. Different conversations. My caveats in posts 184 and 194 could have been clearer I guess. My wordsmith skills leave room for improvement.

I stand by my tech comments about shape performance. Not because I am an expert. I am not. But I have done a lot of research and have something to contribute. Reproducing content here without permission is a problem (copyright law). I'll share more knowledge and references if the tech talk is appreciated. A separate topic seems appropriate to me.

I may have misunderstood this thread. I thought Nicholas valued input from everyone not just the moral support. Based on post 166 I thought my knowledge and opinions might be appreciated. So I weighed in about aerodynamics. My goal was to improve understanding. I also suggested adjustable axle location for balance across configurations. Safety first.

I did not appreciate my words misquoted and facts distorted. Questioning my honesty is not acceptable. Accusing me of slander is deeply disturbing. A bigger man with thicker skin could shrug it off. I was insulted.

I respect Robert's passion. Maybe I bore the brunt of some residual hurt from early skepticism by others. I understand pride in workmanship and durable gratification from seeing your own creation through to completion. I have enough manufacturing experience to appreciate that start-up effort must be ginormous. We probably have far more in common than first name. I'm sorry my comments felt like a personal attack to Robert and ignited those passions. I also regret taking humor at his expense with my LOL quip (post 200). That was not respectful and I apologize.
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Old 04-22-2011, 09:33 AM   #213
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Back to snoozy, anyone know the size of the storage bins that will go along the side? Wondered if they were small for leveling blocks or will be long enough for those popular folding chairs that are tube shaped when folded. That would sure be handy to toss chairs in there.
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Old 04-22-2011, 10:16 AM   #214
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This is an interesting thread. There's some people who think the roads are going to be packed with Lil Snoozies within a short period of time. (It does bother me that some people's posts here seem more like cheerleading than constructive discussion.) But there's a lot of others, like myself, who know that new fiberglass trailer manufacturers come and go and that it's awfully hard to make a go of it in a business like this. I wish the company well and certainly believe that the world needs more small fiberglass trailers and that variety and competition are are good things. But let's be honest. The odds are just as much against Lil Snoozy as they are against any other new RV manufacturer. Put your money down at your own risk. I have learned over time to never to be the first in line for new products, no matter what they are.

And I believe that KamperBob deserves apologies from a number of people. There was nothing in his posts that was offensive. In fact, he tried to have a reasonable discussion about trailer aerodynamics which I found very interesting. The fact that Robert from LS felt obligated to write a monster post to refute him shows that he might be a bit too sensitive about his design choices.

The truth is that Lil Snoozy will live or die not on superior design, but on marketing. Companies like Casita and Scamp continue to exist because they have found ways to sell their products. There's been a number of companies that have produced trailers that many people found superior but which they were unable to sell. It's a tough nut to crack especially since the established companies have literally thousands of owners/salespeople pulling their products all over North America. And as for trying to sell their trailer for less money than the others, that seems like a recipe for disaster. All fiberglass trailer companies buy their products from the same sources. The only thing a lower price is going to do is take away the profit margin. People will pay a little more money for a superior product.

So good luck to Lil Snoozy. I do hope they prove me wrong. But right now, they are just another start-up company with one trailer and a whole lot of dreams.
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Old 04-22-2011, 12:43 PM   #215
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Originally Posted by LiL Snoozy View Post
Good evening forum, The "Old Man" of LiL Snoozy asked me to post this in response to some aerodynamic discussions.


Hello everyone, My name is Robert Smoak ( I am the old man at Smoakin Concepts Composites, creators of the Lil Snoozy). I generally don't talk very much and have let my son Nicholas handle all of the internet traffic of our new design and creation. But after seeing and reading some grossly in acurate info being thrown at me, my son , and our design I felt it was my duty to set the record straight with some accurate information. Mostly all of the comments on this site have been very supportive and we really appreciate that. Altho some at the beginning had doubts of us, have all since been extreamly nice since and some have even apologized for doubting us. That shows me the quality of the majority of the people on this site.


Now to get to why I am responding. We seem to have someone who is attempting to provide aeronautical information and has made some statements about aerodynamics that are totally false, inaccurate, and just plan with out any common sense. The use of some terminology are grossly inaccurate to the point they don't even vaguely resemble the definition of the wording being used.. He states he is a recreational engineer' I don't find that degree in any of the colleges I have delt with. So where does he really get his information or aeronautical knowledge?


Camper Bob I read these statements you have been making about aerodynamic properties and also of the aerodynamics of the LiL Snoozy. They at first I was upset, but after reading them for the second time I see that you are recreational engineer not an aeronautical or marine engineer. This is why I am responding to let you know that the info you have been provide and forwarding on this site is grossly inaccurate and unfounded to put it mildly. Obviously who ever gave you this information is trying to promote another brand or product by trying to slander the LiL Snoozy's design and advantages to say the least. That being said, the following should clear things up for those are really looking for the true facts to help them make their own educated decisions to better their lives, purchases and actions. All of the terms I list can be Google'd and proven correct for their own benefit.


