Battery Discussion, split from: Tow vehicle considerations-The journey - Fiberglass RV


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Old 01-15-2013, 10:48 PM   #1
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Battery Discussion, split from: Tow vehicle considerations-The journey

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Originally Posted by Alf S. View Post
Hi: All... I've found that the one variable, when you have a fiberglass trailer that could last many years, is the tug. We now have our second tow vehicle and I wanted a full 4dr. pickup but not one of the massive ones. I think we have the ideal combo now IMHO!!!
Your mileage may vary.
Alf S. North shore of Lake Erie
It looks like things are going to change drastically in the near. Check out Jay Leno's interview about this extended range full sized truck or SUV that gets 100 mpg.
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Old 01-16-2013, 08:15 AM   #2
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It looks like things are going to change drastically in the near. Check out Jay Leno's interview about this extended range full sized truck or SUV that gets 100 mpg.
That's interesting and the tech is very cool. It's a little bit misleading though on their cost comparison because when they mention how little gasoline their Volt cars have used, they did not factor in the cost of electricity they used at home while plugged in for overnight recharging. Last time I checked, Kansas City Power and Light does not provide electrical power to my house for free. More like about $.11/kW/hr. Just sayin'......
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Old 01-16-2013, 08:02 PM   #3
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That's interesting and the tech is very cool. It's a little bit misleading though on their cost comparison because when they mention how little gasoline their Volt cars have used, they did not factor in the cost of electricity they used at home while plugged in for overnight recharging. Last time I checked, Kansas City Power and Light does not provide electrical power to my house for free. More like about $.11/kW/hr. Just sayin'......
Yep, electricity isn't free. They said 32 kW batteries on board, but the graphic said 24 kW. Not sure which is correct. And they said the batts would carry the truck 40 or 50 miles before the genny kicked in. Assuming 32 kW, and figuring that it takes a little more than 32kW of plug-in electric to recharge to that level (there's always some inefficiency loss), at 11 cents/kWHr that would be between $3 and $3.25 to recharge. Which makes that first burst of electric driving equal to maybe 45 mpg or so? I wonder how it plays out on the genny use? 100 mpg equivalent just seems way over the top exaggerated.

And then there's the high cost of replacing the batteries when they wear out in 2 or 3 years, the effect on the environment of generating the electricity and of disposing or remanufacturing the batteries, the fact that our electric grid can't support a bunch of electric vehicles being charged, and so on. I like Jay Leno, but when he says this is the future, I wonder where he set down his rose-colored glasses.
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Old 01-17-2013, 06:56 PM   #4
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..............
And then there's the high cost of replacing the batteries when they wear out in 2 or 3 years,............
I don't think that this is accurate. My experience comes from owning an Escape hybrid, now 6 years old, which uses the NiMh batteries. The batteries in an electric car are not thrashed like a battery in, say, a cordless drill. My batteries are never discharged below 40% and never charged over 53 % except about once a year when it does a conditioning cycle. They have their own temperature control, even their own air conditioning coil to maintain an optimal temperature. Escape hybrids are used extensively as taxis in NY and San Francisco and many have completed 350,000 miles with the original battery pack. The Chevy Volt uses a similar strategy with its lithium ion battery and warrants the battery for 8 years or 100,000 miles.
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Old 01-17-2013, 08:11 PM   #5
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The Chevy Volt uses a similar strategy with its lithium ion battery and warrants the battery for 8 years or 100,000 miles.
Newsflash!

Source: Reuters
Date: TODAY: Jan. 17, 2013

Boeing 787's Grounded Worldwide :Lithium Batteries Problem

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Old 01-17-2013, 08:35 PM   #6
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What is your point?
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Old 01-17-2013, 09:01 PM   #7
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Hybrid cars won't fly???
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Old 01-17-2013, 10:31 PM   #8
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Hybrid cars won't fly???
Not around my shop they won't!
My 4Cyl-5spd Escape gets highway MPG equal to the Escape Hybrid at half the initial cost and a fraction of the long term maintenance costs.
I don't live in a city.
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Old 01-17-2013, 10:49 PM   #9
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What is your point?
Lithium batteries have been making the news for months as fire hazards-
But maybe you haven't heard!

Carry on!


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Old 01-18-2013, 05:49 AM   #10
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Old 01-18-2013, 07:06 AM   #11
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Originally Posted by Francesca Knowles
Lithium batteries have been making the news for months as fire hazards-
But maybe you haven't heard!

Carry on!

Francesca
You might be interested to know that gasoline and propane are extremely explosive. Please, please don't tell me you are driving around with any in your car or trailer.
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Old 01-18-2013, 09:06 AM   #12
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You might be interested to know that gasoline and propane are extremely explosive. Please, please don't tell me you are driving around with any in your car or trailer.
Apples and oranges...but thanks for the heads up!

I'll keep my eyes peeled for evidence that having either aboard under normal operating conditions is hazardous enough to warrant "grounding" my fleet...

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Old 01-18-2013, 09:40 AM   #13
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Apples and oranges...but thanks for the heads up!

I'll keep my eyes peeled for evidence that having either aboard under normal operating conditions is hazardous enough to warrant "grounding" my fleet...