For an example: Quote: “There is a critical speed that determines which rules apply. RVs operate in the super-critical flow regime.” This choice of words is interesting, as it is a Fluid Dynamics term not an aerodynamic term of which is where RV' really operate, but we will get to that in a few lines. From reading this passage I understand that an RV's velocity(super-critical flow regime) equates to a Froude ratio of 1 or greater, which is the simple definition of “super-critical flow regime”. This particular member states that Fluid dynamics and Aerodynamics are basically the same with different constants. This is completely accurate, Air (gas) acts the same (for the purpose of this argument) as water (fluid) simply with different resistant. When we take these factors into consideration, we can understand the translation between fluid and aerodynamics. A Froude ratio of greater than 1 in fluid dynamics is “super-critical flow regime”, when put into aerodynamic terms, a Froude ratio of greater than 1 is super sonic. For those of you not involved in aviation, super sonic is faster than the speed of sound (or about 760 MPH at sea level). Stated more simply, this member is saying that RV's are traveling at more than ten times the legal speed limit for most states. I am unaware of any RV's capable of that speed.


I am not an aeronautical engineer, but I have been a avid pilot for over 39 years, an aircraft builder, re-builder, modifier, and owner of over 43 different aircraft in my life. I know that sounds hard to believe but I use to buy restore and sell aircraft as a hobby. I have over 7,000 hrs as pilot on command. I have been heavily involved with the design of several experimental aircraft, builder of three from scratch and am very good friends with several REAL aeronautical engineers. Also I have been involved with boating since I was 7 years old, and have owned and operated boats from 13 feet up to long range 58 foot motor-yachts, and have done extensive long range cruising thru out the Caribbean. So I know a little bit about lift,drag, resistance, weight, fuel economy and efficiency. Do I know it all? Heck no, but I feel I have a lot of hands on experience. So I do know a little about fluid dynamics, and aerodynamics which are similar but also vastly different. And when I see some one spreading grossly inaccurate info to the public, that bothers me and when they make an outright a slanderous statement about a product I have put so much thought,blood, sweat, tears and money into I will come out swinging.
I am sorry for the length of this but I feel it is in the best interest of all on the Fiberglass RV Site to get real time accurate and verifiable information.
Lets for common sense discount all of the inaccurate $2.00 words and deal with the facts. 99 percent of all campers have a flat rear bulkhead, why, because it is more practical, it offers more room and ease of building. Is it the perfect shape? No but we all live in an age of compromise. Why are all 18 wheelers flat on the rear, same reasons. The space shuttle, the most expensive and researched vehicle known to man and unheard off amounts of money was spent to maximize it's efficiency and was designed to be extremely aerodynamic with a pointed front and a flat rear.


So to say that some thing that is pointed on the front, with rounded side is non aerodynamic is just a plan false statement. To prove this, why are all missiles pointed on the front , why are all jet aircraft pointed on the front, why are all the 18 wheelers putting the sloped fiberglass tops on the cabs, why are most large camper pulled by dualies and larger trucks putting the sloped front fiberglass deflectors over the cabs, why do all modern day cars have sloped windshields and sloped hoods, why are all boats pointed on the bow, imagine trying to pull a flat sided 4x8 sheet of plywood down the interstate at 70 miles per hour. Is that aerodynamic?


Now lets take that same sheet of plywood , cut it in two and reassemble it with the two pieces at a 45% angle (similar to the front of the LIL Snoozy) and you try to say that has no aerodynamic properties? Give me a break.


When the Hummer H2 SUV was first introduced I drove one. We all know that it has a blunt windshield and front end. At interstate speeds I could feel a pronounced buffeting. Needles to say I knew the gas mileage would be horrible so I did not buy one.


Is the Lil Snoozy a perfect aerodynamic shape? No but it is far superior to the flat piece of plywood or tin others are hauling down the road.


We have tried to offer as much as possible in all area's with the Lil Snoozy and have succeed in most. There is NO buffeting going down the highway, the front does not bow in like so many front caps on large campers, there is no swaying in and around 18 wheeler trucks, even the dreaded car carriers. Heck in some instances I've gotten so preoccupied that I have forgotten it was back there and almost pulled over in front of a car on the interstate. Also if you notice some of the newer highly priced campers have a very similar shape on the front as the Lil Snoozy. I wonder why they did that? Could all of their engineers be wrong?


This claim that you make about your gas milage, you state that your EPA rating is 17 mpg on the highway (we all know that those number are optimistic) Miraculously you put a fifth wheel box behind this same truck (one that sticks above his cab roof) and now you say you get 18 +/-2 MPG and has recorded 22 as your best? The laws of physics deny that possibility. Common sense says that if you put 4,000 pounds of weight behind any vehicle (regardless of aerodynamics) it will decrease gas mileage significantly. Add the presence of large blunt frontal area and you have the equation for decreased gas mileage. Come on Lets speak the truth and try to help on another. It makes camping so much more fun. Hummmmm?
I have read a lot of the comments on this site and am pleased to see most are in good faith and are trying to help one another thru this warped world we live in. I sincerely hope this continues and will also see that we do the same.
Thank you all for your words of encourage and support, I sincerely hope we will meet some day and have a beer or maybe I can offer a helping hand. Do I know it all, heck no but ask me for help and if I don't know how I will search and I try my best to help. That's just me and I have raised both my kids that way.


Sincerely
Robert Smoak (The Old Man)
Smoakin Concepts Composites

From this rant I wouldn't ever buy Lil Snoozy.
1. To pneumatic engineers air is a fluid.
2. Look all the airplanes and see home many have trailing edges that are large and flat.
3. It's not nice to pick on people that point out possible problems or improvements.
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Old 04-22-2011, 01:25 PM   #216
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Byron Kinnaman View Post
From this rant I wouldn't ever buy Lil Snoozy.
1. To pneumatic engineers air is a fluid.
2. Look all the airplanes and see home many have trailing edges that are large and flat.
3. It's not nice to pick on people that point out possible problems or improvements.
Hmmm...I want to see one in person. I'm still leaning toward something with a larger black tank...ya know...the kind you have to dump.

But I like the idea of the Lil Snoozy as an option. I hope they sell a bunch of them. Can't wait to see it in person, cassette toilet and all.

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Old 04-22-2011, 02:57 PM   #217
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From this rant I wouldn't ever buy Lil Snoozy.
1. To pneumatic engineers air is a fluid.
2. Look all the airplanes and see home many have trailing edges that are large and flat.
3. It's not nice to pick on people that point out possible problems or improvements.
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----------------------------------------

Hi Byron......I don't think he was picking on anyone at all.......I believe he was just tired of all the negative posts about his product. Maybe he took it the wrong way and maybe he didn't. That's one of the problems with the internet......it's impossible to see the body language of the other person writing their thoughts here. Mr Smoak has sunk a ton of money into a dream of his.........the last thing he would want is someone telling him how to build something he has spent most of his life doing research on. Just put yourself in his place. I honestly believe the others that feel there are better designs out there don't mean any harm......but again, it's difficult on the net to know exactly how some are coming across.

BTW....today at work I showed a few of the guys and my boss the Snoozy.....The Egg etc and asked them which one they thought was the nicest looking and best design. They ALL chose the Snoozy! I think Smoak is on to something here. I also like the queen size bed........sleep is sooooo important to me. Anyway.....like one poster said...."bring on the competition"!
I hope they succeed and I'm happy for them!
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Old 04-22-2011, 03:38 PM   #218
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Can we end this thread and move on, it is camping time and we need to get outdoors in our campers and let the business owners do what they need to do and us campers start spring cleaning. Hopefully once someone buys the product we will get an unbiased opinion as to the various attributes. I do not like the negative feeling in this thread and it is disenchanting the whole camping process. Can a moderator end it on a positive note?
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Old 04-22-2011, 03:39 PM   #219
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Originally Posted by BigLew View Post
From this rant I wouldn't ever buy Lil Snoozy.
1. To pneumatic engineers air is a fluid.
2. Look all the airplanes and see home many have trailing edges that are large and flat.
3. It's not nice to pick on people that point out possible problems or improvements.
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----------------------------------------

Hi Byron......I don't think he was picking on anyone at all.......I believe he was just tired of all the negative posts about his product. Maybe he took it the wrong way and maybe he didn't. That's one of the problems with the internet......it's impossible to see the body language of the other person writing their thoughts here. Mr Smoak has sunk a ton of money into a dream of his.........the last thing he would want is someone telling him how to build something he has spent most of his life doing research on. Just put yourself in his place. I honestly believe the others that feel there are better designs out there don't mean any harm......but again, it's difficult on the net to know exactly how some are coming across.

BTW....today at work I showed a few of the guys and my boss the Snoozy.....The Egg etc and asked them which one they thought was the nicest looking and best design. They ALL chose the Snoozy! I think Smoak is on to something here. I also like the queen size bed........sleep is sooooo important to me. Anyway.....like one poster said...."bring on the competition"!
I hope they succeed and I'm happy for them!

Maybe.. But he mentioned Kamper Bob by name.
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Old 04-22-2011, 03:53 PM   #220
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Originally Posted by cpaharley2008 View Post
Can we end this thread and move on, it is camping time and we need to get outdoors in our campers and let the business owners do what they need to do and us campers start spring cleaning. Hopefully once someone buys the product we will get an unbiased opinion as to the various attributes. I do not like the negative feeling in this thread and it is disenchanting the whole camping process. Can a moderator end it on a positive note?
Here, here! I agree.
I spent most of the day cleaning and restocking the camper! I'm ready to go spend some time in a quiet woodlands, somewhere far away...
Time to move on...
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