Francesca
Your point, as I interpreted it, was that you have some insight that lithium ion batteries are inherently dangerous due to your association with the recent 787 groundings. And, more alarmingly, you have now discovered (evidently from my post above) that electric cars also use lithium batteries. Any new technology has a growing in period to address safety concerns. These issues will be worked out in time, just like they always are. Virtually every cell phone and lap top in the world has lithium ion batteries and the carnage has thus far been contained.
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Old 01-18-2013, 09:48 AM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Francesca Knowles View Post
Lithium batteries have been making the news for months as fire hazards-
Francesca
humm 9 volt and AA's have been making the news for years as fire hazards but most of us keep using them and have lots of them in our homes and trailers.
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Old 01-18-2013, 10:10 AM   #15
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These issues will be worked out in time, just like they always are. Virtually every cell phone and lap top in the world has lithium ion batteries and the carnage has thus far been contained.
Much "containment" thus far has involved recalls of consumer goods, mostly due to the potential for/instances of thermal runaway. LI batteries as small as those you describe pose a hazard mostly just to the item itself. As they go up in size, the hazard extends to surrounding structures/people/etc.

I for one think it unwise to be an unwitting participant in the "working it out" process you describe, at least for anything bigger than a candy bar. Furthermore, I think it a bit of a stretch to think that a general population evidently unable to keep its tires properly aired should be trusted to manage what seems to be a relatively volatile battery in the sizes required to power a car.


Quote:
With the increase in applications for these batteries, it has become apparent that there are some safety issues that need to be addressed. Batteries can catch fire if they are damaged, exposed to high temperatures ( exceeding 290F ) or packaged incorrectly. Lithium-ion battery thermal runaway reactions can exceed 1,220 F, the melting point of aluminum, a key material in airplane construction. Lithium-metal battery fires are far hotter yet.
Source of quote link

As a matter of fact, Boeing had to get a waiver to an FAA rule to put those batteries aboard the Dreamliner in the first place. ("bigger" LI batteries such as those in professional video cameras are prohibited on planes.)


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Old 01-18-2013, 10:21 AM   #16
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And yet, there must have been major auto accidents involving large lithium-ion batteries by now. If one had blown up, I'm thinking it would have made the news.
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Old 01-18-2013, 10:26 AM   #17
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Originally Posted by Francesca Knowles View Post
..........
I for one think it unwise to be an unwitting participant in the "working it out" process you describe, at least for anything bigger than a candy bar. Furthermore, I think it a bit of a stretch to think that a general population evidently unable to keep its tires properly aired should be trusted to manage what seems to be a relatively volatile battery in the sizes required to power a car.
So don't buy an electric car, or ride in a 787. Ride in a nice conventional car where only 40,000 people a year die.

Quote:
As a matter of fact, Boeing had to get a waiver to an FAA rule to put those batteries aboard the Dreamliner in the first place. ("bigger" LI batteries such as those in professional video cameras are prohibited on planes.)

Francesca.
I'm sure you know a lot more about air safety than the PhDs at the FAA and Boeing. Perhaps they should have consulted you beforehand.
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Old 01-18-2013, 06:24 PM   #18
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My experience comes from owning an Escape hybrid, now 6 years old, which uses the NiMh batteries. The batteries in an electric car are not thrashed like a battery in, say, a cordless drill. My batteries are never discharged below 40% and never charged over 53 % except about once a year when it does a conditioning cycle.
This is a good point, and experience with the same hybrid design in Toyotas is similar.

Caution is required when applying it to other vehicles. A typical hybrid has very small energy storage requirements compared to a vehicle attempting to get long electric-only range, so the typical hybrid can use the battery quite conservatively. In contrast, a pure battery-electric vehicle is more like a cordless drill. For example, the Tesla Roadster's battery management was tuned to produce impressive range, but the vehicle is infamous for destroying batteries when the owner is not sufficiently diligent in following operating procedures.

There are a couple thousand of those Tesla Roadsters out there (in service for a couple of years on average), and while a handful have killed batteries, I have not found a report of any batteries causing fires. Tesla uses lithium-ion batteries.

If anyone is interested in lithium-ion batteries, they should understand that there are several lithium-ion battery chemistries, with different characteristics. The Tesla batteries work safely despite their chemistry, which is the same as a laptop computer battery, rather than something more suitable for an electric car.
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Old 01-18-2013, 06:36 PM   #19
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........

Caution is required when applying it to other vehicles. A typical hybrid has very small energy storage requirements compared to a vehicle attempting to get long electric-only range, so the typical hybrid can use the battery quite conservatively. In contrast, a pure battery-electric vehicle is more like a cordless drill. ...........
I'm not sure what the charge/ discharge cycle is on all-electric cars. Here is Leaf warranty:

Quote:
Lithium-Ion Battery Gradual Capacity Loss:

In addition to the Lithium-Ion Battery Coverage for defects in materials or workmanship (96 months/100,000 miles), the Nissan LEAF Lithium-Ion battery is also warranted against capacity loss below nine (9) bars of capacity as shown on the vehicle's battery capacity level gauge for a period of 60 months or 60,000 miles, whichever comes first.
Volt Warranty:
Quote:
Even if you never use it, you know you’ve got a backup plan. Chevy puts the same kind of confidence behind our 8-year/100,000-mile Battery and Voltec Component Limited Warranty.†
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Old 01-18-2013, 08:18 PM   #20
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Remember what the Wizard said to the original strawman?
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